Concorde - Danger to the public?

[vapilot2004]

Is my perception wrong or are there some of our friends from the USA who cannot accept the rest of the world, and UK in particular, can do some things better.

Workinghard:
Nationalistic mentalities - hard to avoid sometimes - makes you wonder if IQ has any bearing on it !

Read my post on page 3 of this thread. you'll see you've got 1 big speedbird fan over here in the colony !

For the rest of the bickering bunch here - couple of points for both sides of the Atlantic:

The United States was colonized by subjects of the Crown - Point UK !

Without the French, the US would not be free - Point France !

WWII - Normandy - D-Day - Point USA !

proves what exactly ? - throughout 4 centuries of history, there is a common thread of co-operation - call it multi-lateral dependence.

/sermon

We in England try and give credit where it is due, not denigrate anything better than we have done.

Workinghard, you're a funny guy

Cheerio -Now how about three cheers for Concorde - Hip Hip..........

[Complex_Type]

WWII - Normandy - D-Day - Point USA !

Whoa! That's Hollywood History at its finest.

Omaha Beach / Utah beach = USA

Gold Beach / Juno Beach / Sword Beach = UK / Canada.

Mulberry Harbour = UK. PLUTO = UK.

[Antoninus]

It just wasn't ENOUGH of a time-saver. Speed from takeoff to touchdown was wonderful, but that wasn't sufficient; From Manhattan to Montmartre still required surface transport, baggage check & claim, airport surface congestion, and other queues that seriously diluted the speed advantage of the Concorde.

Well.. Leaving Paris at 12:00 noon and landing in New York at 11:00 AM seem to be a pretty good time saver.. A lot of business people could make the trip to the US and back in 24 hours.
As it looks today, the speed advantage of non-supersonic aircraft is even more diluted than before, given the fact that security is tight and mass transportation, inevitably, causes congestions.
The last time I flew to Geneva, the plane was taking off from Roissy CDG. I spent an hour and a half to get there (rush hour)and another hour and a half waiting at the airport, The flight lasts about 45 minutes.. Total three hours and forty five minutes. Add the trip from the airport to Geneva center --15 minutes-- and that's four hours flat.
Slower than the TGV high speed train that takes you from the center of Paris to the center of Geneva in three and a half hours.
No waiting, no security, leg room, bar, scenery..

[barit1]

Well.. Leaving Paris at 12:00 noon and landing in New York at 11:00 AM seem to be a pretty good time saver

Of course, Antoninus, but CDG isn't Paris, and JFK isn't New York.

The rest of your post substantiates why European Rail is so attractive.

(Or at least it appears attractive as long as its true cost remains a State secret...)

[Complex_Type]

Of course, Antoninus, but CDG isn't Paris, and JFK isn't New York

Except that Concorde PAX were paying a small foturne for their tickets, and could roll up to check in with minutes to spare, go through the express channels and stroll on board, or get pampered in the Concorde lounge. Much like some airlines do now with limos and bag checkins from your location for first class travellers. Regardless of how long it takes at each end, it still saves hours.

[unmanned transport]

Western technology was driving us to the Moon and Mars
while you fine folk on the Island were playing around with Supersonics thinking you had something, sexygal.

How would ya like to ride in a craft re-entering the atmosphere at 25,000 MPH surrounded in a fireball, then hoping that those big 'chutes up top would go to full blossom.

Technology will keep advancing.

[vapilot2004]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
WWII - Normandy - D-Day - Point USA !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whoa! That's Hollywood History at its finest.

Omaha Beach / Utah beach = USA

Gold Beach / Juno Beach / Sword Beach = UK / Canada.

Mulberry Harbour = UK. PLUTO = UK.

Sorry, Complex_Type I don't quite follow you - hollywood history ?
Are you saying there were no US sacrifices made in Normandy ? (only one part of the WWII Atlantic Campaign) According to my data - United States Military deaths and Injury estimates NORMANDY INVASION: 29,000 DEAD, 106,000 WOUNDED and MISSING

From the US ARMY U.S. Divisions Active in the Normandy Campaign 6 June-24 July l944

1st Infantry Division - 79th Infantry Division - 2d Infantry Division-83d Infantry Division -4th Infantry Division - 90th Infantry Division - 5th Infantry Division - 2d Armored Division - 8th Infantry Division - 3d Armored Division - 9th Infantry Division - 4th Armored Division - 28th Infantry Division - 6th Armored Division - 29th Infantry Division - 82d Airborne Division -30th Infantry Division - 101st Airborne Division - 35th Infantry Division

Don't think this many divisions were over there playing hopscotch and I'm pretty sure our guys didn't die from syphillis or food poisoning. Might want to check your facts on what went on and who died for whom.

And so to make my intended point again - lest one might read me as a US-centric snob/idiot:

The UK, France and the US have a long history together. The United States were founded by Englishmen, we owe our freedom to France, the United Kingdom and France (among a few other countries - ) should appreciate US sacrifices during WWII - ensuring freedoms they enjoy today. It's a balance - current politics not withstanding - our shared history should not be forgotten.

Nationalistic pride is fine - blind allegiance is questionable - brand/country bashing is moronic.

And before we move on to something completely different - the Concorde was a damn fine piece of machinery !

Regards,
vapilot

[Complex_Type]

Sorry, Complex_Type I don't quite follow you - hollywood history ?

