Long Haul Worries and why "simple guys" can't do the job....?
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Long Haul Worries and why "simple guys" can't do the job....?
yesterday i had the magnificent honor (horror) to fly with a real ACE, a widebody & long range experienced MAN in my tiny little only-75-ton toy.
only guys like him can fly worldwide routes on large aircraft
. all other are too inexperienced.
while i don't doubt there ARE special items in LR ops, can somebody please shed some light to what those are and what makes them so darn special?
is it R/T ? navigation along NATS? the ITTC? or just flying into exotic airports?
(or surviving the boredom of 8-12hrs straight&level flight?)
only guys like him can fly worldwide routes on large aircraft
. all other are too inexperienced.while i don't doubt there ARE special items in LR ops, can somebody please shed some light to what those are and what makes them so darn special?
is it R/T ? navigation along NATS? the ITTC? or just flying into exotic airports?
(or surviving the boredom of 8-12hrs straight&level flight?)
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Rest assured FCS, you are more than capable. I went short to longhaul, and now can't wait to go back to shorthaul again. Longhaul is boring, and as for the flying skills, it is a gradual errosion. Gone are the days of nice tight visual approachs etc...
You are better off where you are, and i dare say better all round.
Looking forward to getting back from the dark side
You are better off where you are, and i dare say better all round.
Looking forward to getting back from the dark side
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its not just an erosion of flying skills. one's mind erodes too. I think it has to do with all the blood pooling in your new "brain".
before one chooses a life of long haul vs short haul, one must weigh many factors. Of course money is a big factor and the big long haul stuff seems to make alot.
one must consider unknown effects of cosmic radiation exposure
But ask yourself, of all the planes that exist, which would be the most fun to fly?
Ask yourself, of all the maneuvers a pilot can perform, what are the most fun?
How many would say: GOLLY GOSH, I get to fly straight and level for 14 hours today! OH BOY.
or: I get to shoot a couple of approaches and try to grease on a couple of landings. Last time I flew this run, a cute actress came up and said: what a beautiful landing!
or: Last time I flew this run, a cute actress came up and said...GOSH WHAT A LONG ASS FLIGHT. DO you get to log the time you are asleep on that cute little bunk?
Ask any pilot what plane he would want to fly for fun: And nobody will say: Gee, I'd like to fly A 747 or A380 on autopilot ....they would say: let me fly an F16, or even a piper cub.
super jet lag, deep vein thrombosis, and the potential for being stuck in a country not your own.
I'm glad you long haul guys get the extra pay. I'll have the fun.
before one chooses a life of long haul vs short haul, one must weigh many factors. Of course money is a big factor and the big long haul stuff seems to make alot.
one must consider unknown effects of cosmic radiation exposure
But ask yourself, of all the planes that exist, which would be the most fun to fly?
Ask yourself, of all the maneuvers a pilot can perform, what are the most fun?
How many would say: GOLLY GOSH, I get to fly straight and level for 14 hours today! OH BOY.
or: I get to shoot a couple of approaches and try to grease on a couple of landings. Last time I flew this run, a cute actress came up and said: what a beautiful landing!
or: Last time I flew this run, a cute actress came up and said...GOSH WHAT A LONG ASS FLIGHT. DO you get to log the time you are asleep on that cute little bunk?
Ask any pilot what plane he would want to fly for fun: And nobody will say: Gee, I'd like to fly A 747 or A380 on autopilot ....they would say: let me fly an F16, or even a piper cub.
super jet lag, deep vein thrombosis, and the potential for being stuck in a country not your own.
I'm glad you long haul guys get the extra pay. I'll have the fun.
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having been lucky enough to get my hands on the f16 and the 747 i can promise you ill never ask to fly a piper again! but like you say i have friends who fly their jumbo wishing they were doing aeros.
odd post with little meat on the bones. was this an ex long haul dec giving it the big me on starting with a lo-co? short and long haul both require the same core skills but its the subtleties that differ.
my 2 pennies worth is that landing a jumbo/777/etc once a month after 14hrs airborne with little handling currency often shows peoples natural abilities a bit more.
the brutal differances are the pay and your handicap. never been paid more to do less. i often think that those who believe that flying short haul is exciting and challenging whilst long haul dull and boring need to get out more
they are both pretty boring, just beats working
odd post with little meat on the bones. was this an ex long haul dec giving it the big me on starting with a lo-co? short and long haul both require the same core skills but its the subtleties that differ.
my 2 pennies worth is that landing a jumbo/777/etc once a month after 14hrs airborne with little handling currency often shows peoples natural abilities a bit more.
the brutal differances are the pay and your handicap. never been paid more to do less. i often think that those who believe that flying short haul is exciting and challenging whilst long haul dull and boring need to get out more
they are both pretty boring, just beats working
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No special skills required, just dealing with nights out of bed, and feeling permanently crap!!
