Some opinions about following situation
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Some opinions about following situation
Hello,I would appreciate if we could discuss following situation which occured a few weeks ago.On a longhaul flight from Europe to Asia with enlarged crew (crew coming from Europe) the First Officer was the pilot flying, and of course, the Captain was the pilot monitoring.During the approach briefing the FO explained the Captain that he will disconnect the Autothrottle for the approach for training purposes. After a rest of a few hours in the bunker the FO was feeling fit and the weather forecast for our destination was good. Before I continue I have to say that in our SOPs nothing is mentioned about the using of A/THR for the approach. We are encouraged by our training department to land the aircraft from time to time without the full automation.The Captain, after listening to the FO, said that he will not accept this. He said that no FO is allowed to fly without A/THR as long as he is the PIC. The FO asked the skipper to show him in the SOPs or in any other book the passage about the using of the A/THR. Because we were approaching our destination, the FO decided to land with the A/THR engaged to avoid any further discussions and to talk about that issue after landing with the Captain. After landing, the Captain said it was more a personel thing, it is not forbidden to switch off the A/THR according our procedures.Now here my question, is the captain authorized to decide what level of automation the FO must use and how to land the aircraft? Finally, it was more a personel thing,he was the PM and the experienced FO was PF on that leg. How far can he go? Our company procedures doesn´t say anything about it, and once again, the training department has encouraged us to fly without the full automation if the conditions are o.k.Looking forward to hear from you guys some statementsWish you always happy landingsNIK_
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It's a 2 or 3 man operation in there and we have to take the concensus view in this sort of situation. The FO may be feeling rested and happy to fly with manual thrust, but that doesn't mean the Captain was ready for the extra workload which was likely to be imposed on him by the FOs practice. Ultimately as the Captain it's his decision how the aircraft is flown, and if he's the kind of man who doesn't like people flying manual thrust then so be it. He may have a good reason for it, or he may not, but he's PIC so gets to make the final call. I'd chalk the whole affair up to experience and just fly my next manual thrust approach with a Captain who's amenable to the idea. Mentioning the idea in the pre-flight briefing will give him maximum time to get comfortable with the idea.
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Hand Solo is correct.
I personally am very happy for guys to fly without the automatics, but I know for a fact that not all captains are. At the end of the day it is a 2 crew operation, if he isn't happy with the automatics out then they must stay in. I like to fly with everything out occasionally, but if the F/O can give me good reason why he would rather I didn't I would respect that.
I personally am very happy for guys to fly without the automatics, but I know for a fact that not all captains are. At the end of the day it is a 2 crew operation, if he isn't happy with the automatics out then they must stay in. I like to fly with everything out occasionally, but if the F/O can give me good reason why he would rather I didn't I would respect that.
I personally am very happy for guys to fly without the automatics, but I know for a fact that not all captains are.
This is often seen with newly graduated low hour first officers who have very little hands-on flying during their type rating training in the simulator. Where automation is encouraged right from the word go in simulators this inevitably sows the seeds for a future automation -reliant pilot who has minimal pure flying skills. Then one day in the future where the automation packs it in or is grossly mis-handled in IMC especially, the scene is set for potential disaster. See the instances below..
Pilots who have lost their confidence in their ability to hand fly accurately particularly on raw data, should seek professional counselling because loss of personal confidence is an aviation medical matter. Certainly they should be retrained in the simulator. Occasions have been known to arise in IMC or at night when quick reversion to manual flying may be needed to rectify a serious flight path deviation.
There is are no shortage of accidents caused by pilots lacking competency at manual flying and relying heavily on the automatic pilot to recover a situation of their own making. Adam Air Indonesia B737, Flash Air B737, Kenya Airways B737 and very probably Egypt Air 737 accidents all come to mind.
Last edited by Centaurus; 15th May 2010 at 07:07.
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The Pilot Standard Debate
Centaurus:
Your post No:4 gets to the heart of the issue, I hope the relevant people see common sense and start to take action to overcome this problem.
Tmb
Your post No:4 gets to the heart of the issue, I hope the relevant people see common sense and start to take action to overcome this problem.
