Poor Airmanship? Pilots reading non-relevent material in the cockpit during flight.

[choppingmotion]

This thread puts me in mind of the old chestnut that an Airbus is designed to be flown by a man and a dog. The man's job is to feed the dog. The dog's job is to bite the man if he touches anything.

[pilot999]

best you stick to Earlys as their are never any papers on the first few sectors , whilst on lates you have a wonderful selection including second edition, magazines etc.

[TopTup]

CRM Dying a Slow Death....?

An interesting thread but I see it more based on common courtesy and professionalism that appears to be void here and regarding this topic.

So what if the CP hasn't the backbone to implement (his own) SOP's? Should we stoop to that level.... And we've all flown with poor CP's and great CP's.

Every SOP I've ever read or worked under has a statement along the lines of "any procedures outside of company SOP's require a special briefing....." So, if you want to read, or pull out your laptop then employ some damn basic CRM!!! Ask your fellow pilot if he minds if you read for a bit, or look at something on your laptop. There is your "special briefing" and hence both pilots are in the loop and aware of each other. And, if your fellow pilot does mind (FO or Capt!!!) then show him/her the respect they deserve. They have their reason for doing so. (Imagine an FO with issues you as Capt are not aware of...perhaps personal issues and they know they are not "with it" today, yet an arrogant Capt dismisses the FO's needs).

Personally, give me an FO (any pilot) reading something & checking the flight plan, instruments, etc routinely than doing the head drop & bounce as they fall asleep yet try to force themselves awake. And at the same time, 45 mins - 1 hr before descent all attention should be completely on the task at hand....same with ETOPS Entry Points, and diversion airports, wx updates, etc. And it's just RUDE not to mention unprofessional to force your colleague to do all the work as you indulge in some "me time" by getting completely engrossed in other things.

It's called professionalism, courtesy and just plain common sense and all within the scope of SOP's (as I understand it).

[John Citizen]

I had a really good captain today.

On the way on the aircraft, he stopped at the newsagent and purchased 1 newspaper, and possibly 2 magazines. I had my own literature to read. The cabin crew also bought up some papers from the back.

The time went by very fast and we both got the job done.

Another great day at work.

[PBL]

I think it's a good question. Is reading non-pertinent material during relatively un-busy times a danger? An inappropriate activity? An appropriate activity? A safety benefit?

Danger would be inattention to indications that something was going wrong with the flight. The Zantop 931 case is not decisive: other personnel may have behaved differently also when reading. And most inattention incidents do not involve reading: think of China Air Lines 1985 over the Pacific, who suffered a LOC when they lost some power on an engine; they weren't reading, although human-factors issues were all over that (I understand that that inquiry was a watershed for investigating fatigue and biorhythm issues). Or Colgan. And it is not clear to me that non-pertinent conversation, as suggested by one respondent, is any degree less inattentive than reading, although I am happy to be persuaded otherwise.

Is it inappropriate? NTSB apparently said yes, in the Zantop report. Would they think that now?

Is it appropriate? Some views here hold that it is.

Is it a benefit? Some here suggest that it can keep you awake and alert on long-haul or medium-haul. In which case one could imagine it would decrease, not increase, susceptibility to inattention errors. Napping is, after all, an inattention scenario.

Seems like a worthwhile issue to work out.

PBL

[IGh]

PBL asked this question in his thoughtful response, of the 25th, concerning reading:

"...Is it inappropriate? NTSB apparently said yes, in the Zantop report. Would they think that now?"

During the NTSB's recent "Professionalism in Aviation" Safety Forum on May 18–20, the Board did express a general concern on such subjects:Out of Bounds (Expanded Version) | Flight Safety Foundation

"... the NTSB asked ... about opportunities to strengthen defenses against deficiencies such as lapses of discipline, distractions and deviations ... lax, casual or unfocused atmosphere on the flight deck; inexplicable deviations from SOPs; self-centered behavior; substandard airmanship; loss of situational or positional awareness; reluctance of pilots to challenge each other’s deviations ..." ["NTSB delves into theories of why airline pilots ... strayed from professional behavior."]

[The African Dude]

Hey Chesty, I'll take a punt on the answer 'lookout' seeing as nobody else has!

[Chesty Morgan]

What should he be doing ? Can you expect him to read your mind and know everything you want without you asking for it ?

His job. It's written down in our OPS manual, therefore, I have no need to tell him what to do unless he's not doing it.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Well that's not how in works in the airline where I work.

I'm amazed that you can actually, vehemently, say that I am wrong. Bearing in mind you don't know which airline I fly for and what our SOPs are. But then you back track a bit and say not in your airline anyway.

Below is an extract from the Airbus QRH

So? Airbus isn't an airline it's an aircraft manufacturer. If my airline choose, as they rightly can, to tell us what the roles of PF and PNF are then that's what we do.