Also, your flying skills will be pretty much gone, even with the best will in the world.
On the plus side tho, less trips to work and a beer or two after every sector.
Also, your flying skills will be pretty much gone, even with the best will in the world.
On the plus side tho, less trips to work and a beer or two after every sector.
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Make a monkey go through the motions everyday, she/he can fly the space shuttle or any plane to perfection.
A long haul pilot ( especially those who conducts training ) probably gets to fly a leg once a month to maintain currency...to fly to a required level of proficiency require good innate skills and ability.
To maintain situation awareness, presence of mind and professional flight monitoring/management responsibility in the wee hours of the night during periods of low activity ( plus boredom, sleep deprivation, jet lag etc ) require special adaptation not easily cultivated in one or five years of paddling the flying machine....yawn
A long haul pilot ( especially those who conducts training ) probably gets to fly a leg once a month to maintain currency...to fly to a required level of proficiency require good innate skills and ability.
To maintain situation awareness, presence of mind and professional flight monitoring/management responsibility in the wee hours of the night during periods of low activity ( plus boredom, sleep deprivation, jet lag etc ) require special adaptation not easily cultivated in one or five years of paddling the flying machine....yawn
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Gave up short to fly long . . . . . love every flight , and Plus the TIME that you get for yourself to do what YOU want , not bloody 6 day on and 1 day off crap dancing all over the bloody country side ............!but hey that's just me . . . . . as for skills , you try and fly a big bird down to a kisser , whilst mainting pax comfort after flying for 10 hours straight at some god earthly timing .... that's a skill in itself
and yes size DOES matter !!!
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Been flying "little birds" since 1988. Swapped my B737 for a nice, shiny B777. Big bucks, less work... and I get to watch 2(!) movies while cruising towards my destination some 13 hours away...
Did my 2nd route-training trip 5 days ago and I can't wait to go back and fly REAL aircraft. "What a mistake-a to make-a". Alas, I'm stuck on this thing for the next 2.5 years!
Did my 2nd route-training trip 5 days ago and I can't wait to go back and fly REAL aircraft. "What a mistake-a to make-a". Alas, I'm stuck on this thing for the next 2.5 years!
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Being in the game for too long, let me think this one over; go back and fly REAL aicraft? This bravado of flying sporty stuff...sigh, boys will always be boys!
It all boils down to personal choice, quality of life or lifestyle choices, adaptability, money and opportunities and personal circumstances.
In my years of training on short hauls and long hauls, I have seen ACE pilots with superb handling skills but unable to maintain situation awareness and transoceanic flight management skills after more than 8 hours of duty. Hence they botched decision making wrt weather, fuel, pax/crew management and diversion decisions, etc.
Likewise longhaul pilots botched simple visual approaches and circling approaches. So the smart longhaulers should endeavour to keep their skills at conducting manual and visual approaches when they are most rested and alert. Avoid such approaches after long flights across the continents or oceans.
It all boils down to personal choice, quality of life or lifestyle choices, adaptability, money and opportunities and personal circumstances.
In my years of training on short hauls and long hauls, I have seen ACE pilots with superb handling skills but unable to maintain situation awareness and transoceanic flight management skills after more than 8 hours of duty. Hence they botched decision making wrt weather, fuel, pax/crew management and diversion decisions, etc.
Likewise longhaul pilots botched simple visual approaches and circling approaches. So the smart longhaulers should endeavour to keep their skills at conducting manual and visual approaches when they are most rested and alert. Avoid such approaches after long flights across the continents or oceans.
