KLM incident at SPL
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May I respectfully disagree 100% 
Yes - that does confirm the de-icing is complete... it does not mean there are no vehicles stuck / working behind you in a universal worldwide fashion.
Hence my comment above... to make it more bullet proof, you as crew, insist 100% that you receive a postive radio call/response to "all vehicles and personnel clear". Hate to use CYA, but at least in this case it is also on the CVR
NoD
and good confirmation the process is complete
Yes - that does confirm the de-icing is complete... it does not mean there are no vehicles stuck / working behind you in a universal worldwide fashion.Hence my comment above... to make it more bullet proof, you as crew, insist 100% that you receive a postive radio call/response to "all vehicles and personnel clear". Hate to use CYA, but at least in this case it is also on the CVR
NoD
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Obviously, the procedure for ensuring the aircraft was clear of GSE/personnel failed.
Make this procedure more robust & sustainable to prevent a recurrence.
That is what is needed, not a blame game, when peoples lives are clearly at risk.
Make this procedure more robust & sustainable to prevent a recurrence.
That is what is needed, not a blame game, when peoples lives are clearly at risk.
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Make this procedure more robust & sustainable to prevent a recurrence. That is what is needed, not a blame game, when peoples lives are clearly at risk.
Needs some refinement - but ........ any other ideas. Only simple ideas that aren't affected by blocked radio transmissions etc.
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There's clearly a disconnect between the flight deck and the ground crew.
I'm thinking that getting representatives from both groups together is critical, as stated above,and that there should become an international standard.
But I think the first thing that needs to be expressed to the ground crew is that the flight deck can't see below them, to the left, to the right, or behind.... the flight deck can't see if anyone is in/around the aircraft.
Interestingly, this is not a problem backing out of the gate because someone is driving the push-back cart and they can see all around the aircraft.
So we're going to see this problem occur during de-icing more than anywhere else, when the de-icing is not happening at the gate - and maybe that's why some airports went to gate de-icing in the first place - if the de-icing is taking place at the same location in the taxi then there could be a "supervisor" in a jeep who drives in front of the plane and moves only when it's all clear.
At any rate, there needs to be a standard in place the prevents this type of thing from happening again. It gives a really bad impression to the public when a plane runs into the ground crew at 2 miles an hour.
I'm thinking that getting representatives from both groups together is critical, as stated above,and that there should become an international standard.
But I think the first thing that needs to be expressed to the ground crew is that the flight deck can't see below them, to the left, to the right, or behind.... the flight deck can't see if anyone is in/around the aircraft.
Interestingly, this is not a problem backing out of the gate because someone is driving the push-back cart and they can see all around the aircraft.
So we're going to see this problem occur during de-icing more than anywhere else, when the de-icing is not happening at the gate - and maybe that's why some airports went to gate de-icing in the first place - if the de-icing is taking place at the same location in the taxi then there could be a "supervisor" in a jeep who drives in front of the plane and moves only when it's all clear.
At any rate, there needs to be a standard in place the prevents this type of thing from happening again. It gives a really bad impression to the public when a plane runs into the ground crew at 2 miles an hour.
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No remorse....who requested de-ice????
It's like Christmas, it happens every year.....same time and plenty of time to prepare for the next and the next and the next.........
Feel sorry for the guy in hospital though
It's like Christmas, it happens every year.....same time and plenty of time to prepare for the next and the next and the next.........
Feel sorry for the guy in hospital though
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Moi/, there should be no need as there is already someone in such a position. The set up at AMS for remote de-icing is that the pad supervisor is in contact with the rigs, de-icing control and the aircraft. He is also mobile (small Mercedes 4x4) and from that position, should be able to determine that all de-icing trucks are clear. On completion of de-icing, you are told the start of your holdover time, the fluid/s used and the last phrase normally uttered is "...and all de-icing vehicles are now clear. Please re-contact Ground for taxi."
What is unclear is what knocked the truck over. Was it the tail or was it jet blast? Either way, the de-icing truck was vulnerable as soon as it had completed it task.
