Pre-take off checks
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Pre-take off checks
As a possible cause for the Spanair crash in MAD appears, I feel it is time to ask the opinions on these 'checks', particularly 'Flaps'.
I can recall, on the 737, when the flaps were in the final line-up checklist. Successsive inputs from managers have moved the selection of flaps to after start in most operators, and the Boeing checks check flaps while taxying out.
Is there not a case for making the timing of flap selection an 'appropriate' action, and this check a 'final' item again? What are the arguments against?
At least it would assist in the winter ops scenario, when flap selection may be delayed until just before line-up. It would also focus more 'importance' on the check that the setting is made and correct.
In my varied flying career I have either 'invented' last-minute checks or been taught them - or picked them up from 'legend', and the Trim/Flaps/Spoilers check is one such 'silent' check of mine, as is 3 greens at around 100'
. Is there not a strong case for making this pre-take off 'optional' process a routine? Certainly preferable to having call bells rung by pax and inappropriate calls from cabin crew.
I can recall, on the 737, when the flaps were in the final line-up checklist. Successsive inputs from managers have moved the selection of flaps to after start in most operators, and the Boeing checks check flaps while taxying out.
Is there not a case for making the timing of flap selection an 'appropriate' action, and this check a 'final' item again? What are the arguments against?
At least it would assist in the winter ops scenario, when flap selection may be delayed until just before line-up. It would also focus more 'importance' on the check that the setting is made and correct.
In my varied flying career I have either 'invented' last-minute checks or been taught them - or picked them up from 'legend', and the Trim/Flaps/Spoilers check is one such 'silent' check of mine, as is 3 greens at around 100'
. Is there not a strong case for making this pre-take off 'optional' process a routine? Certainly preferable to having call bells rung by pax and inappropriate calls from cabin crew.
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I believe the Spanair mishap is still an active investigation, and as such I won't speculate on the particulars.
With respect to the use of flaps and the checks thereof, we have several flap checks for flapson takeoff and landing, built into our checklists. In our case, it's a three-crewmember call, verifying the flap handle position, the positions of the flap indicators in both sets of indicators, the leading edge device flap lights, and a call by the flight engineer verifying his leading edge flap indication position lights as well.
If one elects to delay flap extention for some reason, and the checklist procedure calls for flaps...then one needs to hold the checklist until the flaps are extended...don't just hold on the flaps and continue with the checklist...especially if that's the only point in your particular checklist in which the flaps are noted or verified.
We extend flaps prior to beginning the control checks, verify that they've extended far enough to unlockthe outboard ailerons, perform a control check with at least one other crewmember verifying the control positions, then go back and verify the trailing and leading edge flap positions. Additionally, we have a takeoff warning annunciation if we start the takeoff without the flaps configured for takeoff.
With respect to the use of flaps and the checks thereof, we have several flap checks for flapson takeoff and landing, built into our checklists. In our case, it's a three-crewmember call, verifying the flap handle position, the positions of the flap indicators in both sets of indicators, the leading edge device flap lights, and a call by the flight engineer verifying his leading edge flap indication position lights as well.
If one elects to delay flap extention for some reason, and the checklist procedure calls for flaps...then one needs to hold the checklist until the flaps are extended...don't just hold on the flaps and continue with the checklist...especially if that's the only point in your particular checklist in which the flaps are noted or verified.
We extend flaps prior to beginning the control checks, verify that they've extended far enough to unlockthe outboard ailerons, perform a control check with at least one other crewmember verifying the control positions, then go back and verify the trailing and leading edge flap positions. Additionally, we have a takeoff warning annunciation if we start the takeoff without the flaps configured for takeoff.
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I believe the Spanair mishap is still an active investigation, and as such I won't speculate on the particulars.................................................
Additionally, we have a takeoff warning annunciation if we start the takeoff without the flaps configured for takeoff.
Additionally, we have a takeoff warning annunciation if we start the takeoff without the flaps configured for takeoff.
