first CRM issue
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Rananim,
I am growing bored of this tit for tat
, who said what. etc. The fact of the matter and the gist of my point (which I will write here so you dont have to fish too deep for meaning through my other posts on this thread, as it would appear you keep mistaking my meaning
.) is that to suggest that a low hours FO cannot pick up a captain on an error, is very wrong in a modern cockpit environment. I could see such a comment being very valid in the 60's, in todays environment no chance.
I take your point about power gradients. However which is easier, and more beneficial. A) to add one of greater experience to the RHS (which, some might argue would create a clash) B) accept that flying a jetliner is a two man job
, everybody has to start somewhere, and at least CONSIDER that an FO (who is actually qualified on type regardless of experience.) may now and again have a point, if he is wrong, then so what...he is learning and you have at least given him something from the exercise.
Again I suggest you read David Beaty's book, the naked pilot. You would be suprised at the amount of times he cites accidents that have happened because the FO sat perfectly silent. Not because he had a lack of knowledge or experience, but because the cockpit environment convinced him his opinion didnt matter
.
Thanks, but happy where I am, and how I got here. with regards to military pilots being the best, And having an all so encompassing experience etc... May I suggest you steer well clear of that can of worms.
Happy landings
T
I am growing bored of this tit for tat
, who said what. etc. The fact of the matter and the gist of my point (which I will write here so you dont have to fish too deep for meaning through my other posts on this thread, as it would appear you keep mistaking my meaning.) is that to suggest that a low hours FO cannot pick up a captain on an error, is very wrong in a modern cockpit environment. I could see such a comment being very valid in the 60's, in todays environment no chance.I take your point about power gradients. However which is easier, and more beneficial. A) to add one of greater experience to the RHS (which, some might argue would create a clash) B) accept that flying a jetliner is a two man job
, everybody has to start somewhere, and at least CONSIDER that an FO (who is actually qualified on type regardless of experience.) may now and again have a point, if he is wrong, then so what...he is learning and you have at least given him something from the exercise.Again I suggest you read David Beaty's book, the naked pilot. You would be suprised at the amount of times he cites accidents that have happened because the FO sat perfectly silent. Not because he had a lack of knowledge or experience, but because the cockpit environment convinced him his opinion didnt matter
.
Military guys get an open invitation;the training is the best and the experience all-encompassing.If it doesnt work like that in the UK,then may I recommend you look abroad.To go from flight school to an airliner might be tempting but you will miss out big time and regret it.
Happy landings
T
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ummmm, WOW.
Not going to touch all of this. Some of the responses to my last post consist of: misquotes, putting words in my mouth, and also the ridiculous ones. None of these need responding to.
BTW, I never said experienced pilots don't make mistakes. I stand behind the post I made. If you wish to disagree, it's okay.
Not going to touch all of this. Some of the responses to my last post consist of: misquotes, putting words in my mouth, and also the ridiculous ones. None of these need responding to.
BTW, I never said experienced pilots don't make mistakes. I stand behind the post I made. If you wish to disagree, it's okay.
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Normally I would just bow out with a deep sigh but this is an important issue so I'll persevere.Let me make it simple so you wont misread.
-CADET AIRLINE PILOTS CAN PICK UP AN ALTIMETER ERROR,fLY AN ILS,DO THE PAPERWORK,HANDLE THE RADIO AND DO ALL OF THE MUNDANE LINE FLYING TASKS.My issue is nothing to do with that.
-However,when a situation develops ,they have neither the confidence,knowledge or airmanship to make any useful contribution,leaving the skipper alone.They can provide perfunctory assistance and that is all.
-Naked Pilot?Already read it but thanks for your suggestion.
-Military pilots?May or may not be suited to civilian flying.Depends on the individual.But their training is good,at least in the US.
Over and out.
-CADET AIRLINE PILOTS CAN PICK UP AN ALTIMETER ERROR,fLY AN ILS,DO THE PAPERWORK,HANDLE THE RADIO AND DO ALL OF THE MUNDANE LINE FLYING TASKS.My issue is nothing to do with that.
-However,when a situation develops ,they have neither the confidence,knowledge or airmanship to make any useful contribution,leaving the skipper alone.They can provide perfunctory assistance and that is all.