PM
What is unclear is what knocked the truck over. Was it the tail or was it jet blast? Either way, the de-icing truck was vulnerable as soon as it had completed it task.
PM
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I think the simplest answer is that in de-icing areas you have a stopbar operated by the de-icers.
And I know that people will say that lighting should only be controlled by ATC, but I know at Tulla behind the Menzies cargo shed, we could control airfield lighting.
Food for thought.
And I know that people will say that lighting should only be controlled by ATC, but I know at Tulla behind the Menzies cargo shed, we could control airfield lighting.
Food for thought.
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Keep it stupid simple
In CDG, one of the de-icing trucks in front of the A/C keeps its crane right in front of the cockpit windows (2 meters or so). I mean right in front of your nose ! It is impossible to start taxiing before de-icing supervisor declares the area clear of personnel/vehicles. Then only the crane is removed from view... This makes de-icing ops a little slower than e.g. in scandinavian countries but is definitely safer. FFT.
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bid deal,
someone almost got killed. who knows he couldve gotten stuck in the flaps and got a free ride to st.maarten.
in any ways, it's a sad incident,.. in now way able to blame the cockpit crew in such stupid ways as i read above..., cause in those pilots minds, they are not moving until receiving a all clear from those guys out there.
if they didnt get it and they moved, it was an honest mistake by the crew.
if they got the all clear and they moved and hit the guy, it was an honest mistake the ground personnel.
either way its a mistake that happened.
let the investigation clear it out and dont hate the klm game, cause it's a solid game!
now suck it
someone almost got killed. who knows he couldve gotten stuck in the flaps and got a free ride to st.maarten.
in any ways, it's a sad incident,.. in now way able to blame the cockpit crew in such stupid ways as i read above..., cause in those pilots minds, they are not moving until receiving a all clear from those guys out there.
if they didnt get it and they moved, it was an honest mistake by the crew.
if they got the all clear and they moved and hit the guy, it was an honest mistake the ground personnel.
either way its a mistake that happened.
let the investigation clear it out and dont hate the klm game, cause it's a solid game!
now suck it
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I was told by a trusted ( trustable ) source the crew finished de-icing, and went beyond the safety line(s) so the AC could depart. As it did, unfortunately turning right too quickly or too sharply hitting the truck with the rear stabilo.
I found below references made / distributed by ATCBox member Curly
I found below references made / distributed by ATCBox member Curly
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Lots of talk about cones, trucks, people etc. being placed in front of the aircraft whilst de icing takes place. Would it not be simpler to place chocks under the nosewheel which are only removed by the supervisor once all vehicles are clear? That way, even if the crew start to move too soon, they won't be going too far!
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How about doing away with trucks altogether, and have a fixed gantry under which every aircraft passed as part of the taxy. Since there's a mandated maximum width of aircraft, then having a gantry wider than this with downward facing sprinklers below it would enable aircraft to be fully de-iced both wings at a time without fear of missing a wing or missing a section. Traffic lights on the gantry would allow control. Would eventually be cheaper than vehicles as well, and would be yet another aide-memoire for those trying to take off from the taxyway too.
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Some 20 years ago, unsure where the de-ice truck was, the skipper asked me to go out in the cabin to visually check (looking out of the windows) if I could see it.
The brain is an amazing thing, with almost unlimited powers.......if used
The brain is an amazing thing, with almost unlimited powers.......if used
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.... fixed gantry under which every aircraft passed as part of the taxy.
http://www.energysolutionscenter.org...ft_deicing.pdf
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Lots of talk about cones, trucks, people etc. being placed in front of the aircraft whilst de icing takes place. Would it not be simpler to place chocks under the nosewheel which are only removed by the supervisor once all vehicles are clear? That way, even if the crew start to move too soon, they won't be going too far!
"Keptin, I'm givvin her all she's got, but she just won't move!"
Full Power Taxi
Takes nothing like full power ...
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I'm not going to even begin to go into the reasons of why it is a bad idea, but my God is it a bad idea.