3-crew a/c - a very useful addition - but SUPPOSE the 'rush' sets in and no-one actually calls for those checks - "they were fine last time"? Would not a last-minute, ingrained "I'm going to enter a runway and try and drag this metal off the runway so I'm damn well going to make sure it will fly" mentality help just a bit?
especially if that's the only point in your particular checklist in which the flaps are noted or verified.
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- yes, we must observe the 'etiquette' here, but you obviously know my drift.
- but SUPPOSE the 'rush' sets in and no-one actually calls for those checks - "they were fine last time"?
There should never be a question about where they were last time. The question is where are they now, and that's why we have multiple points on the checklist asking that very question. The checks I mentioned aren't just points in passing. They're required items on the checklist, and it can't proceed until they've been covered and a verbal response received from each crewmember. When we do the flap checks, the captain looks at the flap handle, verifies it's in the 10 position, looks at the inboard flap indicator and verifies it indicates 10, looks at the outboard flap indicator and verifies it indicates 10, and looks at the leading edge flap annunciator and verifies it shows a green light. The checklist call is "Flaps." The captain announces "10, 10, Green light." The First Officer then does the same thing. The flight engineer responds after verifying with his panel "Eight Green Lights." The checklist may then proceed.
When we enter the runway, we also have a check "Flaps and Runway." The response from both pilots is "Verified." This requires a verification with the runway number as the runway is entered, the printed runway number, a crosscheck with the EHSI heading indication, and a flaps check. My preference is to point to or touch each item as well as providing the verbal response "Verified."
The notion of rushing a flap and guessing where the flaps might be is a poor concept, and a poor operational practice.
I've also always been in the habit of performing my own mental and verbal checklist prior to pushing up the power. "Fuel, flaps, trim, transponder, air."
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It has a lot to do with 'etiquette' which is why it is here and not (inappropriately) on the other thread, although Occam's Razor may well be applicable there.
- yes! You could add the 'other' items eg runway/trims/vital data etc but then it starts to become an unwieldy list at a time when concentration is imoprtant elsewhere. We are essentially both in agreement. You, I and 411A have the 'runway checks'. You and 411A have them 'formalised. A lot of companies (mine included) do not. I do them from 'habit' formed over years of operating flying metal bits.
I really do think this topic should be discussed by us (and seen by those who 'decide' our 'fly-by-mouth' system as it has been portrayed) and I would hope we can get some more input.
Let's start by finding out the prevalence of operators who do NOT have a 'final' check?
you're wanting a discussion about flaps, rather than a discussion about Spanair...a valid discussion.
I really do think this topic should be discussed by us (and seen by those who 'decide' our 'fly-by-mouth' system as it has been portrayed) and I would hope we can get some more input.
Let's start by finding out the prevalence of operators who do NOT have a 'final' check?
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FLAGON- I was taught the value of "silent and personal checks" in addition to the compulsory checklists, very early on in my career.For my last a/c (B744), my silent check before entering the runway was CRAFTS" -
Correct Runway,Autobrakes(RTO)Flaps,Thrust (expected EPR),Speeds.
I'm sure there are many other variations, but it is important to recognise that formal checklists are not the sole answer to the problem of ensuring that the aircraft is correctly configured for take-off/landing. There are many distractions that may interrupt the completion of a checklist and as GUPPY has stated "rushing kills".
Correct Runway,Autobrakes(RTO)Flaps,Thrust (expected EPR),Speeds.
I'm sure there are many other variations, but it is important to recognise that formal checklists are not the sole answer to the problem of ensuring that the aircraft is correctly configured for take-off/landing. There are many distractions that may interrupt the completion of a checklist and as GUPPY has stated "rushing kills".