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Think you don't realise how bad short haul is now! I often check in for a 11 1/2 hour day at the same time as a long haul crew. They will be finishing before me and have 2 days+ off. I will have 12 hours off and come back in the next day! On short haul you're often too knackered to do much hand flying anyway, and it's normally rad vec ILS after sitting in the hold for 10mins so where's the skill in that? The only time it's quiet enough to do a visual is late at night and then noise restrictions mean a min 7mile final anyway!
Three 30min turnarounds with 2 aircraft changes anyone? Early on the 1st 2 sectors to find you have to wait around for the next aircraft that's an hour late and will push your 11 1/2 hour day to 12 1/2, but not quite enough to be able to refuse to do discretion? It's a real grind these days and the more turn-arounds you do the more opportunity for it to get screwed up! Know a few people who have just come off long haul to get there 1st command on short haul and have had a severe shock, several now regretting it. And I don't even fly for a low cost carrier (I used to) which are worse (900 hours in 1 year short haul was not a pleasant experience).
Guess the grass is always greener. Can't wait to chill out on long haul!
Three 30min turnarounds with 2 aircraft changes anyone? Early on the 1st 2 sectors to find you have to wait around for the next aircraft that's an hour late and will push your 11 1/2 hour day to 12 1/2, but not quite enough to be able to refuse to do discretion? It's a real grind these days and the more turn-arounds you do the more opportunity for it to get screwed up! Know a few people who have just come off long haul to get there 1st command on short haul and have had a severe shock, several now regretting it. And I don't even fly for a low cost carrier (I used to) which are worse (900 hours in 1 year short haul was not a pleasant experience).
Guess the grass is always greener. Can't wait to chill out on long haul!
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"Likewise longhaul pilots botched simple visual approaches and circling approaches. So the smart longhaulers should endeavour to keep their skills at conducting manual and visual approaches when they are most rested and alert. Avoid such approaches after long flights across the continents or oceans."
TRUE,
but when would you do that if your shortest flight is over 8 hours?
TRUE,
but when would you do that if your shortest flight is over 8 hours?
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FCS, the word "knobhead" springs to mind. Unfortunately, aviation has its fair share. What would I do? Treat him respectfully when he does the same to me and tell him off if he speaks to me like a child. If he has a problem, well that's OK - Ops. will have to get someone else for him to fly back with. He'll then have the problem.
PM
PM
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Did 21 years of short haul before joining Virgin. Been there nearly 11 years now. Having had so very many sectors prior to going long haul, I don't miss the relative lack of handling. There are times that it can seem hard work when the wx is pants coming back to the UK having crossed the pond, but I would still rather come back from Florida or the Caribbean overnight than flog out to the Canaries/Greek islands and back!
With the advent of the locos, the nature of the short haul beast has changed. I think short haul multi sector flying in Europe is really hard work now and I am happy to put up with having to deal with the jet lag!
When I first joined VS, I flew with a skipper who was a **** who expressed the opinion that one had to develop "special" skills to become a long haul commander. At that point I had about 11000 hours and had had various short haul commands. His flying was substandard, his decision making left a lot to be desired and his crm was lousy!
I would hate to have to go back to short haul now and would only do so if "needs must"
CP 32
With the advent of the locos, the nature of the short haul beast has changed. I think short haul multi sector flying in Europe is really hard work now and I am happy to put up with having to deal with the jet lag!
When I first joined VS, I flew with a skipper who was a **** who expressed the opinion that one had to develop "special" skills to become a long haul commander. At that point I had about 11000 hours and had had various short haul commands. His flying was substandard, his decision making left a lot to be desired and his crm was lousy!
I would hate to have to go back to short haul now and would only do so if "needs must"
CP 32
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Long haul vs. short haul...
Typical Pprune discussion... one half of the group insults the other half...
If it is not Airbus vs. Boeing (or 320 vs. 737) - it is having 4 or 3 motors for oceanic flights, vs. 2 motors and ETOPS - or glass cockpit vs. steam power gages... or having a flight engineer or not... then there is "oh these Yanks vs. the Brits, and these idiots from South America, and these Frogs with their funny accent on R/T...!" - STOP that, Gentlemen...
xxx
Can we be civilized with each other...? We share same skies for departure and for arrival... We all have our specialties... There are lawyers who practice contract law, others do criminal law, and you guys from the British Empire driving on the other side of the road...
