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Graded Assertiveness Training Models

Old 23rd Nov 2010, 09:23
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Question Graded Assertiveness Training Models

Hi all -
Can anyone give me a potted summary of the various types of graded assertiveness protocols taught by airlines around the world? I'm assuming there are almost as many variations as there are airlines.

My understanding is that many airlines use a derivative of Besco's original 4-step P.A.C.E.(Probe-Alert-Challenge-Emergency) algorithm. I know Qantas had their own 4-step variant on this, but has since moved on to a 5-step version.

Other airlines I believe use a 3-step 'CUS' ('I am Concerned'/'I am Uncomfortable'/'This is a Safety Issue') protocol, but I don't know what airlines teach this. Does anyone know what Korean Airlines teach?

I have read elsewhere an author suggesting that someone is teaching pilots a 6-step algorithm, but I can't confirm the source. This seems like a lot of escalation to get to the point. Does anyone know if there's an airline that teaches a 6-step protocol?

To those of you familiar with various types, which is your preferred protocol?

Thanks

Last edited by MrBrico; 23rd Nov 2010 at 09:24. Reason: Inaccuracy
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Old 24th Nov 2010, 23:25
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Question Let me rephrase the question...

Hello again -

Thank you for reading my post, but I was actually hoping for an answer or two...

Perhaps if I just ask a general question first:

If you work for a commercial airline, what graded assertiveness protocol were you taught/do you teach?

In particular, I'm interested in Asian and North American airlines.

Thanks

Last edited by MrBrico; 25th Nov 2010 at 05:30.
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Old 25th Nov 2010, 18:15
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The problem with discussion of these schemes, I find, is that I often wonder if whilst the other guy was about to pile me in a mountainside I would be wondering what the E stood for.

Or whether just to take control if the other guy is task focussed and lost SA.

Get above safety altitude and discuss once safely on the ground if ANYONE has doubts. I have seen far too much ego from time to time from the other seat. If someone voices a concern, and its leaning towards the safer option, you HAVE to assume they are right and you are wrong.
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Old 25th Nov 2010, 18:17
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I love these threads....

Here's my take on CRM,....from the perspective of a pilot flying a Citation Encore Single pilot...

Level 1- Captain is that a mountain up ahead?
Level 2- Captain I think that is a mountain up ahead
Level 3- Captain I think we are headed into that mountain
Level 4- Captain we will hit that mountain in 5 minutes
Level 5- Captain if you don't change course, I am calling dispatch
Level 6- Captain, dispatch says you need to avoid the mountain
Level 7- Captain, the chief pilot says you need to avoid the mountain
Level 8 - Captain, the stewardess's and passengers took a vote and think you should avoid the mountain
Level 8 - Captain, I am considering taking the controls
Level 9- Captain, I am really, really considering taking the controls
Level 10- I don't mean to hurt your feelings but I am taking the controls
Level 11- Now that I have the controls, but only have 200 hours can you confirm I am on on the right heading and will not hit anything?
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Old 25th Nov 2010, 18:25
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Thats all well and good, but he will probably be too task focussed to acknowledge what you are trying to tell him.

Hearing is the first thing to go once you get overloaded.
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Old 28th Nov 2010, 19:45
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Please clarify

So is the consensus then that Graded Assertiveness is nice in theory but not of any practical use to real pilots?
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Old 28th Nov 2010, 19:53
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By the way

johns7022 your reply was very funny Totally unhelpful, but had a good chuckle, thanks.
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Old 29th Nov 2010, 10:57
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So is the consensus then that Graded Assertiveness is nice in theory but not of any practical use to real pilots?
Thats about it. Handy only if you feel the compelling need to cover your backside by speaking loudly in the direction of the CVR.
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Old 3rd Dec 2010, 10:22
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CRM

Ever since the old TAA got into the CRM business there has been for and against or love or hate of CRM

In the earlier days it was often called " Sit in the bathtub and hold hands brigade". Air Niugini called it a Flight Crew Management Course and used the SARI categories (S:seek, A:act, R:react, I:inform )

In my own view, there is probably a need for some of it but in a real emergency where time is critical, you may not have enough seconds left to discuss things.