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but it is important to recognise that formal checklists are not the sole answer to the problem of ensuring that the aircraft is correctly configured for take-off/landing
. I'm not suggesting they are, but asking whether this multitude of muttered 'personal' last minute checks would be better formalised. Indeed, there is no real need for 'normal' checklists at all, is there, in a perfect world, where everyone does what they should? As for "rushing kills", that is stating the blindingly obvious. So - no-one ever 'rushes'? Pull the other one. I believe we are staring that fallacy in the face, sadly.
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The 3 killers
Flagon - In ref. to your initial suggestion (nº 1 above)
xxx
In the 747 check lists "Before T/O" (which we initiate when we exit the ramp for taxiing to the active runway) we need to have the flaps selected to the T/O position, so that we are able to complete the "FLT CONTROLS CK", also part of that "Before T/O" - If flaps remain UP, our outboard ailerons are remaining faired, making it impossible to check flight controls. Was the same in the 707s and 727s I previously flew...
xxx
The "3 killers" trim-flaps-spoilers is not a recent "invention" - with PanAm I recall it as being an "old practice" by the time of my initial training in 1969. Would suspect that the PanAm "3 killers" originated with the first jets (707s and DC8s) - I have flown for many different operators, worldwide and was crewed with pilots/flight engineers having different backgrounds. Many seemed to "know" the "3 killers". Some operators add "compass/heading". In the 747, there are extra items that would trigger a configuration warning, such as BODY GEAR SWITCH - and EXT GREEN BAND SELECTOR SWITCH, which makes it 5 or 6 items...
xxx
You are NOT assured that the T/O warning horn will operate as designed if you are not configured for takeoff.
It possibly saved my neck twice...
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
In the 747 check lists "Before T/O" (which we initiate when we exit the ramp for taxiing to the active runway) we need to have the flaps selected to the T/O position, so that we are able to complete the "FLT CONTROLS CK", also part of that "Before T/O" - If flaps remain UP, our outboard ailerons are remaining faired, making it impossible to check flight controls. Was the same in the 707s and 727s I previously flew...
xxx
The "3 killers" trim-flaps-spoilers is not a recent "invention" - with PanAm I recall it as being an "old practice" by the time of my initial training in 1969. Would suspect that the PanAm "3 killers" originated with the first jets (707s and DC8s) - I have flown for many different operators, worldwide and was crewed with pilots/flight engineers having different backgrounds. Many seemed to "know" the "3 killers". Some operators add "compass/heading". In the 747, there are extra items that would trigger a configuration warning, such as BODY GEAR SWITCH - and EXT GREEN BAND SELECTOR SWITCH, which makes it 5 or 6 items...
xxx
You are NOT assured that the T/O warning horn will operate as designed if you are not configured for takeoff.
It possibly saved my neck twice...
xxx
Happy contrails
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In the 747 check lists "Before T/O"..............
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Delayed FLAPS selection
Hola Flagon -
xxx
Very simple - in a 747 (or any other airplane I have flown)...
If flaps have NOT been selected (snow on taxiways), it is impossible to make a before takeoff check-list.
That is a company policy, and was policy in 90% of companies I flew with.
On 747 Classic, the F/E reads that check-list.
He places the check list between thrust lever 2 and 3 to indicate CK-LIST needs to be completed.
Then, when ready, the PF calls for "Flaps 10 (or 20)"...
PF and PNF perform the flight controls check, after flaps are positioned.
Then PF calls for "BEFORE T/O CK-LIST"
The F/E reads the check-list - PF and/or PNF respond as appropriate (SOP)...
xxx
Note that the "FLAPS" challenge is answered by 10-10-GREEN LIGHT (or 20-20)...
Meaning - 10 (check flap lever) - 10 (check 2 flaps indicator dials) - GREEN LIGHT (leading edge).
Note finally that the 3 crewmembers respond - PF, PNF and F/E...
xxx
If at this time we want to check warning horn, PF just moves thrust levers forward.
All above is the standard Boeing AOM SOP, not an airline or personal procedure.