The bottom line is that PNF, in my airline, cannot do his job properly and effectively if he's engrossed in a novel. And, in fact, neither can PF.

PNF duties include, but are not limited to, getting enroute weather. Which enroute weather he gets is up to the captain.

NO specified duties for the PNF in the cruise

So you're airline doesn't really need you there then?

ECAM MEMO/SYS PAGES.....REVIEW
FLIGHT PROGRESS.....CHECK
FUEL....MONITOR
NAV ACCURACY....CHECK
RADAR TILT...ADJUST
CABIN TEMP.....MONITOR
TCAS.....BLW

Is that your exhaustive list for things that need to be done in flight?

I had a really good captain today.

On the way on the aircraft, he stopped at the newsagent and purchased 1 newspaper, and possibly 2 magazines. I had my own literature to read. The cabin crew also bought up some papers from the back.

I find it interesting that you judge a captain to be really good because he bought a newspaper and let you read it.

Tell me John, if your captain had quietly and unceremoniously died today when would you have noticed? When he dropped his book?

The African Dude

Bingo, keep a good lookout. Something that many pilots seem to have forgotten.

Is it ok to keep your eyes in because we've got TCAS? Is it ok not to navigate because we've got autotuning and autopilot. Is it ok not to monitor because nothing ever goes wrong?

Reliance on technology is eroding basic airmanship and ability.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Reliance on technology is eroding basic airmanship and ability

Agreed, but I would suggest in the context of this thread the level of automation and its levels of reliability on modern jet transport a/c means the reading of newspapers, magazines etc is really not a safety issue on a two-pilot a/c, in the cruise phase of flight. There is a marked difference between becoming "engrossed" in a book and losing all sense of what is going on around you, and reading a newspaper whike maintaining an awareness of what is going on. The initial paperwork at top of climb for PNF on one of our longer sectors (SSH, HRG etc) will take at least 4-5 minutes. Head down. Occasional glance around to stay in the loop. I find light reading of something other than the flight plan would involves something similar.

Is it ok to keep your eyes in because we've got TCAS? Is it ok not to navigate because we've got autotuning and autopilot. Is it ok not to monitor because nothing ever goes wrong?

Again, on a sector upwards of 3 hours? You can do all of these things while affording a bit of time to do a crossword or read something. I admire your work ethic, I just don't deem such a high level of arousal necessary for hours on end in a highly automated cruise phase of flight. I would be shattered before we were even half-way through the day.

[Chesty Morgan]

BMRR, I have said that my point of view concerns the 'hour and a half at the most' cruise type of operation. I agree with you about long/medium haul stuff where the reality of low arousal is more apparent.

That said I've seen with my own eyes and on more than one occasion somebody miss several radio calls in a row. Why? They were either concentrating on a crossword or reading a book. Or, to use your words if I may, they lost all sense of what's going on around them. I know we all miss radio calls occasionally but to miss half a dozen in the matter of 10 minutes is going beyond reasonable. What else would they miss?

To clarify my point it is easier to emerge yourself in a novel or the paper than in an Ops manual or something like the QRH. Therefore, I don't condone zero reading in flight but read something that you're not going to lose yourself in. And having thought more about this today I think the real problem is the attitude of the "book readers" rather than the fact that they are actually reading.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Ok fair point. To repeatedly miss radio calls is suggesting a serious loss of SA. I agree with you regarding attitude, while I admit I do read non-ops material I do so knowing it is far from the primary task in hand.

On a similar issue I personally don't ever partake in 'controlled rest' but fly with a lot of guys who do, some on sectors of the length you mention, and I am suprised that even in a short haul environment this is deemed par for the course by my airline. Though that reflects the attitude of my outfit to FTLs and how they roster their crew, which is another matter!

[John Citizen]

The bottom line is that PNF, in my airline, cannot do his job properly and effectively if he's engrossed in a novel. And, in fact, neither can PF.

In my airline, I see the job being done very effectively every day whilst both the PF and PNF might by reading.

If no one was reading, it would not make any difference at all here.

But most importantly, I want to enjoy my job and enjoy the people I work with.

This job would be far less enjoyable if I would not be able to kill the occasional boredom by reading if I so desire.

This job would also be far less enjoyable flying with others who disallowed this luxury.

I want to enjoy my time at work and for others to enjoy flying with me.

Unfortunately not everyone thinks this way

I want my fellow work colleagues to speak well about me behind my back. I wonder what they all say about you ? You think they all enjoy flying with you and look forward to it ? Probably you don't care.

[A37575]

Reliance on technology is eroding basic airmanship and ability.