xxx
I am a product of the previous century, and an aviation museum exhibit now, with my last few months before retiring, and happy to fly my old 747-200s with "many motors" overwater, and corny jokes of flight engineers who keep me awake from top of climb to top of descent. I barely log some 12 to 15 landings a year, so don't ask me if I use "triple autoland" for landings. Since I am relegated to flying my desk for most of the month, with a management title and exercise my brains in classrooms or simulators, and insults geeks and nerds of the new uniformed generation, let me say that I already dream of my final landing and my retirement party. It has been 38 years since I sat in a 727 cockpit as a flight engineer, then dreaming of a "window seat".
xxx
I flew short haul in my early days in the 727, often based in Germany (was the IGS with PanAm) or Miami and flying the Carribean. For us, most of the PanAm operations were "long haul", and we were superior "international" peelotes, speaking milleebar and cue enne hache, unlike the low life AA, DAL or UAL "dom(esteek)" crews (did we mean "dumb"...?), so most of my career was in the skies of Europe, Africa, Asia, South America or the Oceans...
xxx
I often jumpseated between my home then in LA, and my bases, these guys would not believe that we could be scheduled to fly to Sydney one week, and the next week, head for Bahrain. ("You PanAmigos know ALL THESE places...?). Well, I never landed in Colorado Springs or Colombus...
xxx
Honest, I had respect for these guys flying the "light twins" (737 or DC9s) and making 5 or 6 approaches each day, and be able to fly and do check lists and talk on radio with ATC and Operations/Dispatch at the same time. They even had the time to eat a "crew meal" at times. They got beef Stroganoff for the captain, and chicken lasagna for the F/O... At PanAm, our food was more of the lobsters and/or filet mignons.
xxx
So, now, PanAm is gone, as well as Braniff, Eastern and TWA... And I am in Argentina since 1993, enjoying life as if it was the 1970s or the 1980s... We do not fight for long-haul or short-haul... the pay is by seniority date of hire and position, not by size or weight of the machine we fly. Short haul crew to be home almost every night, in fear of their wives' potential infidelity. Long haul troops prefer to be gone for 5 or 6 days, and have nearly a week OFF when coming back, and live in the distant country.
xxx
With our two 747-200s left in the fleet, and a small group of 7 crews still current on them, it is a small family of old.timers. The 747-400 guys are all putting their name to be in the A-380 when they wll eventually come, although I understand that our A-340 boys will probably have priority, due to them being able to speak "Airboos" dialects. So there will be blood after I hang my hat.
xxx
So, Ladies and Gentlemen, continue to insult each other... I will continue to read Pprune after I retire, and laugh visiting the zoo. You will be the animals, I shall be the zookeeper, at the beach in Brazil, bottoms-up with a few beers, and get a bikini-inspector rating, not to have to worry about the exchange rates of US$, the Yuroh or the UK£...
xxx
Sorry about my bad spelling - just conforming to this site's SOPs...
Happy contrails
If it is not Airbus vs. Boeing (or 320 vs. 737) - it is having 4 or 3 motors for oceanic flights, vs. 2 motors and ETOPS - or glass cockpit vs. steam power gages... or having a flight engineer or not... then there is "oh these Yanks vs. the Brits, and these idiots from South America, and these Frogs with their funny accent on R/T...!" - STOP that, Gentlemen...
xxx
Can we be civilized with each other...? We share same skies for departure and for arrival... We all have our specialties... There are lawyers who practice contract law, others do criminal law, and you guys from the British Empire driving on the other side of the road...
xxx
I am a product of the previous century, and an aviation museum exhibit now, with my last few months before retiring, and happy to fly my old 747-200s with "many motors" overwater, and corny jokes of flight engineers who keep me awake from top of climb to top of descent. I barely log some 12 to 15 landings a year, so don't ask me if I use "triple autoland" for landings. Since I am relegated to flying my desk for most of the month, with a management title and exercise my brains in classrooms or simulators, and insults geeks and nerds of the new uniformed generation, let me say that I already dream of my final landing and my retirement party. It has been 38 years since I sat in a 727 cockpit as a flight engineer, then dreaming of a "window seat".
xxx
I flew short haul in my early days in the 727, often based in Germany (was the IGS with PanAm) or Miami and flying the Carribean. For us, most of the PanAm operations were "long haul", and we were superior "international" peelotes, speaking milleebar and cue enne hache, unlike the low life AA, DAL or UAL "dom(esteek)" crews (did we mean "dumb"...?), so most of my career was in the skies of Europe, Africa, Asia, South America or the Oceans...
