lock door policy

[cavortingcheetah]

I think that you will find that while most pilots are in the game for life, most flight attendants are in the game for, well, a little while.
Smart chap, Odysseus, rather more than a passing knowledge of Trojan Horses and the sting in that tail.

[tiggerific_69]

Xabi there is nothiing wrong with Crew going in and out of the flight deck because we can close the door behind us however this lad had the door wide open for everyone to have access to.
Regardless of him being a colleague,i want to feel safe with whoever i fly with,and that did not make me feel safe.
cavorting cheetah,i may not be cabin crew all my life,but i have just started studying for my PPL,so i will definitely be in the industry for life.

[261A]

I thought that the flight deck door had to be locked and if it is then how do cabin crew get in there for whatever reason and how do captain/FO get out of there?

Wouldn't you have a serious security problem if the cabin crew have a key or whatever to unlock the door and some al qaeda has got a gun to your head?!

Just curious.

[Colonal Mustard]

Dont the DFT make some rules that are just unworkable!!!

have a quiet word in the cap`ns ear asking for him to clarify "His" position regarding allowing people to enter the cockpit find out what his reasoning is
(not in a stuffy kinda way)


THEN

explain that you felt uncomfortable with what happened and (heres the important part) EXPLAIN to him that you would rather this didnt occur in the future whilst your his oppo...ask him to come to some sort of middle ground and hey presto TEAMWORK in action

How many times have we all said that if only "he" had spoke to me first before going to the boss


he may say he point blankly refuses to agree with you but i bet no kid will visit the pit again

[cavortingcheetah]

Well, how rude must one become in order to be awarded the mince pie of the year?
A casual read through some of the prose which has preceeded this little message would confirm my darkest thought, which is that cabin attendants these days flunked out as secretaries on account of their dreadful and totally nonexistent concepts of what was garammer all about then!



Probably can't evacuate much either.?
The only people who should ever be in the cockpit are the men flying the machine and, from time to time, the trolley dolly with a coffee or two!

[tiggerific_69]

CavortingCheetah
for your information,us "trolley dollys" are there for a reason and it is NOT to serve flight deck coffee,and with attitude like yours id rather they went thirsty.i do my job to contribute towards a safe flight along with the flight crew,not to serve tea and coffee.if it was really to do that,id work in a cafe.
And i was perfectly capable of conducting an evacuation in August so please keep your nasty and discriminatory thoughts to yourself if you have nothing constructive to say about the original post i made.

Colonal Mustard that seems like good advice,i will have a word next time i see him,you know how it is you dont see people for months in this job!

261A,the door is locked from the inside by the flight deck,either on the door,or a switch on all the controls somewhere.

[cavortingcheetah]

A reaction quite as predictable as the trash stowed in the emergency exits the last time I flew with those who are not quite so holy.
I think that here we have a good illustration as to why cabin staff should not involve themselves in matters rather above their station.

[amy_lou34]

I cannot believe what I have just read. YOU want us to respect the Flight Deck (which by the way most of us do) but you don't have an ounce of respect for cabin crew. Your attitude is disgusting. And no we're not all "flunked out secretaries" many of us have a higher education up to A-level/degree level. I'm sure, cavortingcheetah, that you are just a minority..all of the pilots I have flown with have respect for their colleagues whether it be the FO or the cabin crew. After all, if they were incapacitated in any way, it is us who have to deal with the emergency. So if I ever get the pleasure of flying with you and you become incapacitated, I'll leave you to it while I carry on with the drinks service. The question that Tiggerific initially asked has been overlooked and has turned into a slanging match. We all have a job to do, and we all should respect eachother....whether we be cabin crew, flight deck or the cleaners!

Merry Christmas!

And by the way....no one stows bags at my emergency exits

[Captain Stable]

cheetah won't be posting further on this thread.

I hope he and all other contributors here have a Happy Christmas.

[tiggerific_69]

thank you capt stable,as pointed out,my original question has been overlooked

[Bealzebub]

No it hasn't tiggerific. Did you read the responses some of us went to the trouble of writing ?

[Dream Land]

Tiger,

You may want to look over the posts again, yes you could appoint yourself to be the SOP undercover police for your airline, or you could make life easy for yourself and do something like making known your observation and concerns to your immediate supervisor and let him/her take the appropriate steps. I myself consider filing a report as an absolute last resort, bad CRM.

[ukatco_535]

Edited due to my inability to read!!

Ask your Senior Steward their opinion, as it seems (having re-rea your question properly) that you had a discussion before asking the pilot anyways.- thats what they are there for.

However I would not go down an official channel of reporting in the first instance.

As for other replies to your post - YES the DFT ruling may be a little harsh now however, the law is black and white in this instance.... there is no way a Captain could say that he took this course of action in the interests of flight safety (the ONLY legal reason he can use to break a laid down law, and indeed company SOP).

As for saying 'it was only a young lad' - how many times did the IRA (terrorists) shoot at soldiers then hand their gun to a young lad so they could make their escape, knowing the soldier would not shoot the kid, and would not shoot the terrorist as he no longer had a gun in his hand and therefore could not be engaged under the rules of engagement.

