Passenger seriously ill.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: S51 30 W060 10.
Posts: 197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Passenger seriously ill.
Just departed from an airport below minimums for CAT 1 landings (about CAT II conditions) for a 40 minute flight toward an IMC destination, but ok for CAT I. Aircraft capable of conducting autolands, but crew not certified.
10 minutes after takeoff..passenger gets a heart attack, he´s critical. No other nearby alternate airports. Try to land back at origin airport or continue to destination?
Regards,
SW.
10 minutes after takeoff..passenger gets a heart attack, he´s critical. No other nearby alternate airports. Try to land back at origin airport or continue to destination?
Regards,
SW.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Over the Moon
Posts: 780
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Carry on to destination or divert to a closer airfield that is inside your limits. Obviously you would declare a mayday with a medical emergency go max chat etc in order to cut the journey time down. I'm afraid if your not certified to do autolands its rather irrelevant whether the aircraft is up for it or not. Autolands can go wrong and there is a reason for crews being specificaly trained and certified to do them. Its simply not worth risking everyone on board in order to perhaps save one.
If you have an uncontained fire or some other drama that immediately threatened the safety of flight then by all means do what you have to to get on the ground bending whatever rules you need to but not in this scenario.
If you have an uncontained fire or some other drama that immediately threatened the safety of flight then by all means do what you have to to get on the ground bending whatever rules you need to but not in this scenario.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without doubt, continue to destination. You are hazarding everybody else on the aeroplane attempting to conduct an autoland outside your operating parameters. I believe Mayday is the correct call as human life is in grave and imminent danger.
You should not ever hazard the safety of the aeroplane unless a greater danger threatens. Thus an 'on fire' overweight landing is a correct decision, but choosing to operate outside your skills is definitely forbidden.
You should not ever hazard the safety of the aeroplane unless a greater danger threatens. Thus an 'on fire' overweight landing is a correct decision, but choosing to operate outside your skills is definitely forbidden.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: australia
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Notso,
"Mayday" is to be used when the aircraft is is imminent or immediate danger, not a passenger. Unless a doctor is on board and can verify the passengers medical condition ("I'm a pilot, not a doctor") then, the PIC should proceed to the nearest suitable aerodrome, i.e. one that meets the physical characteristics for the intended operation.
Be very careful in making a laymans diagnosis of a condition for which one is not qualified.
If the illness puts the a/c into a situation that threatens the rest of the crew and pax then its a different matter.
Notwithstanding the above, "PAN" has little meaning or influence in some countries.
"Mayday" is to be used when the aircraft is is imminent or immediate danger, not a passenger. Unless a doctor is on board and can verify the passengers medical condition ("I'm a pilot, not a doctor") then, the PIC should proceed to the nearest suitable aerodrome, i.e. one that meets the physical characteristics for the intended operation.
Be very careful in making a laymans diagnosis of a condition for which one is not qualified.
If the illness puts the a/c into a situation that threatens the rest of the crew and pax then its a different matter.
Notwithstanding the above, "PAN" has little meaning or influence in some countries.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 725
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are your cabin crew not First Aid and CPR current? Unusual. I thought it was a requirement.
If you were foolish enough to turn back when you were 10 min out, you are also at least 15 minutes away from parking the aeroplane and opening the door to let the paramedic in.
Clean up aircraft, climb to planned cruise level, complete all normal checklists, proceed to destination. Advise ATC that you have a pax needing urgent medical assistance on arrival. Details to follow.
Keep seatbelt sign on. Not all pax will be aware that something unusual is taking place in the cabin, so best not have them bumbling their way to the lavatory.
Let your cabin crew do the job they are trained to do. Give them permission to make a PA asking any medically qualified persons on board to come forward and assist.
If you have more than 50 pax on board, there will be at least one doctor or one nurse on board (I had one heart surgeon, one emergency room doctor, and three nurses out of 65 pax respond to such a request when a young woman had a grand mal seizure aboard last year).
Your hypothetical heart attack victim will need immediate attention. If respiration and circulation are not restored within 3 minutes, that person is in a grave situation.
Dont sit his/her rescuers down for 15 minutes while you attempt an autoland at a below minimums aerodrome. Use your crew and passenger resources.
If you were foolish enough to turn back when you were 10 min out, you are also at least 15 minutes away from parking the aeroplane and opening the door to let the paramedic in.
Clean up aircraft, climb to planned cruise level, complete all normal checklists, proceed to destination. Advise ATC that you have a pax needing urgent medical assistance on arrival. Details to follow.
Keep seatbelt sign on. Not all pax will be aware that something unusual is taking place in the cabin, so best not have them bumbling their way to the lavatory.
Let your cabin crew do the job they are trained to do. Give them permission to make a PA asking any medically qualified persons on board to come forward and assist.