-Naked Pilot?Already read it but thanks for your suggestion.
-Military pilots?May or may not be suited to civilian flying.Depends on the individual.But their training is good,at least in the US.
Over and out.
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they have neither the confidence,knowledge or airmanship to make any useful contribution,leaving the skipper alone.They can provide perfunctory assistance and that is all
. Suggest you read the thread below entitled...'what makes a good captain'Happy landings. changing frequency.......NOW!
Tacho.
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Rananim and Bob
Thia has to be a wind up! Surely neither of you are real pilots.
With Skippers like you, a young pilot would never have any confidence or self esteem. You are both the classic example of what is bad in our proffession. I would love to know your real names, because if i was ever on an aircraft as a passenger and heard them on the intercom, i would stand up and ask to leave the flight. Do you not see that whilst your attitude was the norm in the 70's it is now completely outdated with current world-wide accepted doctrine towards flight safety
Thia has to be a wind up! Surely neither of you are real pilots.
they have neither the confidence,knowledge or airmanship to make any useful contribution,leaving the skipper alone.They can provide perfunctory assistance and that is all.
Moderator
(a) chaps, can we relax a bit, please ? .. the discussions are valid but there are no sheep stations at stake in the PPRuNe environment. Belligerent argument only serves to turn other folk away from the thread and that defeats the aim of the game ..
(b) actually, the medical analogies are quite reasonable. The medical world has been looking to adopt a similar sort of CRM approach to life as we see in the flying game ...
(b) actually, the medical analogies are quite reasonable. The medical world has been looking to adopt a similar sort of CRM approach to life as we see in the flying game ...
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Rananim:
-CADET AIRLINE PILOTS CAN PICK UP AN ALTIMETER ERROR,fLY AN ILS,DO THE PAPERWORK,HANDLE THE RADIO AND DO ALL OF THE MUNDANE LINE FLYING TASKS.My issue is nothing to do with that.
-However,when a situation develops ,they have neither the confidence,knowledge or airmanship to make any useful contribution,leaving the skipper alone.They can provide perfunctory assistance and that is all.
I see we've gone a bit past eachother. I think that in many cases we've discussed just this mundane day to day operation and how to make it safe. How to pick up on the small things that need to be corrected in a cockpit environment that is plagued by a steep power distance relation. We can never know how one will react to an engine failure, smoke in cabin, engine fire and so on. These are stressful situations and much as you draw all newbies over one comb, I think we can draw some of the more experienced guys over the same.
Certainly, someone who has been subjected to a similar event will be the better pilot, but this is one thing we can't provide in training. We can't expect that all pilots have experienced a dual enginefailure or a fire that can't be extiguished. Therefore, we can only do the next best thing. To make sure that all details deviating from the required track, be corrected. The aim of the game is to keep the operation on the safe side at all times and this is where the ability of the FO to speak up on even small things comes into play.
/LnS
-CADET AIRLINE PILOTS CAN PICK UP AN ALTIMETER ERROR,fLY AN ILS,DO THE PAPERWORK,HANDLE THE RADIO AND DO ALL OF THE MUNDANE LINE FLYING TASKS.My issue is nothing to do with that.
-However,when a situation develops ,they have neither the confidence,knowledge or airmanship to make any useful contribution,leaving the skipper alone.They can provide perfunctory assistance and that is all.
I see we've gone a bit past eachother. I think that in many cases we've discussed just this mundane day to day operation and how to make it safe. How to pick up on the small things that need to be corrected in a cockpit environment that is plagued by a steep power distance relation. We can never know how one will react to an engine failure, smoke in cabin, engine fire and so on. These are stressful situations and much as you draw all newbies over one comb, I think we can draw some of the more experienced guys over the same.
Certainly, someone who has been subjected to a similar event will be the better pilot, but this is one thing we can't provide in training. We can't expect that all pilots have experienced a dual enginefailure or a fire that can't be extiguished. Therefore, we can only do the next best thing. To make sure that all details deviating from the required track, be corrected. The aim of the game is to keep the operation on the safe side at all times and this is where the ability of the FO to speak up on even small things comes into play.
/LnS
Here here Low n Slow, Finally someone is talking a bit of sense.! Join Date: Aug 1999
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Training resources are a hell of a lot better than they used to be.
