first CRM issue

[Miked]

I'll keep this as brief as possible.
I have 350 hours total time, 75 on type (ie my only commercial experience).
Consider my self easy going, flexible but proffesional, a good pilot but with a lot to learn.

Flew with a young captain today, who rushed everything, skipped checklists ( resulting in me picking him up for several mistakes, 1013 to QNH etc) flew at Vmo and expected me to do so too, generally a stressy guy made me feel crap (therefore reducing my performance) took the P when I made a positive arrival (due to him lecturing all the way down the approach).

I know what a CRM instructor would say to do....but I wonder how people on the line deal with it.

We went home 15 mins early, not really worth it. This has been my worst day of flying yet. I know that I am slower than more experienced pilots but I have never had a problem with other captains. I really wanted to pull him aside after the flights and tell him he needed to slow down a bit with new FOs ( and that he was a pillock) but ended up just wanting to get home.

Any advice appreciated, I know I will end up flying with him or someone similar soon.

Cheers,
Mike

[wee one]

Are you under training or checked.
No excuses for skipping checklists but worse if the former. No need to go at v/mmo unless a valid reason is given. ie to ATTEMPT an earlier arrival if pushing duty limits during discretion. Indeed any departure from sops should be justified and agreed.. As a tool to get home early in normal ops he shows his inexperience rather than the opposite. Too many variables to slow you up that negate the high speed philosphy.
However I wouldnt advise giving anyone the General Advice you talk about, rather tell himm that hes moving too fast for YOU at your current experience level. If he doesnt recognise the nerve that would take in a new guy to say, and respect it then he is a tw@t.
Real time crm is callled airmanship and not the wooly plastic theory nonesense on renewals. Airmanship also encompasses the willingness to speak up when necessary without exceeding your experince or knowledge, both aviation and general. People with poor crm dont get fixed in a yearly renewal , and peple with good crm dont learn it in the classroom. Its all about the individual.
Basically in the real world your 375hr opinion ( no disrespect intended, just a fact of life) may not go down well if you generaly advise more experinceed guys on how they should lead, fly or act. However you are the most qualified guy to assess what your own limits are and put them on the table.

[Miked]

I have been on line for about a month. I really appreciate your good advice and understand how my thoughts would not have gone down so well. Thanks for your time. I have kicked myself all day for not speaking up but then again that is a lesson learnt (one of many more to come).

Thanks again,
Mike

[Flying_Scotsman]

I guess it's difficult for a young captain to know how to excercise his captaincy/leadership. It may well have been that he was also operating at a high level of stress knowing that he was now in charge . You need similar but not identical approaches for Captaincy and Leadership. Perhaps he thought he could show that he was a competent captain by being 'punchy' rather than being professional. A young captain needs assistance as does a young co. If you fly together again let him know your feelings.

[low n' slow]

I've had a similar experience.
The second time I flew with the same captain, I made a remark on my low experience level and that I didn't feel comfortable with the speed at which things were being done, allready in the briefingroom. It's foolproof to initiate the discussion by referring to your low hours and inexperience. No offense can be taken because the faulty person according to this way of reasoning is you and not the captain...

Another technique that has worked well for me is to work ahead of the captain. Being able to give an answer directly on fuelfigures or weather issues reduces his/her workload and they calm down. Try to be VERY well prepared and be on the ball so to speak. I know it's hard and after a couple of leggs worth of flying it's not the easiest thing to do. But only do this once you start feeling confident in that you can handle your copilot duties without strain.

Hope things get better!
/LnS

[A37575]

You must always remember that regardless of your relatively low flying hours you wear the mantle of second in command. You are not just the boy in the right hand seat. If there is an incident or, heaven forbid, a bad accident, you as second in command may well be deemed in a court to bear some responsibility.

It is folly to simply hunch your shoulders and meekly accept unwarranted criticism from the arrogant fool in the left seat. By cowering and accepting that criticism from the captain is part and parcel of being a second in command, then you make a rod for your own back. Give in to a bully and you wear the consequences.