(The soldier would also chase after the gun, as to leave it for future use would be a folly)

Terrorists have and continue to stoop to any level to do what they have to, and that could include getting a young, idealistic friend to ask if they could see inside the cockpit, whilst the aircraft in is in flight.

It may seem far-fetched but how many people would have believed the scenario of several people taking flying lessons, then simultaneously hijacking aircraft and flying them into buildings??

[amy_lou34]

I think if you read Tiggerific's post again, you'll notice that the Captain was asked if the boy could "pop his head round after landing and all of the passengers have been disembarked".

[Harves]

First of all hello everybody and I hope that you have all had a great Christmas so far....and on those lines...I hope that you will forgive me any poor spelling, grammar and missreading....but I have to say that I have found this thread slightly remarkable on many fronts.

If I could first say that I can see things from both sides, having been cabin crew whilst trying to get my break post F ATPL. I am also a little older than the average Junior Cabin Crew and F/O that I am now.... meaning that it can be a little easier to speak your mind with a little less experience.

But my main point is that I am a little concerned on a couple (or more) points with the replies received from the questioner to what I see as a reasonable question. From my slightly hung over scan of the thread, I only picked up on two completely fair responces(and please forgive me those of you that I hope were there aswell)...and they were from ukatco and colonelmustard.

I hate the locked door policy.....without gushing too much .. I was a kid once and from that first flight deck visit I never looked back...I am gutted we don't have those times anymore and if it were purely a guideline or recomendation I would be the first to encourage flexibility...but it is sadly not the case. It may seem slightly strange that we open the door to get coffee or have our 20 minute checks, or even go to the toilet, but we can't open up to let a youungster in. The fact of the matter is that if aircraft design and money allowed..this probably wouldn't happen either.

Now granted this is probably all an over reaction...but would you want to be the one to make that call....I know that I wouldn't.

Should the Captain have allowed the flight deck visit whilst aloft?....The rules say no...should it make a difference he was young (15 apparently)...again the rules say no.......if I were a Captain and had to decide on who were a terrorist threat and who was not....I would say no...In a way the rules help us, in particular the captain, to avoid those awkward decisions.

As an FO I am fully aware of the CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder) so if I am ever concerned, will mention it in a CRM friendly way.... to begin with atleast...once your head is in the door...you have that "luxury" too as cabin crew.

We then have the them and us situation which I thought was diminishing with Flight Deck and Cabin Crew.......I have been astonished by the comments that have been made with regards to our colleagues that have required people resorting to saying ... would you rather us carry on serving drinks rather than mention an engine fire...atleast something along those lines...I hope that the comments were meant with a pinch of salt from the pilot concerned.

Now...going on to my time as cabin crew....as any junior will know...the senior can often be a pain in the neck...but usually comes with a fountain of knowledge and experience...not to mention the get out clause lol.....the following I will admit is SOP's rather than solid regs as I know it, but in my airline, the SCCM had a lot of clout withe the Captain and could easily ground a flight...as could a united team of course. I am not suggesting that this was required in this case...far from it..but just making the piont to certain previous comments made.

Okay...I am more than aware that I have gone on for far too long and haven't answered the question......so here goes...

Had I been you as a junior, I would have gone through the direct chain of command knowing this was not the norm when you asked the correct question of the Captain and got a non normal reply...ie SCCM. In my experience..a good Senior will have the skills and often personal relationships to just nudge the flight deck crew in the right direction.....usually end of story....if not..yes the FO is the next recourse but that is so unrealistic in the real world as not worth discussing...unless you can grab him or her on the way to the toilet.

And you will be pleased to know that is it from me....except to say should you report it?......I would say fine time for a group discussion of the days flight . Just remember, the Captain of an aircraft is only in that seat for a reason. He or She has many preasures that don't just involve the safe operation of the aircraft. We are all responsible for our company in ways of finance and PR. The flight deck is rarely seen but does have equal or similar preasures...but at the end of the day...safety is the number 1 for us all and if you feel that really can't be resolved having followed all avenues...then you have no choice as I see it but to voice your views on paper....much as I hate to say it.

Such a shame it has come to this...I do wish it were different, but these are the times we live in.

Happy New Year to you all anyway and here is to that magnificent team in the air!!!

[Ropey Pilot]

I could add my entire 2p's worth to this but a lot of it has been mentioned before if one picks through hard enough but I would like to say:

1) A lot of people here seem to think that the Capt must have some sort of special powers for detecting terrorists (beard, turban etc) and as long as one can prove he/she is under 16 years of age (the international minimum legal age for martyrdom) then they are alright - as this lad was 15 (and quite possibly over 6foot tall like my 15 year old cousin) he should be ok

2) All those who state they are going to let kids visit the flight deck every flight will presumably lead to the ultimate situation of little kiddywinks standing open eyed by the open door on every flight. They are not the problem - now Mr/Ms terrorist knows that on every flight as soon as the 6 yr old darling is standing in the doorway the gig is on! Imagine the kudos if they could pull it off again with all the security measures 'in force' (although being ignored by Capts who know better) - a lot of people will never feel safe enough to fly again (rightly or wrongly)