xxx
I often jumpseated between my home then in LA, and my bases, these guys would not believe that we could be scheduled to fly to Sydney one week, and the next week, head for Bahrain. ("You PanAmigos know ALL THESE places...?). Well, I never landed in Colorado Springs or Colombus...
xxx
Honest, I had respect for these guys flying the "light twins" (737 or DC9s) and making 5 or 6 approaches each day, and be able to fly and do check lists and talk on radio with ATC and Operations/Dispatch at the same time. They even had the time to eat a "crew meal" at times. They got beef Stroganoff for the captain, and chicken lasagna for the F/O... At PanAm, our food was more of the lobsters and/or filet mignons.
xxx
So, now, PanAm is gone, as well as Braniff, Eastern and TWA... And I am in Argentina since 1993, enjoying life as if it was the 1970s or the 1980s... We do not fight for long-haul or short-haul... the pay is by seniority date of hire and position, not by size or weight of the machine we fly. Short haul crew to be home almost every night, in fear of their wives' potential infidelity. Long haul troops prefer to be gone for 5 or 6 days, and have nearly a week OFF when coming back, and live in the distant country.
xxx
With our two 747-200s left in the fleet, and a small group of 7 crews still current on them, it is a small family of old.timers. The 747-400 guys are all putting their name to be in the A-380 when they wll eventually come, although I understand that our A-340 boys will probably have priority, due to them being able to speak "Airboos" dialects. So there will be blood after I hang my hat.
xxx
So, Ladies and Gentlemen, continue to insult each other... I will continue to read Pprune after I retire, and laugh visiting the zoo. You will be the animals, I shall be the zookeeper, at the beach in Brazil, bottoms-up with a few beers, and get a bikini-inspector rating, not to have to worry about the exchange rates of US$, the Yuroh or the UK£...
xxx
Sorry about my bad spelling - just conforming to this site's SOPs...
Happy contrails
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Africa experience
Ohh yes - Africa...
xxx
Experience with Africa is...
Crossing whole continent, N to S or W to E...
Trying to call (someone...¿?¿?) on HF to get a clearance across their FIR/UIR...
Then, as they do not answer, checking the "Jane's all the world air forces"...
This to find out what they are equipped with... MiG-19... or An-2...
xxx
Not a problem. MiG-19s are grounded since 1972 (they never received spare engines).
An-2s take awhile for intercept of a 747 at FL370...
Anyway, their pilots busy with tribal wars, raiding local bars for Heineken...
xxx
To be sure, we broadcast "to all stations" on 126.9 or 121.5 where we are...
And if not too sure, we fly at FL370/+400 or 500 feet (nobody there)...
That is what we call "Africa experience"...
I assume that all of you, Nerds and Geeks know that.
xxx
Happy contrails
xxx
Experience with Africa is...
Crossing whole continent, N to S or W to E...
Trying to call (someone...¿?¿?) on HF to get a clearance across their FIR/UIR...
Then, as they do not answer, checking the "Jane's all the world air forces"...
This to find out what they are equipped with... MiG-19... or An-2...
xxx
Not a problem. MiG-19s are grounded since 1972 (they never received spare engines).
An-2s take awhile for intercept of a 747 at FL370...
Anyway, their pilots busy with tribal wars, raiding local bars for Heineken...
xxx
To be sure, we broadcast "to all stations" on 126.9 or 121.5 where we are...
And if not too sure, we fly at FL370/+400 or 500 feet (nobody there)...
That is what we call "Africa experience"...
I assume that all of you, Nerds and Geeks know that.
xxx
Happy contrails
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"I flew short haul in my early days in the 727, often based in Germany (was the IGS with PanAm)"
One of Jack O.Bennets boys then?
So you might have gotten clearances from my dad, who used to be an ATCO in EDDS from 1959-1983...I saw the last PanAm 727 takeoff in Stuttgart - the end of an era!
Enjoy your retirement!
One of Jack O.Bennets boys then?
So you might have gotten clearances from my dad, who used to be an ATCO in EDDS from 1959-1983...I saw the last PanAm 727 takeoff in Stuttgart - the end of an era!
Enjoy your retirement!
