Why is this not a safety issue?
Thread Starter
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,211
Likes: 0
From: UK
Why is this not a safety issue?
If you have a duty day starting at 2300, you can legally do, whatever the numbers of hours duty the table says...for arguments sake, lets say 10 hours.
Fine, but you got up at a normal body clock time of waking, we shall say 0800-0900, then you have to wait all day, all be it in your hotel, and then go to the the airport for 2300.
How can you be at your sharpest after having been awake all day?
Yes, you have had the legal rest, but in reality, you are close, if not passed your normal time for going to bed, and now you are about to start a duty period.
It is not like you could have just slept during the day as you were not tired at 1300 because you went to bed at a normal time the night before and woke up at a fairly normal time this morning...
Can someone explain why there is no real safe guard for this?
Fine, but you got up at a normal body clock time of waking, we shall say 0800-0900, then you have to wait all day, all be it in your hotel, and then go to the the airport for 2300.
How can you be at your sharpest after having been awake all day?
Yes, you have had the legal rest, but in reality, you are close, if not passed your normal time for going to bed, and now you are about to start a duty period.
It is not like you could have just slept during the day as you were not tired at 1300 because you went to bed at a normal time the night before and woke up at a fairly normal time this morning...
Can someone explain why there is no real safe guard for this?
I dont know? Ask that guy Bryon!
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 319
Likes: 96
From: Honolulu
Can't answer your question, but the US 121 supplemental regs do not have a duty time limit. Us long-haul freight drivers are constantlly battling fatigue. Our contract limits duty to 18 hours though as you point out starting out late in the day is often the worst schedule.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 673
Likes: 1
From: On the green bit near the blue wobbly stuff
Its a matter of common sense, with the onus on the flight crew member to achieve the best solution for his/her self, as everyone has different biorhythmns (spellcheck?). If it were me, I would go to bed late the night before, sleep in in the morning, and then nap in the afternoon to build up a sleep credit before starting the job.
It is a personal responsibility to make sure that you are fit to fly from a fatigue point of view, just as it is from a health point of view.
It is a personal responsibility to make sure that you are fit to fly from a fatigue point of view, just as it is from a health point of view.
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
From: Scotland
It is the individuals responsibility to get adequate pre flight rest, the company can only give you time, they cant make you sleep (except during tech refreshers).
Why not try getting up early, then sleep in the afternoon? At least you're working on a known duty, night sby's are the worst to plan for.
Why not try getting up early, then sleep in the afternoon? At least you're working on a known duty, night sby's are the worst to plan for.
Joined: Nov 1999
Posts: 2,308
Likes: 1
I think it is called planning and the application of common sense.
If you are scheduled to operate a night sector then you apply whatever criteria you personally use in order to ensure you are as well rested as you can be prior to the duty. Everybody has their own personal method of achieving this, and it is not a perfect science.
Staying up late the night before often helps. Activity to make you tired and achieve pre flight rest is another. As has already been said the final decision rests with you. If you are not fit to fly then don't. In fact that applies at any time of the day. I have had situations when for one reason or another I have been unable to sleep at night and considered myself unfit for a subsequent day duty and had to phone in. Obviously you are not going to endere yourself to your employer if this is a regular occurance and they have a right to expect you to properly plan your rest periods to make the adjustments.
If you knew you had a subsquent night duty, I cannot understand why you would go to bed at your "normal" time the night before, unless you employed another method for subsequent rest ? At the end of the day the safeguard is you !
If you are scheduled to operate a night sector then you apply whatever criteria you personally use in order to ensure you are as well rested as you can be prior to the duty. Everybody has their own personal method of achieving this, and it is not a perfect science.
Staying up late the night before often helps. Activity to make you tired and achieve pre flight rest is another. As has already been said the final decision rests with you. If you are not fit to fly then don't. In fact that applies at any time of the day. I have had situations when for one reason or another I have been unable to sleep at night and considered myself unfit for a subsequent day duty and had to phone in. Obviously you are not going to endere yourself to your employer if this is a regular occurance and they have a right to expect you to properly plan your rest periods to make the adjustments.
If you knew you had a subsquent night duty, I cannot understand why you would go to bed at your "normal" time the night before, unless you employed another method for subsequent rest ? At the end of the day the safeguard is you !
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,062
Likes: 0
From: UK Sometimes
I would agree with most of what has been said - plan your sleep cycles and get some sleep during the day but if you ain't fit at 2300 - sh1tcan the idea of flying - if you have a prang and it transpires you weren't up to it, guess whose licence is in jeopardy? The company might find itself in hot water if they forced you to fly, however.
I would heartily recommend the following book
'FATIGUE IN AVIATION: A PILOT'S GUIDE TO STAYING AWAKE AT THE STICK'
JA and JL Caldwell
Ashgate
ISBN: 0754633004
Although, it covers a lot of stuff we should already know, it was recently reviewed/recommended by the RAeS and is well worth a read beacuse it involves recent research and USAF experiences in Afghanistan/Iraq.
IMHO, knowing what we know about fatigue and crews, the FAA rules on FTLs are shot through - even the CAA/JAA rules are pushing it, especially for the 2200-0600 hrs schedules. Make up your own minds once you have read the book.
I would heartily recommend the following book
'FATIGUE IN AVIATION: A PILOT'S GUIDE TO STAYING AWAKE AT THE STICK'
JA and JL Caldwell
Ashgate
ISBN: 0754633004
Although, it covers a lot of stuff we should already know, it was recently reviewed/recommended by the RAeS and is well worth a read beacuse it involves recent research and USAF experiences in Afghanistan/Iraq.
IMHO, knowing what we know about fatigue and crews, the FAA rules on FTLs are shot through - even the CAA/JAA rules are pushing it, especially for the 2200-0600 hrs schedules. Make up your own minds once you have read the book.