If you have more than 50 pax on board, there will be at least one doctor or one nurse on board (I had one heart surgeon, one emergency room doctor, and three nurses out of 65 pax respond to such a request when a young woman had a grand mal seizure aboard last year).
Your hypothetical heart attack victim will need immediate attention. If respiration and circulation are not restored within 3 minutes, that person is in a grave situation.
Dont sit his/her rescuers down for 15 minutes while you attempt an autoland at a below minimums aerodrome. Use your crew and passenger resources.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
....Safety is top priority...Limitations and minimas are always respected..your OWN (professional and otherwise), Aircraft limitations, Limitations of the 'field' of intended landing.
The only situation that drifts into mind, where Safety may not be top priority is if you are a fighter pilot in the WAR ZONE !!!
JG
The only situation that drifts into mind, where Safety may not be top priority is if you are a fighter pilot in the WAR ZONE !!!
JG
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 725
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find it interesting the number of airline pilots that rate themselves 'above average' in their CRM skills, but freely admit they have never opened a copy of their airline's Cabin Crew policy and procedures manual ("FCOM" for cabin crew).
How can you be a good Crew Resource Management practitioner, if you have scant idea what skills, knowledge and abilities are present in the other half of your airborne team?
Food for thought!
How can you be a good Crew Resource Management practitioner, if you have scant idea what skills, knowledge and abilities are present in the other half of your airborne team?
Food for thought!
Nah, the focus of safety always shifts IMHO. If you are on fire as someone already mentioned, then of course you do not go on for 40 minutes to your destination. Clouds slightly below your minima are now suddenly not your greatest safety hazard.
For one sick passenger you go on to destination. For two...you go on. Should however more pax start keeling one after the other over due to lets say, toxic fumes in the cabin, then the safety focus starts shifting. Judgement call..
For one sick passenger you go on to destination. For two...you go on. Should however more pax start keeling one after the other over due to lets say, toxic fumes in the cabin, then the safety focus starts shifting. Judgement call..
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Read the question. It is simple! People are throwing all sorts of complications in! Cabin Crew, fighter pilots? It is a simple question requiring a simple answer. People are changing the question then answering their own additions!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: I wouldn't know.
Posts: 4,498
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find it interesting the number of airline pilots that rate themselves 'above average' in their CRM skills, but freely admit they have never opened a copy of their airline's Cabin Crew policy and procedures manual ("FCOM" for cabin crew).
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In a light twin many moons ago, a passenger in my right seat experienced a heart attack at night, in a remote area. He collapsed, became unresponsive. Over the years since, I've had numerous passengers go critical in flight...some of whom started that way, when flying air ambulance.
Regardless of the situation, you're not on board to panic, you're not on board to be an EMT or doctor. You're a pilot You fly the airplane. Do you try to be a hero and make decisions that compromise the safety of flight because you' feel like your temperature just went up a little? A passenger has collapsed. You don't know why, you're not a doctor, you don't know that it's a heart attack. You don't know.
What you do know is that you are able to perform within certain parameters as a pilot. You know what the weather is, you know what the minimums are. You hopefully are aware of places to which you can divert.
The question appears to be crafted to see if one is willing to act illegally and unsafely in order to handle a perceived emergency. That is, does one's perception of an emergency justify acting outside the scope of a normal operation?
Any operation, abnormal or emergency, should be rehearsed and enacted such that it doesn't raise your blood pressure, doesn't quicken your pulse, doesn't break a sweat. You're there as a professional, after all. Do things routinely, make the situation as routine as possible. You didn't cause the passener to lose consciousness, you can't be expected to know why he's lost unconsciousness, but you can be expected to fly the airplane.
Mayday? One can't be serious.
"Boston, Scramby356. We have a report of an unresponsive passenger, requesting priority, direct to XXX. Request medical be notified."
Simple. No screaming, no panic, no need to formally declare the day an emergency or an impending disaster, no need to get excited. You have an unresponsive passenger. You can't go back. If your destination is the nearest choice, then it's the nearest choice. Period. If there's something closer and your weight and circumstance will allow you to use it, then do that.
Regardless of the situation, you're not on board to panic, you're not on board to be an EMT or doctor. You're a pilot You fly the airplane. Do you try to be a hero and make decisions that compromise the safety of flight because you' feel like your temperature just went up a little? A passenger has collapsed. You don't know why, you're not a doctor, you don't know that it's a heart attack. You don't know.
What you do know is that you are able to perform within certain parameters as a pilot. You know what the weather is, you know what the minimums are. You hopefully are aware of places to which you can divert.
The question appears to be crafted to see if one is willing to act illegally and unsafely in order to handle a perceived emergency. That is, does one's perception of an emergency justify acting outside the scope of a normal operation?