While constructive criticism should be welcomed, the carping tirade of sarcastic words from a senior crew member must not be accepted by you - unless you lack the character or bottle to call a halt. Of course the risk is always present that a serious altercation of words will only result in your being invited by the chief pilot for a cosy chat. Chances are that even if your retort to the captain is justified, seniority rules and you will be labelled a trouble maker. Never plan on winning against seniority.

It is a matter of moral courage and it helps if you are articulate and know your stuff. With some tyrants of the left seat, a strong and robust reply to carping can have surprisingly good results and the fool pulls his head in knowing the second in command cannot be trifled with. The danger is in escalation, especially while airborne. Again your commonsense should dicate biding your time until the aircraft is on the deck and the passengers have departed. Then let the bastard have it with both barrels - ensuring your facts are right. That night write down what happened as you need to record these things for future defence.

There is great responsibility and dignity that comes with your appointment as second in command. Unfortunately some captains may treat you as a small boy to be admonished and hectored. Every airline is plagued to some extent by these little Hitlers and management may close its ears to their excesses.

There is never an excuse for bullying or sheer bad manners on a flight deck. Within the bounds of good airmanship you need to speak up and be a man and not be a wimp. Sometimes the clearing of the air produces a happy outcome.

[AHRS]

crm

CRM requires you to speak up or the wrong stuff caprain may kill all of you if ypu are meek.It happenned to the GF A320 crash,KLM Tenerife disaster and countless others.Read NTSB reports and you will be more motivated to stand up and say the right things.Take a good CRM book with you on board...and be prepared to flash the page that says".....this should or should not take place".Non proficient CRM pilots are able to swallow such leads better(when referenced) if coming from low timers(and he was one too some time ago).YOU ARE SECOND IN COMMAND..NOT JUST A TRAINEE(YOU HAVE TO BE COMPETENTLY QUALIFIED TO FLY THE LINE EVEN AS A TRAINEE OR CHIMPANZEE).EVEN IF YOU ARE IGNORED...MAKE SURE THE CVR(IF EQUIPPED) KNOWS WHAT YOUR PROTEST WAS ABOUT..TO GIVE YOU THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT SHOULD YOU INCUR AN INCIDENT AND A SUBSEQUENT COURT HEARING.I HAVE FLOWN WITH SUCH DICTATORIAL SKIPPERS...STRAIGHTEN UP YOUR SPIME AND STAND UP TO THEM..CONFIDENTLY, THE BULLIES MIGHT EVEN SHOW YOU RESPECT..AS ONE OF THEM USED TO TELL ME..."I MAY NOT LIKE YOU...BUT I CANT DISCOUNT YOU FOR YOUR GOOD IDEAS".Finally, write down al these episodes as experience to learn from...THAT'S WHY YOU ARE SITTING ON THE RIGHT SEAT ...YOU ARE NOT JUST A REDUNDANT AUTOPILOT BUT A FUTURE CAPTAIN!

[Centaurus]

Many many years ago I had the treasured opportunity to have afternoon tea with Captain David Beatty who wrote books on his flying experiences during and after the war when he joined BOAC as a first officer. During our chat he said he had problems getting some of the captains he interviewed as research for his book to admit to making errors of judgement. I forget the name of the book but it was one of the first on CRM.

I suggested to this venerable gentleman that if he considered writing a follow-up book on cockpit personalities, it would be revealing to interview first officers rather than captains as they see more of the mistakes made in the left seat. To my embarrassment, Captain Beatty immediately terminated the discussion and I was politely ushered to the door of his lovely cottage in Sussex.
From this episode I got the distinct feeling that I had crossed some hidden boundary by daring to suggest that first officers are often witness to the real stuff-ups by their captains but it was considered bad form to talk to the lower status ranks about senior status pilot errors.

[Vc10Tail]

david beaty

Yes,I rather recal reading the same book or wasit the one that docused on Air Disasters?A venerable gent indeed.It must have been a priviledge to be unde his wings that adternoon.....I suspect it could just be a matter of being old and cranky that got his patience to run out.My elderly guardian was like that...the seniors of the old British Empire so to say!

