Pax evacuation
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Pax evacuation
Following the AF 340 and the successful (if a bit slow?) evacuation, just HOW do we get the pax to understand that it is IMPORTANT to get off toute-suite and that their handbaggage should stay where it is - or they may have no hands with which to hold it?
Did they think they were on stand? Let's take a picture of the happy evacuation.
This assumes, of course, that the reports are correct.
Is it time that the airlines' PR darlings allowed PAs that actually frighten the pax into listening and learning rather than pussy-footing around with 'should the cabin air supply fail' etc? How's about 'if a bomb blows a big hole in the fuselage at 41,000ft, make sure......'?
Only joking, naturally.........
BUT - it obviously is not getting through. We are even told that it was a SOP to REBRIEF the evacuation on the way into destination. Any ideas?
Did they think they were on stand? Let's take a picture of the happy evacuation. This assumes, of course, that the reports are correct.
Is it time that the airlines' PR darlings allowed PAs that actually frighten the pax into listening and learning rather than pussy-footing around with 'should the cabin air supply fail' etc? How's about 'if a bomb blows a big hole in the fuselage at 41,000ft, make sure......'?
Only joking, naturally.........
BUT - it obviously is not getting through. We are even told that it was a SOP to REBRIEF the evacuation on the way into destination. Any ideas?
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Some time ago I've seen an interesting study regarding people response to stress.
About 10% will remain calm and do whatever necessary to exit safely the danger area.They will find the right way to do it.
The most percentage ,something like 80% will behave like cattles,will wait to be ordered to do something.They'll be in shock ,but they'll do what they are told to do.They'll even start to do normal things,like getting up,get stuck on the isle and trying to remove the handluggage.
The rest 10 % will act as mofts,attracted by the flame.A small percentage of the people will ,in shock,jump directly into fire.
This was,unfortunately,what happened in Manchester accident,where most of the people were unable to leave the plane safely.They all get stuck while trying to remove their belongings,or tring to exit the doors at the same time.
Regarding your question,hmm,maybe some autolocks that will lock the overhead compartments during crises will help encouraging people to leave their stuff on the plane and get out fast.
Brgds...
Alex
about the AF340 evac,you said it was a bit slow?They've said on tv something about 50 sec?Don't trust the pax ,they'll think it was a lot longer.
About 10% will remain calm and do whatever necessary to exit safely the danger area.They will find the right way to do it.
The most percentage ,something like 80% will behave like cattles,will wait to be ordered to do something.They'll be in shock ,but they'll do what they are told to do.They'll even start to do normal things,like getting up,get stuck on the isle and trying to remove the handluggage.
The rest 10 % will act as mofts,attracted by the flame.A small percentage of the people will ,in shock,jump directly into fire.
This was,unfortunately,what happened in Manchester accident,where most of the people were unable to leave the plane safely.They all get stuck while trying to remove their belongings,or tring to exit the doors at the same time.
Regarding your question,hmm,maybe some autolocks that will lock the overhead compartments during crises will help encouraging people to leave their stuff on the plane and get out fast.
Brgds...
Alex
about the AF340 evac,you said it was a bit slow?They've said on tv something about 50 sec?Don't trust the pax ,they'll think it was a lot longer.
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Thanks Alexban - locked overheads would merely cause a slower evac as the pax could not open them to get at the duty-free and would be pressing the call-buttons for help
'Slow' A340 evac is based on reports that the pax stopped for hand baggage and took mobile phone pics of the 'rush' to the door. It is NOT meant in any way to be a criticism of the crew's actions which I'm sure were outstanding. Despite my call for 'wait for the investigation' I cannot see how 50 secs is possible in those conditions? 90 secs for a percentage is considered 'acceptable' and that involves pushing and shoving to get to a slide.
'Slow' A340 evac is based on reports that the pax stopped for hand baggage and took mobile phone pics of the 'rush' to the door. It is NOT meant in any way to be a criticism of the crew's actions which I'm sure were outstanding. Despite my call for 'wait for the investigation' I cannot see how 50 secs is possible in those conditions? 90 secs for a percentage is considered 'acceptable' and that involves pushing and shoving to get to a slide.