Real emergencies are a hell of a lot rarer than they used to be.
There is no longer the same relation between flight time and experience that there might have been 30 years ago.
The vast majority of accidents occur because of an error chain, and anyone can break it. Even the pax in the back at Kegworth identified which engine was malfunctioning.
I've flown with a lot of (originally 200 hour) cadets, and I'll tell you, if you select the correct people before you train them they get real sharp real quick. It was an honour.
Frankly the 'one man bands' here are simply identifying their own shortfalls as leaders: namely the inability to make use of the skills of their subordinates.
pb
Real emergencies are a hell of a lot rarer than they used to be.
There is no longer the same relation between flight time and experience that there might have been 30 years ago.
The vast majority of accidents occur because of an error chain, and anyone can break it. Even the pax in the back at Kegworth identified which engine was malfunctioning.
I've flown with a lot of (originally 200 hour) cadets, and I'll tell you, if you select the correct people before you train them they get real sharp real quick. It was an honour.
Frankly the 'one man bands' here are simply identifying their own shortfalls as leaders: namely the inability to make use of the skills of their subordinates.
pb
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Low n'Slow,
Yes,thats why we need two experienced pilots.
What Bob and myself were saying,if any of you had bothered to read our posts carefully,was that the First Officer is a crucial member of the team.He is the right arm of the skipper or should be.But he's gotta earn this right.You earn respect,its never automatic.
Yes,everyone must start somewhere,but this is what we're debating surely?You dont start in the right seat of a 757 with 300 hours under your belt.
The only people who benefit from that are the beancounters who get cheap malleable labor who wont complain about T&C and who will pay for their training.The Captain wont benefit and neither will the passengers.Two experienced pilots together rarely clash.In fact,the opposite is true.The calm on the flight deck is directly proportional to the amount of trust the left seat has in the right seat.Perfect CRM exists almost on a telepathic wavelength.You know what the other guy is thinking/feeling,nothing has to be really spelt out.And how do you know?Experience.
Finally,the post from Capt Pit Bull is the most distressing of all.The young guys know no better,they cant be blamed.But,here presumably is an experienced pilot who not only thinks training can replace experience and that accidents dont happen that much anymore(reallly?)but that its all our fault for not recognizing the skills of a 300 hour pilot and managing his skills???Just what skills are you referring to?A 300 hour pilot has no skills.None.A 300 hour pilot who recognizes that fact has one thing going for him;honesty.
If you select the right people,they get real sharp real quick?Sharp at what?Sharp at flow scans and reading checklists and flying an ILS?Yes,I agree.Important skills but they're just the bare backbone.The real skills that we need on the flight deck of a large passenger jet come only through experience.You probably counter that the Captain has these in abundance and so it doesnt matter.Well okay,but that brings us back to the steep gradient and the plethora of accidents that have happened as a result of just such a flightdeck.Kegworth.gerona.tenerife.Bahrain.Staines.On and on and on.You probably next counter that two experienced pilots can also screw up.Thats right.Nothing is watertight.We must however,play the percentages.What crew combination gives us the best chance of combatting a bad situation when a whole load of passengers lives are at stake???Let the new guys learn their skills flying cargo on a 9 seater with an autopilot that doesnt work.Let them shoot a dme-arc non precision with no FMS in IMC and no fancy avionics.Let them experience mod to severe icing at 14000' with only boots and the speed slowly coming back and see what they make of it.They'll soon learn self-reliance and adrenalin-control and when their time comes to move on and up,they'll thank the Good Lord that they didnt have to learn from their mistakes with two or three hundred passengers sitting behind them.And yes those experiences are relevant to commercial jet flying.Every one of them.Airmanship is not type-specific.Never has been,never will be.
We can never know how one will react to an engine failure, smoke in cabin, engine fire and so on.
What Bob and myself were saying,if any of you had bothered to read our posts carefully,was that the First Officer is a crucial member of the team.He is the right arm of the skipper or should be.But he's gotta earn this right.You earn respect,its never automatic.
to add one of greater experience to the RHS (which, some might argue would create a clash) B) accept that flying a jetliner is a two man job, everybody has to start somewhere, and at least CONSIDER that an FO (who is actually qualified on type regardless of experience.) may now and again have a point, if he is wrong, then so what...he is learning and you have at least given him something from the exercise.
