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Captains that swear and shout.

Old 15th Aug 2007, 01:25
  #21 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: various places .....
Posts: 6,589
he can do it as long as it's safe

Not quite to the thread topic but consider that some of the set of reasons behind a particular SOP may not be at all obvious ? For instance, there could be a certification flight test outcome which dictated an aspect of procedure XYZ.

Excluding the out of left field emergency where the crew does the best it can with what it has on the day, potentially the pilot sticks his neck out for the enquiry chopping block by deviating from SOP in routine circumstances without doing sufficient homework to establish just why the SOP is as it is ...

At day's end, the aircraft is the company's toy and the crew has a responsibility to operate it iaw the company's preferences ... whether those preferences may, or may not, altogether make sense to the crew ...
john_tullamarine is offline  
Old 15th Aug 2007, 01:50
  #22 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Denver, Co. usa
Posts: 179
Be careful!

Can't get fired ? Ohh be careful. Much easier to replace a co-pilot than a Captain. I suggest you keep a diary and later present it to management when not short staffed.

This will not be easy I agree !!!!!
Remember if he presents himself to management as a nice guy who do you think they are going to believe?

You must be coy and very patient.

And most of all remember that you will NEVER be this type of Captain.

Good luck and best wishes. Been there.
polzin is offline  
Old 17th Aug 2007, 02:06
  #23 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: USA
Posts: 844

Sometimes we are reminded that there is still living proof dinosaurs still fly.
Earl is offline  
Old 30th Aug 2007, 14:58
  #24 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Talking of bullies, Do you think with airlines that dont tolerate it, that the bullies now go un-detected?
stevehudd is offline  
Old 30th Aug 2007, 18:16
  #25 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Origae-6
Posts: 137
FOLLOW ALL SOPs if this id----, I mean captain does not like it tough. You get paid to fly the airplane in a safe manner, and as we all know SOPs are part of the program.

I agree with the other post, you cannot get fired for doing your job the way the company wants it done. Even if this guy were to report you I think it would go no where since it sounds like the company knows he's trouble.

Can you put him on a no fly list?

Good luck and fly safe,

400drvr is offline  
Old 30th Aug 2007, 18:40
  #26 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Finland
Posts: 124
dynamite dean,

Itīs very good that you made this post and I think that many of us who have flown in a multi-crew concept can recognize this case. This is clearly a flight safety hazard.

Please, make sure you inform your company of this before any incident or acccident will happen as a result of this Captains behaviour. You should have a Safety Program (according to JAR-OPS for an AOC holder) in your company and a Safety Pilot. In this Safety Program you can make an safety report without having your name on it (if you feel this will endanger your future in the company). All deviations from SOP and "potential danger situations" should be reported.

Please step forward and report this to the Safety Pilot/Chief pilot/Quality Manager in the name of Flight Safety. Donīt accept it, bring it to the attention for the safety pilot before an incident or accident will happen in the interest of your own safety, passengers safety and your company!

Then, the reason for the Captain to behave like this can be many, wrong/bad attitude, training, company training, donīt like to fly in multi crew concept, donīt have an understanding of the intention of a company SOP etc......

Good Luck
Vertolot is offline  
Old 30th Aug 2007, 22:13
  #27 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 42
Posts: 3,112
This sounds all too familiar. I once had a Captain screaming at me when I made a small mistake on a radio call. I had already rectified it (I called we were climbing to FL 50 not Alt 5000') as I noticed it as it came out my mouth, but he was already screaming that about it.

ATC even asked if it was Ops normal as they could hear him in the background I told them to stand by, let go of the PTT and told him if he ever spoke to me like that again he'd be unconcious for the rest of the flight.

He was as nice as pie after that! Oh did I mention that it happened whilst I was line training!

Anyway, these idiots do exist and all you can do is to be as professional as possible. Mention to the CP/Fleet manager, talk to other F/O's as if there are a few of you saying the same thing, they are more likely to take notice. Difficult in a small organisation sometimes however.

Good luck with this pratt and when you get the left seat remember him and be nice!
Say again s l o w l y is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2007, 08:58
  #28 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 1997
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Say again.....i know the capt did wrong but you did worse by reacting, threatening him and during your line training.

I know this thread is about capts swearing etc which is wrong wrong, but there is the F/O brigade out there piling into the forum with the I take no nonsense stance and skippers watch out we'll make mince out of you.......not on my watch.
Bearcat is offline  
Old 31st Aug 2007, 09:14
  #29 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
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Mate you weren't there the language and aggression that was used was so far beyond acceptable it was untrue. It was a horrid situation to be put into.

Sometimes the only way to sort someone out is to have a go and in this case it worked as I guessed it would. It wasn't the sort of situation where a nice chat would have made any difference. We got on fine after that as he had respect for me as he realised I wouldn't accept bad behaviour. I doubt anything else would have worked.

I will not be bullied and nor should anyone else, sometimes you have to meet fire with fire in a situation like that. Not always and I wouldn't react like that in all situations and with someone else, but with this Psycho it did.
Say again s l o w l y is offline  
Old 15th Sep 2007, 11:41
  #30 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2002
Location: around the globe
Posts: 19
...let go of the PTT and told him if he ever spoke to me like that again he'd be unconcious for the rest of the flight...
No, you were absolutely right to do this. The only reason those kind of "colleagues" can continue to behave like that is because everybody swallows it and is afraid to contradict. Nobody has the right to treat anybody like even if he/she made a little mistake. I also experienced people like that and found out that when you talk back the same way they normally back out and apologise. There's no room for choleric people in the cocktpit.
FlyingBeetle is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2007, 18:36
  #31 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Africa
Posts: 1
One day, I asked a captain I really respected for his advice, as I was due to fly the next day with a misery. His reply?
'Everyone has a button you can push - unless of course, the wiring is disconnected'.
I put the question of the right button to the ether and next day, found a flash of inspiration as to which one to push. It wasn't easy or comfortable at the time, being what might have been considered aggressive, but the outcome??? I was ol' misery's best friend after that. So, I learnt that pushing the correct button can come in any form. Trust your gut feel at the time.