And despite all that, I still do TRIM-FLAPS-SPOILERS "3 killers" when cleared for T/O...
Just wanting to enjoy my retirement at the beach, not in a cemetery yet.
xxx
Happy contrails
P.S.
I have seen a better check list than Boeing (or any airplane manufacturer).
By far the BEST check list in the entire airline industry...
AA American Airlines had what they call a "mechanical check list".
Consists of a unit that was mounted on the side of their F/E panels.
Some 20 or 30 before takeoff items on the before takeoff check list.
For each one item (irrespective of the order) the F/E slides an indicator (meaning item completed).
By completing all items, check list was completed, and ready to be used in reverse.
In reverse, it becomes their approach and landing check list.
Could also be performed irrespective of a given order.
I used it on a 707 ex-AA on an ACMI contract. Was the best check list I ever saw.
xxx
Very simple - in a 747 (or any other airplane I have flown)...
If flaps have NOT been selected (snow on taxiways), it is impossible to make a before takeoff check-list.
That is a company policy, and was policy in 90% of companies I flew with.
On 747 Classic, the F/E reads that check-list.
He places the check list between thrust lever 2 and 3 to indicate CK-LIST needs to be completed.
Then, when ready, the PF calls for "Flaps 10 (or 20)"...
PF and PNF perform the flight controls check, after flaps are positioned.
Then PF calls for "BEFORE T/O CK-LIST"
The F/E reads the check-list - PF and/or PNF respond as appropriate (SOP)...
xxx
Note that the "FLAPS" challenge is answered by 10-10-GREEN LIGHT (or 20-20)...
Meaning - 10 (check flap lever) - 10 (check 2 flaps indicator dials) - GREEN LIGHT (leading edge).
Note finally that the 3 crewmembers respond - PF, PNF and F/E...
xxx
If at this time we want to check warning horn, PF just moves thrust levers forward.
All above is the standard Boeing AOM SOP, not an airline or personal procedure.
And despite all that, I still do TRIM-FLAPS-SPOILERS "3 killers" when cleared for T/O...
Just wanting to enjoy my retirement at the beach, not in a cemetery yet.
xxx
Happy contrails
P.S.
I have seen a better check list than Boeing (or any airplane manufacturer).
By far the BEST check list in the entire airline industry...
AA American Airlines had what they call a "mechanical check list".
Consists of a unit that was mounted on the side of their F/E panels.
Some 20 or 30 before takeoff items on the before takeoff check list.
For each one item (irrespective of the order) the F/E slides an indicator (meaning item completed).
By completing all items, check list was completed, and ready to be used in reverse.
In reverse, it becomes their approach and landing check list.
Could also be performed irrespective of a given order.
I used it on a 707 ex-AA on an ACMI contract. Was the best check list I ever saw.
BelArgUSA--- I think I've read that the mechanical checklist concept/idea originated in the USAF tanker/transport fleet?---
many interesting posts lately from you--- enjoy your retirement---I hope you don't forget and flare the cub at 50' though
Se cuida usted--despues de trabajar tan largo tiempo en las aerolineas--Usted es un enciclopedia de aviacion verdadero
PA
many interesting posts lately from you--- enjoy your retirement---I hope you don't forget and flare the cub at 50' though
Se cuida usted--despues de trabajar tan largo tiempo en las aerolineas--Usted es un enciclopedia de aviacion verdadero
PA
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Hola Chai Ja -
xxx
I realise the problem you describe.
Although with airlines and senior pilots, checklists/SOP are generally performed quite well.
Before the days of "all simulator" training, I had to teach in airplanes.
That included playing "touch and goes" with 707, 727 and DC8s...!
(What a waste of fuel that was) -
And... I fly a plane with a crew of three... quite better than just "TWO IDIOTS".
xxx
One thing I did (and still use nowadays, airplane or simulator) -
I have memorized some abbreviated checklist to save my neck.