Tmb
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Hello,
once again thank you very much for your statements
I´m working since 5 years as FO and I suppose that most of you guys are more experienced than me, but I am still wondering why some people are so much afraid of it? Our profession is to fly airplanes in a safe way, and safety has always the highest priority, but what happen if some day you must fly without the full automation? I wouldn´t feel very comfortable as passenger if I knew that a pilot is not able to fly his aircraft without all the automation.
I am trying to fly a lot by hand if the rest of the crew is feeling happy with it, but in my example that I mentioned before it´s hard for me to understand the attitude of the skipper. I realy respect the captain as the final authority, but at least I would appreciate any explanation if he decides like that.
happy landings
NIK_
once again thank you very much for your statements
I´m working since 5 years as FO and I suppose that most of you guys are more experienced than me, but I am still wondering why some people are so much afraid of it? Our profession is to fly airplanes in a safe way, and safety has always the highest priority, but what happen if some day you must fly without the full automation? I wouldn´t feel very comfortable as passenger if I knew that a pilot is not able to fly his aircraft without all the automation.
I am trying to fly a lot by hand if the rest of the crew is feeling happy with it, but in my example that I mentioned before it´s hard for me to understand the attitude of the skipper. I realy respect the captain as the final authority, but at least I would appreciate any explanation if he decides like that.
happy landings
NIK_
I wonder if the outcome would have been slightly different if the FO had raised the issue with the Captain pre-flight, giving adequate time for discussion. On approach is perhaps a bit late for it to be discussed in any detail.
G
G
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Dear Nick_
The First Officer´s CRM is EXCELLENT
The First Officer´s NOTECHS is EXCELLENT
To fly, work with that FO would be a HONOUR for me.
Not only the FO was able to realized about the gap of the Captain..., but also the FO avoided an argument during the flight(approaching) and then... talk to his Captain. EXCELLENT
I suggest that the FO must talk to the Fleet Chief, about the Captain´s gap...
GOOD JOB¡¡
The First Officer´s CRM is EXCELLENT
The First Officer´s NOTECHS is EXCELLENT
To fly, work with that FO would be a HONOUR for me.
Not only the FO was able to realized about the gap of the Captain..., but also the FO avoided an argument during the flight(approaching) and then... talk to his Captain. EXCELLENT
I suggest that the FO must talk to the Fleet Chief, about the Captain´s gap...
GOOD JOB¡¡
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Hi,
that issue was already discussed within the training department.
The FO is a realy good pilot and person and I realy admire his attitude, he handled that situation very professional!
So all of you guys, thank for very much for your good posts
Wish you happy and safe landings always
NIK_
that issue was already discussed within the training department.
The FO is a realy good pilot and person and I realy admire his attitude, he handled that situation very professional!
So all of you guys, thank for very much for your good posts
Wish you happy and safe landings always
NIK_
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Kind of two different subjects here, I'll have a go at offering my opininon on both:
Firstly, it is my opinion that the captain has absolute power to decide on the level of automation. Again, it's a two (or three) man crew, and the crew is not stronger that it's weakest link. Of course the atmosphere should be such that it's possible to sensibly discuss the pros and cons at the right time, but I certainly wouldn't challenge the skipper on this one. Don't get me wrong; there are times when decisions must be challenged, but pick your fights carefully.
Secondly, on the level of automation, or rather on the confidence level of new FOs: I made the jump from flight instruction on singles and light twins with no AP/FD, to a commercial twin turboprop all-weather operation, with about 1850 hours total. At the time I was very comfortable with hand flying (it was all I knew) and very uncomfortable with automation. Thus; the type rating course was quite intensive on automation, and the company actively encourages it for all phases of flight. This would moreover continue into line training and subsequent release; it's quite another way to fly. It doesn't replace manual skills; it's a complement, but like everything else it takes time to become proficient in it's use. Since various levels of automation are mutually exclusive, you cannot practice one without losing out on practicing the other; and since I felt automation was my weakest link, that is naturally what I wanted to do.