Or, here's something that worked for a creative, but paranoid colleague. About 99% of F/Os, including myself, were united in their hatred of the classic bully on our fleet - who picked fights on the flight deck for his own entertainment. Said paranoid colleague always carried his pocket-size tape recorder with him. When the inevitable picking started, the record button was surreptitiously pushed. After landing it was played back to him. The bully put in for early retirement the next week. I would never have tried it myself - but my colleague had the guts and personality to get away with it.

There are many ways to skin a cat and a creative solution is always better than the official route. Good luck.
pac-a-mac is offline  
Old 26th Sep 2007, 23:41
  #32 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 716
Scares me that 90% of replies here are essentially "go to the CP and refuse to play ball". What about simply talking to the individual? I'll bet most people are reasonable when they are told in a professional manner, that their behavior is not acceptable. Of course, a little tact in presenting this may help.

The fundamental lack of people skills should preclude a person from entering a multi crew cockpit. The person in question may not at all be aware of your feelings about him, and he will probably be thankful - at the end - for you bringing the matter to his attention. After all, the desire for approval is one of man's most fundamental needs.

(A book that everyone should read, that has given me a lot is the 1930-classic "How to win friends and influence people" by Dale Carnegie - google it!)
bfisk is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2007, 21:07
  #33 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK.. underworld
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******** with that !!!

DD don't you take that - he has no right to shout or become disrespectful towards you, I have never lost my temper in the cockpit ... not even if the F/O I was flying with had butter fingers and made mistakes with the FMS or the approach briefing. Being a captain not only puts the aircraft under your command but also puts you into a position where you must be able to lead the crew in a proper and professional manner.... shouting and swearing is not the proper way.... it shows insecurity and does not belong in aviation!!!
swampthing is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2007, 00:11
  #34 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 60
When I was F/O there were few Captain like to scream and shout. I just follow SOP and they cant do much. Now I'm a Captain, I still just follow SOP and we cant be wrong doing that. If your Captain is giving you hell, just step down out of base, tell him that he make you sick and unsafe. If needed, go to doctor and get medical chit saying you are unfit. That will teach that guy. What I observe is, it is a give and take for most crew. My F/O is my last line of defense against any mistake that I might make. We are human and we do make mistake. That is why we need 2 man crew.
MAS Guy is offline  
Old 4th Oct 2007, 09:33
  #35 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Wor Yerm
Age: 64
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1. Check BALPA membership.
2. Write letter complaining to Chief Pilot.
3. Next offence, get off flight, write letter to Chief Pilot and copy BALPA and your CAA Flight Ops. Inspector.
4. Stand back and watch fireworks.

People like this should be working for councils in charge of parking cars.

Piltdown Man is offline  
Old 5th Oct 2007, 13:51
  #36 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Posts: 627
Worth considering - perhaps there is a reason they are behaving like this. Maybe they have domestic/family/financial/alcohol problems, and are massively stressed out. Perhaps they need help. Difficult, but if there is a way to broach the subject it may be the impetus this person needs to address whatever is the underlying issue.....that is, if there is an underlying issue, and he is not just a b*****d!
Non-PC Plod is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2007, 12:23
  #37 (permalink)  
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Slightly concerned about the FOs on here who are suggesting you threaten your colleague or will threaten to knock them out - this is not the way to go and you could easily be sacked as most companies will have a clause about aggression to workmates: we are not in a playground.

If it is preflight, simply get up walk out and tell crewing you are not flying as it is unsafe.
Old 28th Oct 2007, 12:57
  #38 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Too far from the equator
Posts: 745
NON PC-PLOD just about hit the nail on the head .

I am approaching the final sunset in my long career and have flown with a few gits , but mostly great people who are happy to be paid for an enjoyable pastime which is 'better than working' in the great scheme of things.
Early on I flew with some famous war aces who just did not expect the co to do anything , but they were still pleasant enough guys and they could fly.
Then I started flying with a few real a**holes , it took me a while to work out what their problem was in general. They were not entirely happy with their own performance / understanding new technology etc and these were the ones who had hands flying around / mouthing off etc while P2 was trying to do his best .
Whenever I have come across a co who mutters about who his next rostered flight is with , I ask them to try and use this understanding . It often helps .
We had 2 complete tossers though who were beyond the pale , and after 3 copilots asked not to fly with them , the game was up.
The nicest guys/girls you fly with are normally the most secure in their own abilities and have no problem with delegating authority and who can deal with any 'prob' with the minimum of fuss.

Take care up there
kotakota is offline  
Old 28th Oct 2007, 14:54
  #39 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: USA
Posts: 122
and have flown with a few gits
- hmmm! - big club I fancy.

It is a fine line, though, isn't it? The other side of the coin is the constant 'Mr Jokey'/'Mr Real Nice Guy' who, according to them wot knows (shrinks), is also a well-known cover for inadequacies of performance. I think, on balance, I'd prefer the other sort if I had to choose, since I always reckoned they would be the ones who would 'come through' if the chips were down. Nice to have a 'down-the-middler' though, isn't it? Life's a bitch, ain't it?
Groucho is offline  

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