Any operation, abnormal or emergency, should be rehearsed and enacted such that it doesn't raise your blood pressure, doesn't quicken your pulse, doesn't break a sweat. You're there as a professional, after all. Do things routinely, make the situation as routine as possible. You didn't cause the passener to lose consciousness, you can't be expected to know why he's lost unconsciousness, but you can be expected to fly the airplane.
Mayday? One can't be serious.
"Boston, Scramby356. We have a report of an unresponsive passenger, requesting priority, direct to XXX. Request medical be notified."
Simple. No screaming, no panic, no need to formally declare the day an emergency or an impending disaster, no need to get excited. You have an unresponsive passenger. You can't go back. If your destination is the nearest choice, then it's the nearest choice. Period. If there's something closer and your weight and circumstance will allow you to use it, then do that.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mayday? One can't be serious.
"request priority" dosen't exist in europe (in terms of standard RT) where as there is no confusion over MAYDAY.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 1,464
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Said passenger needs medical help ASAP. Go to the nearest destination (in *time* terms) that meets all the relevent regs, make sure ATC are aware of the medical emergency and hope he's OK in the end.
If you are 10 minutes into a 40 minute flight, you are only 25% of the way through it. Will it really be faster to continue? If I was a passenger returning for a medical emergency (if that was the fastest way of providing qualified & equipped assistance) would be comforting, as it's what I would want for myself if I was ever so unlucky.
If you are 10 minutes into a 40 minute flight, you are only 25% of the way through it. Will it really be faster to continue? If I was a passenger returning for a medical emergency (if that was the fastest way of providing qualified & equipped assistance) would be comforting, as it's what I would want for myself if I was ever so unlucky.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: here, there, everywhere
Posts: 279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'd rather go back and land below mins... I'd rather have "no tea and biscuts" meeting with my boss, than having to live with thought that I might have saved the guy's life and didn't (even being perfectly within regs)... Of course the final decision would depend on the actual weather. I wouldn't try a VOR app to a CAT II minima, but with ILS and autoland... I think I would
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but with ILS and autoland... I think I would
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,914
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These dramatic statements to ATC of 'Unresponsive passenger, request priority approach!!' blah blah- I'm unimpressed. We had it drummed into us that UK ATC does NOT recognise even 'low fuel state' or 'low fuel emergency'. What they want to hear is either 'Pan-Pan......' or 'Mayday....' as per the correct fuel parameters of those conditions (for example the BA747 ex-LAX of recent history- correctly given). Now, if a fuel state hazarding the aeroplane (and occupants) is not recognised officially unless given the correct monicker, is a 'medical emergency....' call likely to be recognised? Stiffwing,thank you for the lesson on Maydays, but, I would rather stick my neck out and give this solution a 'Mayday...' and apologise later that although the aircraft was not in grave and imminent danger, one of the occupants (a human life) was, 'so please go easy on me Guv!'
The object of the exercise is evidently to probe how easily one would be persuaded to go outside one's SOPs and regulations. NOT a safe option, in this exercise, to return! The Cabin Crew were not a factor in the question!
The object of the exercise is evidently to probe how easily one would be persuaded to go outside one's SOPs and regulations. NOT a safe option, in this exercise, to return! The Cabin Crew were not a factor in the question!
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 3,218
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually, that was kind of the point. Crying "mayday, mayday" is an overblown, ridiculously overdramatized act which isn't necessary. Merely tell ATC what you intend to do. Period. No declaring the day an emergency, no dramatic announcements of mayday, no reqests for diversions; tell ATC what you intend to do and what you need, then do it. Simple.
Your job is not the passenger; your job is safe operation of the airplane, and you have all the passenger's interests to consider when you do that.
Your job is not the passenger; your job is safe operation of the airplane, and you have all the passenger's interests to consider when you do that.
So ATC tells you 'SNS3Guppy, enter the hold at XYZ, you're number three for approach'.
You say what? 'Request priority?'
I bet you that ATC will ask you then: 'SNS3Guppy, are you declaring an emergencey?'
What will your answer be?
On the other topic, just to make myself chrystal clear regarding my previous post: in my opinion the life of one passenger can never be the reason to bust your minima, risking the lives of everyone else on board. I honestly cannot believe that someone would return to land below minima for one sick passenger. You only disregard minima if you know that not doing so will be more dangerous on the whole. Minima are there for a very good reason. IMHO, once again.
You say what? 'Request priority?'
I bet you that ATC will ask you then: 'SNS3Guppy, are you declaring an emergencey?'
What will your answer be?
On the other topic, just to make myself chrystal clear regarding my previous post: in my opinion the life of one passenger can never be the reason to bust your minima, risking the lives of everyone else on board. I honestly cannot believe that someone would return to land below minima for one sick passenger. You only disregard minima if you know that not doing so will be more dangerous on the whole. Minima are there for a very good reason. IMHO, once again.