As time progresssed and I started to feel more comfortable with automation; less "what is it doing now", I wanted to do more hand flying again, only to realise I've never flown this type any reasonable length of time, without automatics. Thus, confidence had been somewhat eroded, and it did take time to build up again. I started out by flying more of the departures by hand, usually to the end of the SID or around FL100 (and it takes a bit longer to reach it in a TP than in a jet I've heard!). Furthermore I would start to disconnect things for approach earlier and earlier. In my last work block, on a nice weather day, and with permission from the skipper of course, I hand flew a whole (positioning) sector, save a few minutes on cruise for the approach briefing, and it felt really good to see that I can still get my head in "Piper mode" and do such simple things as flying a descent rate based on DME.
It's an evil spiral; you don't want to if you don't have the confidence, and you have to do it to build the confidence.
I see some advocate professional medical counselling and sim retraining if you feel rusty or down about it; and I suppose it might be right for some. For me, what it took, was to take a little bit at a time, and wisely pick my opportunities; not to mention involving the skipper.
And that's about it
Firstly, it is my opinion that the captain has absolute power to decide on the level of automation. Again, it's a two (or three) man crew, and the crew is not stronger that it's weakest link. Of course the atmosphere should be such that it's possible to sensibly discuss the pros and cons at the right time, but I certainly wouldn't challenge the skipper on this one. Don't get me wrong; there are times when decisions must be challenged, but pick your fights carefully.
Secondly, on the level of automation, or rather on the confidence level of new FOs: I made the jump from flight instruction on singles and light twins with no AP/FD, to a commercial twin turboprop all-weather operation, with about 1850 hours total. At the time I was very comfortable with hand flying (it was all I knew) and very uncomfortable with automation. Thus; the type rating course was quite intensive on automation, and the company actively encourages it for all phases of flight. This would moreover continue into line training and subsequent release; it's quite another way to fly. It doesn't replace manual skills; it's a complement, but like everything else it takes time to become proficient in it's use. Since various levels of automation are mutually exclusive, you cannot practice one without losing out on practicing the other; and since I felt automation was my weakest link, that is naturally what I wanted to do.
As time progresssed and I started to feel more comfortable with automation; less "what is it doing now", I wanted to do more hand flying again, only to realise I've never flown this type any reasonable length of time, without automatics. Thus, confidence had been somewhat eroded, and it did take time to build up again. I started out by flying more of the departures by hand, usually to the end of the SID or around FL100 (and it takes a bit longer to reach it in a TP than in a jet I've heard!). Furthermore I would start to disconnect things for approach earlier and earlier. In my last work block, on a nice weather day, and with permission from the skipper of course, I hand flew a whole (positioning) sector, save a few minutes on cruise for the approach briefing, and it felt really good to see that I can still get my head in "Piper mode" and do such simple things as flying a descent rate based on DME.
It's an evil spiral; you don't want to if you don't have the confidence, and you have to do it to build the confidence.
I see some advocate professional medical counselling and sim retraining if you feel rusty or down about it; and I suppose it might be right for some. For me, what it took, was to take a little bit at a time, and wisely pick my opportunities; not to mention involving the skipper.
And that's about it
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There are a couple of issues here..As someone that pilot's corporate aircraft and also gives dual to biz owners in their jets.....
First off, many pilots have not given instruction as a job, but more as a sideline...and there is a huge difference in the comfort level of a pilot that has sat there thousands of hours watching the airspeed deteriorate, the ILS needle slide off to the right when down to minimums ect...some pilots are nervous to begin with, put them in the seat as an instructor and they just won't be ahead of the student...as they are barely ahead of the plane themselves. Some can't teach, communicate, and fly at the same time...some barely know what they are doing, so when it comes to them explaining something, it's a mess...
Now many pilots, have never really spent much time in a plane by themselves, as a single pilot captain...acting as an instructor effectively your flying the plane through the student, everything takes longer...your waiting and waiting for the student to react, to something you see, and if the student is acting alone, doing the flying, many CRM type peeps are all about helping the student, or really, just trying to do all the flying without touching the controls...another mess...another grabby, nervous pilot, barking orders to the student because he is 2 kts off his speed...and 1/4 dot off to the right....