3) and most importantly in my view is the problem that the Capt stated he was going to act illegally by not sticking to this particular SOP. When the crew told him they were not happy with this he went and did it anyway! That is my main concern here. I can see very little gain (except alienating the crew) from this action. I can see occasions to ignore SOPs - there are probably occasions where breaking the law is acceptable; but in this case I can see no gain from doing so.At the very least I would have expected a discussion with his point of view to try and convince me why my complicity in an illegal act should be justified (cue lots of get back in your box and be quiet - when you are a Capt etc. )

4) and finally.... No I wouldn't report him. If you feel strongly I would think about talking to him, your fleet/base Capt, or possibly chief pilot (all depending on company size etc) but informally and verbally not in writing. One of these people with more experience will be able to advise you as opposed to this large collection of barrack room lawyers (including me). I know one post expressed incredulity that you would even consider reporting a colleague and friend - but from what I understand that colleague effectively ordered you to break the law against your wishes - some friend! But only you were there and know the way in which this was done so only you can determine what level of action is appropriate.

ps for those who only give validity to opinions once you state who you are I am a relatively new airline FO but with some years of military flying (in the left seat)and a good few more in command of soldiers on the ground. From that I learned that the Queen may put the rank on your shoulder, and with it the authority and responsibility; but it is far easier to wield that with respect of your colleagues/subordinates and that respect must be earned by your actions it is not given with the rank; I don't see why the airline industry is any different.

[Captain Stable]

I am worried that cheetah's apology might have got lost, so I take the onus on myself of reprinting it:-

Dear Captain Stable and others,

In a rather more humble frame of mind I would be obliged if you would post this apology on the necessary thread.
My comments were perhaps uncalled for and certainly might have caused offence. At the time,I must admit that such was possibly my intention. I retract my horrible innuendoes and would hope that this apology will be accepted by all concerned.
Very sorry cavorting cheetah.

I am glad that cheetah saw fit to send this when more sober counsel prevailed, and also he showed the maturity to apologise honourably. Would other posters please take note - good CRM and professionalism (both qualities which we are supposed to demonstrate in our working lives) are approved of here. Behaviour which falls short of this will be frowned on and I and other Mods will react accordingly.

[tiggerific_69]

Re: lock door policy

Hi MzGuilty,i think it was because he had snapped at me earlier in the day over something which has affected me personally,and i think that had this not happened,i would have said something to him
too much time has probably gone by to report him now,but if it happens again with the same captain i wont think twice about speaking to him
thanks

[derekl]

Re: lock door policy

I am not an airline employee, so I have oberserver status here only.

It seems to me that there are three issues here:

1) what the rules are for flight deck access

2) what constitutes good security practice

3) aircrew management and command chain.

I am not qualified to comment on (3), other than in the most general sense that it appears to me that as the Captain is in command, his word presumably should be the final call in any situation (which does not mean that he's correct, of course).

As for (1), many rules are applied after disasters so that the authorities can be seen to be "doing something about it". There are countless examples of this, including the private target pistol ban after Dunblane -- crime with handguns has soared, the ban made no difference other than, contrarily, to increase gun crime. Check the Home Office statistics.

Now (2) is interesting, partly because of (3). The simple fact is that whatever is done to keep terrorists off the flight deck doesn't really matter at all in terms of flight security. If the terrorists want to attack aircraft, they will simply go about it another way. If the terrorists want to use aircraft as flying bombs again, they can simply do the same as they did last time. The 9/11 flight deck doors were shut, after all. The flight crew opened the doors, as I understand it, after the terrorists started killing the CC. The difference is that now the flight deck crew may take a personal decision to allow that to happen, knowing that the alternative may cause even greater carnage.

I suspect that visitors to the flight deck, be they boys of 15 or (in my sad case, 62) have little or no effect on actual flight safety -- other than people may believe that somehow it's "safer". The fact is, it probably isn't.

Good security comes from personal awareness -- hence the Captain's judgement, in the case under discussion, seems to have been good (even if it may have been against the rules, and, again, I simply don't know ebough to comment). Why was his judgement good? Nobody got hurt.

[cavortingcheetah]

Re: lock door policy

I take my little furry head between both paws and peer carefully over the parapet out into the bushveldt, conscious of the fact that out there in the dark, behind the stable door, lurk many perils.
It seems to me that, had T69 filed a report, her name might subsequently be covered with perhaps a certain degree of opprobrium, much the more so as she is a junior crew member and also possibly was acting under a degree of personal strain that day.
I am sure that no one wants to operate in a company tarred with a reputation as a cabin crew member in front of whom one must watch one's back. Such an invidious reputation can fly like the wind through crew rooms and profits no one at all!
It all depends upon the flight deck crew of course, but I should have thought that one possible way out of the predicament might have been a word to the First Officer at an appropriate moment, an avenue which, so far I think, has been unexplored. After all, it is perhaps rather more up to that individual to raise an objection with the skipper in the very first instance than it is within the purlieu of a junior cabin attendant.
Indeed, there might be some out there who would deem it the First Officer's responsibility as much as the Captain's to preserve the inegrity of the flight deck.