The only people who benefit from that are the beancounters who get cheap malleable labor who wont complain about T&C and who will pay for their training.The Captain wont benefit and neither will the passengers.Two experienced pilots together rarely clash.In fact,the opposite is true.The calm on the flight deck is directly proportional to the amount of trust the left seat has in the right seat.Perfect CRM exists almost on a telepathic wavelength.You know what the other guy is thinking/feeling,nothing has to be really spelt out.And how do you know?Experience.
Finally,the post from Capt Pit Bull is the most distressing of all.The young guys know no better,they cant be blamed.But,here presumably is an experienced pilot who not only thinks training can replace experience and that accidents dont happen that much anymore(reallly?)but that its all our fault for not recognizing the skills of a 300 hour pilot and managing his skills???Just what skills are you referring to?A 300 hour pilot has no skills.None.A 300 hour pilot who recognizes that fact has one thing going for him;honesty.
If you select the right people,they get real sharp real quick?Sharp at what?Sharp at flow scans and reading checklists and flying an ILS?Yes,I agree.Important skills but they're just the bare backbone.The real skills that we need on the flight deck of a large passenger jet come only through experience.You probably counter that the Captain has these in abundance and so it doesnt matter.Well okay,but that brings us back to the steep gradient and the plethora of accidents that have happened as a result of just such a flightdeck.Kegworth.gerona.tenerife.Bahrain.Staines.On and on and on.You probably next counter that two experienced pilots can also screw up.Thats right.Nothing is watertight.We must however,play the percentages.What crew combination gives us the best chance of combatting a bad situation when a whole load of passengers lives are at stake???Let the new guys learn their skills flying cargo on a 9 seater with an autopilot that doesnt work.Let them shoot a dme-arc non precision with no FMS in IMC and no fancy avionics.Let them experience mod to severe icing at 14000' with only boots and the speed slowly coming back and see what they make of it.They'll soon learn self-reliance and adrenalin-control and when their time comes to move on and up,they'll thank the Good Lord that they didnt have to learn from their mistakes with two or three hundred passengers sitting behind them.And yes those experiences are relevant to commercial jet flying.Every one of them.Airmanship is not type-specific.Never has been,never will be.
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Whilst we're at it how about getting the FO's to dress bare foot in animal skins, live in caves, use outside toilets and write on slates with chalk 
As an ex FO my worst Capt was the Training Capt. Ex mil, been there, seen it, done it better than anybody else! He'd not even trust my guidance on taxyway routings and I had the most incidents of poor airmanship with him. He was no better with other Capts unless their resume was as experienced as his ( as if that woudl ever be possible!).CRM and common sense don't only come from aviation.
Different training Capt now. What did I learn most from the departed one???? How not to do it.
He made my life awkward for some time, but I always spoke out if I thought he was wrong in a professional and respectful manner. Hang in there new guys, many (me included) appreciate where the next generation have to come from.
As an ex FO my worst Capt was the Training Capt. Ex mil, been there, seen it, done it better than anybody else! He'd not even trust my guidance on taxyway routings and I had the most incidents of poor airmanship with him. He was no better with other Capts unless their resume was as experienced as his ( as if that woudl ever be possible!).CRM and common sense don't only come from aviation.
Different training Capt now. What did I learn most from the departed one???? How not to do it.
He made my life awkward for some time, but I always spoke out if I thought he was wrong in a professional and respectful manner. Hang in there new guys, many (me included) appreciate where the next generation have to come from.
Last edited by Sliding Doors; 30th Jun 2007 at 11:08.
Worst f/o I flew with, wa ex US military fast jet jock, ex widebody jet Captain, who I wrongly assumed would be up to the job and more. I learned something that day.
Best f/o was a cadet with a years experience on type. We had an extremely difficult day but his training and "common sense" provided me with as much support as I could have expected from any colleague on the flight deck. (be that Captain or F/O).
I think we have to accept that different regions of the world operate differently. It does not make one country more right than the other.
Best f/o was a cadet with a years experience on type. We had an extremely difficult day but his training and "common sense" provided me with as much support as I could have expected from any colleague on the flight deck. (be that Captain or F/O).
I think we have to accept that different regions of the world operate differently. It does not make one country more right than the other.