An effective instructor is one comfortable enough to sit back and let the plane get way out to the edge of being able to save it...so the student can correct mistakes himself, and many pilots just can't do that...
Now if this is a revenue flight, passengers, or on a flight plan, altitudes need to be maintained, ect, the captain might feel that he isn't going to sit there and watch an FO bust an Alt while he is the captain, nor is he going to subject passengers or ATC to the wild gyrations of a newbie pilot, going all over the place in an environment where everyone is stacked up to get in, and his license is on the line. In those cases, the capt. has every right, to not turn this flight into a carnival ride because the FO student wants to try this or that...this is game time, not play time...
Having taught many pilots, and been taught by many pilots, finding a good instructor is about as easy as finding a drunk Pamela Anderson at the local bar, who just broke up with a boyfriend, walking over to talk to you...
In the case the OP described, it's easy to jump on the capt for needing something as unnecessary as auto throttle....maybe the capt is a nervous and past it, maybe the FO can't be trusted to deal with airspeed control...
One thing is for sure, and argument in the cockpit about whether SOPs allow the capt to tell him whether he has the authority to use auto throttle or not is a red flag for me....in some respects we need strong FOs to keep idiot capts from smashing up a plane, on the other, this is not a battle to have, arguing down the ILS on whether the capt is following company policy or not....
If the capt wants the FO to sit there, arms crossed, coupled ILS, auto thottle, just watching everything, so be it...not much training going on there...but it's the capt's call, I think while the FO has a point, save the arguments and battles for when the capt is on approach with that special glassy eyed look in his eye, the needles are going to the right, below GS intercept...yep, time to make your stand there....
First off, many pilots have not given instruction as a job, but more as a sideline...and there is a huge difference in the comfort level of a pilot that has sat there thousands of hours watching the airspeed deteriorate, the ILS needle slide off to the right when down to minimums ect...some pilots are nervous to begin with, put them in the seat as an instructor and they just won't be ahead of the student...as they are barely ahead of the plane themselves. Some can't teach, communicate, and fly at the same time...some barely know what they are doing, so when it comes to them explaining something, it's a mess...
Now many pilots, have never really spent much time in a plane by themselves, as a single pilot captain...acting as an instructor effectively your flying the plane through the student, everything takes longer...your waiting and waiting for the student to react, to something you see, and if the student is acting alone, doing the flying, many CRM type peeps are all about helping the student, or really, just trying to do all the flying without touching the controls...another mess...another grabby, nervous pilot, barking orders to the student because he is 2 kts off his speed...and 1/4 dot off to the right....
An effective instructor is one comfortable enough to sit back and let the plane get way out to the edge of being able to save it...so the student can correct mistakes himself, and many pilots just can't do that...
Now if this is a revenue flight, passengers, or on a flight plan, altitudes need to be maintained, ect, the captain might feel that he isn't going to sit there and watch an FO bust an Alt while he is the captain, nor is he going to subject passengers or ATC to the wild gyrations of a newbie pilot, going all over the place in an environment where everyone is stacked up to get in, and his license is on the line. In those cases, the capt. has every right, to not turn this flight into a carnival ride because the FO student wants to try this or that...this is game time, not play time...
Having taught many pilots, and been taught by many pilots, finding a good instructor is about as easy as finding a drunk Pamela Anderson at the local bar, who just broke up with a boyfriend, walking over to talk to you...
In the case the OP described, it's easy to jump on the capt for needing something as unnecessary as auto throttle....maybe the capt is a nervous and past it, maybe the FO can't be trusted to deal with airspeed control...
One thing is for sure, and argument in the cockpit about whether SOPs allow the capt to tell him whether he has the authority to use auto throttle or not is a red flag for me....in some respects we need strong FOs to keep idiot capts from smashing up a plane, on the other, this is not a battle to have, arguing down the ILS on whether the capt is following company policy or not....
If the capt wants the FO to sit there, arms crossed, coupled ILS, auto thottle, just watching everything, so be it...not much training going on there...but it's the capt's call, I think while the FO has a point, save the arguments and battles for when the capt is on approach with that special glassy eyed look in his eye, the needles are going to the right, below GS intercept...yep, time to make your stand there....