I'm not saying there were no US sacrifices, in fact whilst we are checking facts I already pointed out the US action at Omaha and Utah beach - the allied code names for the beaches in Normandy where the infantry went ashore........, the Canadians and British went ashore and Gold, Juno and Sword beaches.

Your post, on the other hand, mentioned D-Day and Normandy in the context of USA only. "Point USA'. As one part of a European conflict that was 3 years old before the USA added its weight.

The re-written versions of WWII history (and history in general) by Hollywood is starting to become fact in the minds of some. The contribution of the USA to the allied victory in Europe WWII was huge but not total, and certainly no greater than the contribution of the Soviet Union.

Now, have you found me an Enigma machine yet?

[barit1]

If you visit Le Bourget air museum, you will learn that the French won the war all by themselves.

[Dream Land]

And then there's the Comet!

DL

[unmanned transport]

Not forgetting the Tiger Moth

UT.

[mfaff]

Interesting...

Both the Space programme (Apollo and Space Shuttle) and Concorde are fanastic technological achievements.... and sadly both have delivered their greatest values as 'sideshows' to the main event...

Lets face it Conocrde as a commercial airliner was not a success but the lessons learnt in pan European co-operation and multi site manfacturing has resulted in Airbus... not a sahbby legacy.

The Space programme, especially Apollo, taught the Us and the world that prgramme management was the key to delivering the project goals on time. The lessons learn there have been applied countless time since then to great efffect in civil infrastrucutre works, manufacturing programmes etc.. .but Apollo served its purpose and then stopped... it had nowhere to go..no future.

Equally the Space Shuttle will have lived only to show its was not possible to do what it set out to do.....
But lessons learnt in doing so will live on regardless.

What these show is that regardless of the headlines... safe/ unsafe/ useful/ useless these programmes serve to increase the skill, the knowledge and the abilities of those who particiapte and that is never lost or wasted...

[barit1]

I believe the French may have had the greater motivation, evidenced by a Frenchman escaping across the (ahem) English Channel by plane as early as 1909!

[MikeJeff]

Unmanned Transport.. then we have (to quote the Simpsons) "The Pride of the US Airforce.. the British Built harrier jump jet!!"

You didn't even make it into space first

"Two world wars and one world cup.. doo dah doo dah"

[unmanned transport]

Wilbur and Orville even moved to France once.

At a time there were more AC on the French registery
than in the USA. hmm:

[vapilot2004]

I'm not saying there were no US sacrifices, in fact whilst we are checking facts I already pointed out the US action at Omaha and Utah beach - the allied code names for the beaches in Normandy where the infantry went ashore

Ahhh......well then...yes there were sacrifices all around....didn't mean to say there weren't - scuzi scuzi.
Hope that won't cloud my original meaning.

We have skewed history lessons in French, British, German, Italiano, American, or _______ flavors of recent history......political really. I totally agree that Hollywood versions are not so much skewed more like stewed.

Finally, while I can't help you find it, I should like to buy you a drink and talk about the Enigma of this thread.

If you visit Le Bourget air museum, you will learn that the French won the war all by themselves

LOL
Reminds me of a lesson I learned in school and a certain canal - some Panamanian friends clued me in on that tale. Our Mr. Carter got that one right finally for us.

Now on to this C.B. ....(hope I got the vernacular right.........Right)..

And then there's the Comet!
DL

Ahhh the Dehavilland DH.88 Comet - Incredible machine - 250 KTS top speed, long range, retractable gear, flaps all in the 1930's - and very sexy and rare

Now, to stay on message here.......
Shouldn't we all wish someone** would buy up the remaining Concordes and put them back in the air where they should be.........I really would like my supersonic passenger certificate !

** Are you listening Sir Richard or HH Sheikh Ahmed ??

[unmanned transport]

"The Pride of the US Airforce.. the British Built harrier jump jet!!"
**************************************************

Yes the Harrier is a super machine, it would be great if it had Mach2 capability.

Too lazy to check now, but was that 'Soviet' VTOL craft before or after the Harrier?

[mfaff]

Pleny of VTOL aircraft.. including jets prior to the Harrier.. including American ones... Ryan X-13 Vertijet anyone...Bell X-14....

And the Yak-38 was the result of numerous Soviet research types including the Freehand...

BUT and its the one that really pisses the US off.. the Harrier was the first to enter operational service, to prove it worked as an aircraft, to prove it was a worthwhile weapons system, to demonstrate the value of vector thrust in combat etc etc... all of which had been sidelined by the US view that is was 'never' going to work....

Since then the Harrier has been adopted by McD (now Boeing) for the Marines (AV-8B et al) and has served as the fundamental concept for the JSF programme...so kudos to the UK for doing it first and kudos to the US for realising the 'real' potential of the type and making it a primary all arms weapons platform...far beyond the original intent.. even if the F-35 uses a UK invented and developed powerplant....

[WorkingHard]

When I posted my views on 27th August about Concorde I really had no idea the invective that would follow, particularly from some in the USA. Please, let us not go to war with our American friends, even verbally. If our technological excellence upsets you that much then just ask and you can buy it.

[clicker]

Minor point but I thought the USAF didn't have any Harriers, the USMC does.

Although the USAF may have tried out the P1127 and/or Kestrel?