As you may read here and other places in the forum, many recommend the "3 KILLERS" -
It works for any "straight jet airplane".
xxx
There are also abbreviated "training" checklists used by airlines.
I have memorized them - but I admit, I am constantly instructing.
They are designed to keep you alive.
Who cares about "galley power, seat belts signs or transponders" etc...
These will not kill you, you just might get a call by your chief pilot.
xxx
I remember teaching friends to fly Super Cub lighplanes with a fixed gear.
Everyone laughed at me when I said "GEAR DOWN - LANDING CHECK" when turning in final.
It is an example of things you should always say and do (not knowing your background).
xxx
Happy contrails (and laugh at me) -
xxx
I realise the problem you describe.
Although with airlines and senior pilots, checklists/SOP are generally performed quite well.
Before the days of "all simulator" training, I had to teach in airplanes.
That included playing "touch and goes" with 707, 727 and DC8s...!
(What a waste of fuel that was) -
And... I fly a plane with a crew of three... quite better than just "TWO IDIOTS".
xxx
One thing I did (and still use nowadays, airplane or simulator) -
I have memorized some abbreviated checklist to save my neck.
As you may read here and other places in the forum, many recommend the "3 KILLERS" -
It works for any "straight jet airplane".
xxx
There are also abbreviated "training" checklists used by airlines.
I have memorized them - but I admit, I am constantly instructing.
They are designed to keep you alive.
Who cares about "galley power, seat belts signs or transponders" etc...
These will not kill you, you just might get a call by your chief pilot.
xxx
I remember teaching friends to fly Super Cub lighplanes with a fixed gear.
Everyone laughed at me when I said "GEAR DOWN - LANDING CHECK" when turning in final.
It is an example of things you should always say and do (not knowing your background).
xxx
Happy contrails (and laugh at me) -
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Reducing Farts to 3 killers...
You know, Weido, that guy with gastric problems could reduce it to 3 killers.
Make him to be just a FAT guy with his gas and musical problems...
xxx
The SPEEDS -
In my plane, 747-200. we have 5 white bugs on the ASI.
Prior to the initial cockpit set-up, they are "pressed" together...
Then we set the speeds bugs to V1, VR, V2, V2+40, V2+80...
The inner bug (speed command) is dialed to V2+10.
So no need to still be concerned about SPEEDS. they are selected.
The check-list challenge "FLIGHT INSTRUMENTS" is complied by "SET/X-CKD".
After landing, by the way, we press the 5 bugs together again.
xxx
The RUNWAY (heading) -
We set the heading bug to the departure runway QFU.
This sets the bug on the compass. It will match the runway line-up...
That is also part of the item "FLIGHT INSTRUMENTS" as "SET/X-CKD".
xxx
So now, your guy who farts, is just having a FAT weight problem.
And you no longer need to go on oxygen... no perfumed deodorant needed.
KISS - Keep it simple, Stupid...!
xxx
Happy contrails
Make him to be just a FAT guy with his gas and musical problems...
xxx
The SPEEDS -
In my plane, 747-200. we have 5 white bugs on the ASI.
Prior to the initial cockpit set-up, they are "pressed" together...
Then we set the speeds bugs to V1, VR, V2, V2+40, V2+80...
The inner bug (speed command) is dialed to V2+10.
So no need to still be concerned about SPEEDS. they are selected.
The check-list challenge "FLIGHT INSTRUMENTS" is complied by "SET/X-CKD".
After landing, by the way, we press the 5 bugs together again.
xxx
The RUNWAY (heading) -
We set the heading bug to the departure runway QFU.
This sets the bug on the compass. It will match the runway line-up...
That is also part of the item "FLIGHT INSTRUMENTS" as "SET/X-CKD".
xxx
So now, your guy who farts, is just having a FAT weight problem.
And you no longer need to go on oxygen... no perfumed deodorant needed.
KISS - Keep it simple, Stupid...!
xxx
Happy contrails