That fact has been discussed and known for years. Countless research papers and symposiums have done the subject to death. All this matters nothing to manufacturers and airline operations management who still push the blind use of full automation ad nauseum. Cadet first officers who have known nothing except button pushing are the captains of the future where basic airmanship is laughed at as old fashioned crap.

[Rwy in Sight]

And here goes where a friend of mine (who is a PPRuNer and I hope does not read this) and a FO for European operator explained to me that airmanship is not necessary. What you need according to him is to be a good system operator and know how to bring the aircraft where the manufacturer wants it to be at each phase of the flight - and how to bring it back if it departed the point.

I don't want to derail the thread but I wanted to vent.

Rwy in Sight

[Chesty Morgan]

I want my fellow work colleagues to speak well about me behind my back. I wonder what they all say about you ? You think they all enjoy flying with you and look forward to it ? Probably you don't care.

John, you're right. I don't care what anyone says about me behind my back. Being a captain or first officer isn't a popularity contest. What I do want people to do is to respect my position, rank and authority (as I do theirs) and if I ask them to do something then they should do it. With the usual disclaimers of dangerous or illegal requests. If they enjoy flying with me then that's ok, if they don't that's ok too. As long as they do their job as I do mine.

In my airline, I see the job being done very effectively every day whilst both the PF and PNF might by reading.

Are you serious? Both pilots reading? Who's monitoring who, what and how? Can you really say with any authority that two pilots reading at the same time is as safe as two pilots monitoring at the same time?

But most importantly, I want to enjoy my job and enjoy the people I work with.

Except you can't enjoy your job without partaking in something that is irrelevant, not part of that job and to be honest quite antisocial! How do you think people enjoy your company when you've got your nose buried in the latest Mills and Boon?

The most important thing is to actually do your job whether you enjoy it or not.

A37575,

And that's where self-discipline and professionalism should play a part. We need to use technology and the automatics rather than rely on them completely.

It should fall on us to maintain that discipline, pass it on, encourage others to use it and not let them start down the slippery slope of what essentially amounts to laziness.

Unfortunately too many people these days see that kind of thing as an afront to their right to do whatever the hell they feel like. Tough.

To paraphrase Mrs T, this man is not for turning!

[John Citizen]

I don't care what anyone says about me behind my back. Being a captain or first officer isn't a popularity contest. What I do want people to do is to respect my position, rank and authority

I find it hard to believe that you can respect someone if you do not like them.

Also be very careful about any food and beverages from out the back

Every day flight crew make small errors, and multi crew is about helping each other and supporting each other.

There are many FO's out there who I believe would get tremendous satisfaction seeing a Captain they dislike completely make a mess of something rather than help him out.

I know this is very poor CRM and I do not practice this, but I am sure others do.

Example :
Capt criticised FO for using non-standard phraseology (eg. check not checked)

Later on, "Capt perfect" parks at the wrong aerobridge (I almost seen it happen at least more then once, but I spoke up).

The FO sits there with big grin on his face thinking "you are far from perfect too".

Now what were you saying about standard phraseology captain perfect ? Is that more important than parking at the correct bay ? Who is the d!ckhead now ?

[John Citizen]

Except you can't enjoy your job without partaking in something that is irrelevant, not part of that job and to be honest quite antisocial! How do you think people enjoy your company when you've got your nose buried in the latest Mills and Boon?

I normally let the captain lead the way, as I know there a few in the minority who discourage reading.

If he reads, then I usually read as well.

If he doesn't read, then usually neither will I.

If the conversation has run dry and we got absolutely nothing to talk about anymore, then I do not see it as antisocial.

[mrdeux]

I've had various theories on this over the years. So, on a two man medium haul operation, where you don't have any crew relief, I consider a short period of reading to be your break. But you won't be sitting there for hours reading a novel. Probably 30 minutes tops.

On long haul ops, with extra crew, then you have ample time to read when off the flight deck.

Domestic ops...not at all.

[Chesty Morgan]

I find it hard to believe that you can respect someone if you do not like them.

I didn't say that. What I said was I expect them to respect my position, rank and authority. As I also respect theirs. It's professional respect, personality shouldn't come into it.

Do you like every single person who you work with, personally? Probably not but you still, I hope, respect them professionally.

I know this is very poor CRM and I do not practice this, but I am sure others do.

It's not only poor CRM it's unprofessional and dangerous. Bottom line is if my F/O knowingly allowed me to make a mistake he would be off my aeroplane in very short order.

I normally let the captain lead the way, as I know there a few in the minority who discourage reading.

Ok, that's fair enough. Although I still maintain my point of view.

Anyway, we digress.

[The African Dude]

SOPs only cover Standard situations... hence the name! Airmanship forms the basis of these instructions.

People don't want or feel inclined to act as a good resource to a colleague they disrespect or cannot communicate with.