[Dream Land]

FO's job

1. Keep the captain from killing himself . Some things that may initially intimidate a captain is pointing out the obvious, don't be one of those types, be very familiar with your company SOP's and callouts, sounds like he may have been a little frustrated at your pace, know in your mind what the next three things you need to do, for instance, if you know it's your leg, don't wait to adjust your seat or rudders after the plane is on the runway .

[merlinxx]

Capt David Beaty

The Naked Pilot is required reading. It's avail on most search sites, a good background to David Beaty can be found at

www.b737.org.uk/emergency_descent.html

It says a heck of a lot that is pertinent.

Good luck, keep the faith & don't let the b'stard get you down!

[merlinxx]

Centaur

My apologies for gifting your web site notes, bloody good read though. As a sprog Ops guy back in the early 60s I had loads of this stuff.

Did it breed respect, only those that helped to explain what, where & why. The old protocols where still in place, but were being slowly torn down.

The old application of "that's always how we did it" when I was a sprog, had to valued and respected, but times were, and still are changing.

If only you could get Kevin (bloody) Wilson to write a song about these folks, it would be a best seller amongst all those with the same snags.

Thank you, the sim incapacitation I've seen happen when riding a sim jump seat.

Thank you for all the really pertinent input, I hope many learn from you.

PS. I did meet David Beaty at a RAeS meeting in LON, a gentleman of the first order, but again of the old protocol.

[calypso]

There is a world of difference between allowing your colleague in the left seat to fly you into a mountain and letting him have both barrels because you didn´t get on. It is a fact of life that we are all different and somebody you may love to fly with is not liked by somebody else and viceversa. I would encourage you to absolutely speak up if safety is compromised I would also say, however, bid your time and learn to deal with the small personality frictions that happen. It is not easy being an good FO but you will find and get quite good at different strategies to deal with difficult captains (and despachers, controlers, cabin crew, your pregnant wife... actually I never did master that last one).

I would bring it up by pointing out your low experience and saying that you feel unconfortable and rushed, would he give you a little more time while you adapt to the aeroplane. The problem of giving him both barrels is that when the **** flyies it tends to splatter everybody.

Look at it as a challenge, in due course you will also find yourself flying with the opposite: a captain for who anything YOU do is too racy. It will be a different customer to please but heyho that is life as an FO.

[Bob Lenahan]

I really find it difficult to believe that a 350 hr pilot is in a position to critisize a capt.
However, I was even more surprised to find that an airline would hire a guy with 350hrs.

[Dream Land]

Yes, many companies are flying with pilots from cadet training with less than 300 hours total time , I for one must say that they do a great job.

[Right Way Up]

I really find it difficult to believe that a 350 hr pilot is in a position to critisize a capt

If he is part of a crew it is imperative he speaks up if the Captain is operating in such a way. Cutting corners whilst flying with such an inexperienced chap is foolish. This scenario would be no different if it was a 3,000 hr pilot who was new on type.
As an aside you need Captains like this to make the rest of us look alright!

[A37575]

I really find it difficult to believe that a 350 hr pilot is in a position to critisize a capt.

If the 350 hour pilot is second in command of a jet with 100 plus passengers he is certainly well advised to level criticism at a captain who knowingly breaks the rules. Read the reports in Pprune on the tragic Garuda 737 crash that made headlines where the first officer with 2000 hours meekly submitted to the captain's crazy flying.

[Bob Lenahan]

I would say that as "standards" are lowered the "acceptance" of lower standards becomes common place.
In the early to mid 60's a major U.S. airline tried a temp policy that if you had a commercial certificate with an instrument rating and two years of college they would guarantee you a flight pòsition as soon as you graduated from the university. I don't remember how many they hired under that policy, although I do know it was a good number, but within 5 years their were less than a handfull remaining because they could not maintain company standards.
I did a fair amount of flying with new-hire 1,000 F/O's, and it was a text-book example of "flying alone".

[calypso]

Hey where is 411A?

[dream747]

I'm not a pilot but I just thought of some questions when browsing through the topics here.

How would veteran captains with big egos (I'm sure there would be a few at least) react to junior FOs pointing out that they've made mistakes? If they refuse to correct or admit those mistakes and a certain incident happens as a result of that, I suppose the FO has to shoulder part of the blame too?