Tmb
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Old 5th Dec 2010, 23:28
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So I am curious, when the plane is about to hit the mountain...what is the most assertive that your scared little FO is going to be according to the CRM model: Harsh language?
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Old 6th Dec 2010, 00:43
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Great thing about being single pilot, you're always right even if you're dead right!

--my first F-100 IP

Now, 1,400 hours of single pilot fighter time and a 1,000 of single pilot check hauling later, he was right. Since then, 7,000 hours with crews taught me, CRM can make the difference of being wrong and dead or right and alive. Now, address working with a crew, please

GF
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Old 6th Dec 2010, 05:34
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Focusing my question

Thank you Galaxy Flyer.

So - to redirect my question - to those of you who work in aircrews: Are you taught a Graded Assertiveness protocol in your CRM program? Which one?
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Old 6th Dec 2010, 06:21
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The team concept...where you rely on the other guy to catch that increasing deck angle over Roselawn....catch the yoke, when you adjust your seat.....catch your approach stall going into Buffalo.....catch that firelight before you pull it off.......

Call for back up...man down...you watch my back, I'll watch yours......911..come quick......

25% of the casualties in Vietnam were from friendly fire...I would imagine that's about 12,000+ soldiers, who if we could ask their ghosts, might surmise in hindsight, that they would have been better off by themselves, and not needed the 'help'
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Old 6th Dec 2010, 11:57
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Uh thanks

That one was less funny, still unhelpful and a little scary.

There is no such thing as a 'team concept' the way you describe it. It's not an option. If there's more than one person in the cockpit, the reality is, you already have a 'team'. The only option you have is whether it's functional or dysfunctional. CRM, I thought, was about making functional teams the product of skill rather than luck and arrogance.

Not really sure how the 'friendly fire' analogy really relates to team dynamics, but after Tenerife, Dryden, Portland, Cove Neck and any number of other really relevant examples, do we really need to be re-explaining the rational basis of CRM to pilots on a Safety and CRM thread?

Back to my original question...
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Old 6th Dec 2010, 19:00
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Brico - I don't think the team concept is a 'given'....you can choose to join an organization that pairs you off with a 200 HR pay to fly FO that you have to watch like a hawk, or walk jungle trails with an 18 year old PFC who has a non safetied M16 pointed at your back all day. Your call, I am making the choice to work with who I want, rather then working in a situation where most likely I have thrust upon me, someone that has just become a liability, not a help.

I am not sold on the pilot crew concept...as two pilot crews seem to keep dumping planes, with all of us wondering 'what the other guy was doing, when pilot #1 adjusted his seat, didn't flip the right switch' ect.

Ten years ago, the argument was a three person crew vs 2....it will go single pilot gentlemen, with maybe a UAV operator on the ground....
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Old 7th Dec 2010, 06:48
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You're probably right, johns7022, but until pilots are all replaced by drones, those aircrews that consist of more than one person in the cockpit (or in the plane for that matter) are going to be in teams, and the evidence suggests that that those teams who were not trained to communicate and coordinate their activities well have in the past flown into other planes, or into mountains, or run out of fuel, or not noticed there was too much ice on the wing, or forgotten to depressurise the doors after successfully landing a plane on fire, or not taken over command of the plane fast enough when the captain had a heart attack etc. etc. On the other hand other aircrews have saved hundreds of lives not just through good technical flying, but through communicating and working well together in a crisis. Do you really think that stuff comes naturally to everyone? I'd agree that some people can't be taught anything, and they probably shouldn't be pilots, but do you really think pilots who have to work in aircrews do not benefit from CRM training? I'm intrigued.
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Old 7th Dec 2010, 10:35
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CRM is for FOs that know they are going to hit the mountain, but don't have the stones to say anything...
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Old 10th Dec 2010, 22:45
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Gimme a break

johns7022 and everyone, I just want to know what Graded Assertiveness protocol you were taught or what you teach, if any. PACE? CUS? Something else? 4-step? 3-step? Rhumba? Cha-Cha? We can debate if it's crap or not later. I'm trying to get a handle on the range of tools being taught - that's all. Please help.
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Old 11th Dec 2010, 03:19
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I was never taught a nice way to explain to the captain that we are going to hit the mountain that he is flying us into.

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Old 14th Dec 2010, 11:55
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And then there is the polite first officer who observing the landing gear was still up at the outer marker says "would you like the gear down now captain - or would you prefer to concentrate on the instrument approach?
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