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Plane slides under review from crash
Inflatable evacuation slides made by Goodrich Aircraft Interior Products will be under scrutiny during the investigation into the accident of the Air France's Flight 358. Some reports from those aboard said one emergency slide failed to open and another became tangled during activation.
Plane slides under review from crash
Plane slides under review from crash
BOAC, two points which you are probably already aware of.
First, although the certification requirements specify an evacuation time of 90 sec, this does not mean that all evacuations in an emergency will be within that time. Both the timing and conditions of the test only provide a benchmark for the industry.
The fact that humans will be human and take bags etc with them during an evacuation is typical of most human (erroneous) behavior and thus unless the situation is extreme with an immediate threat to life little will change. How many of the Toronto pax could see the fire?
Second, Prof Muir (unjustly criticized for the media briefing - Toronto thread) would probably explain to us that the dominant feature in an evacuation is the behavior of the cabin crew (and cabin geometry – AF A340 very good?).
An assertive manner, clear directions, and good self control in what could be fearful circumstances, will do more to assist an evacuation than will a lengthy preflight or in-flight briefing.
Many pre flight briefings are tedious, boring, some possibly irrelevant; and many people do not pay attention or remember the details. However there are some benefits to be gained, so don’t give up - “The Big Brief” and “Listen Up” Flight Safety Australia (safety magazine), March-April 2001 and July-August 2001
A well trained crew, clearly identifiable as being in charge – uniform, positive manner, well coordinated, and as necessary ‘forcibly direct’ (kick up the a …) will save lives. I hope that the Toronto investigation shows this; the cabin crews deserve more recognition for their contributions to safety given the extensive hustle they suffer in daily (routine) operations.
For those who do venture into press statements or media briefing (or Pprune posts) don’t forget that the media generally present a ‘negative’ viewpoint. This is not necessarily all their fault, in part it is what the public wants – to be thrilled, mildly frightened, to have something that riles them so that they may feel affronted and whish to complain (or respond to Pprune). There are major differences when the general public is or could be generally fearful, as seen recently in London, then mass appeasement is required with fact, truth, and more sensible reporting.
First, although the certification requirements specify an evacuation time of 90 sec, this does not mean that all evacuations in an emergency will be within that time. Both the timing and conditions of the test only provide a benchmark for the industry.
The fact that humans will be human and take bags etc with them during an evacuation is typical of most human (erroneous) behavior and thus unless the situation is extreme with an immediate threat to life little will change. How many of the Toronto pax could see the fire?
Second, Prof Muir (unjustly criticized for the media briefing - Toronto thread) would probably explain to us that the dominant feature in an evacuation is the behavior of the cabin crew (and cabin geometry – AF A340 very good?).
An assertive manner, clear directions, and good self control in what could be fearful circumstances, will do more to assist an evacuation than will a lengthy preflight or in-flight briefing.
Many pre flight briefings are tedious, boring, some possibly irrelevant; and many people do not pay attention or remember the details. However there are some benefits to be gained, so don’t give up - “The Big Brief” and “Listen Up” Flight Safety Australia (safety magazine), March-April 2001 and July-August 2001
A well trained crew, clearly identifiable as being in charge – uniform, positive manner, well coordinated, and as necessary ‘forcibly direct’ (kick up the a …) will save lives. I hope that the Toronto investigation shows this; the cabin crews deserve more recognition for their contributions to safety given the extensive hustle they suffer in daily (routine) operations.
For those who do venture into press statements or media briefing (or Pprune posts) don’t forget that the media generally present a ‘negative’ viewpoint. This is not necessarily all their fault, in part it is what the public wants – to be thrilled, mildly frightened, to have something that riles them so that they may feel affronted and whish to complain (or respond to Pprune). There are major differences when the general public is or could be generally fearful, as seen recently in London, then mass appeasement is required with fact, truth, and more sensible reporting.
Perhaps a pre-landing briefing could be made:
In the event of an evacuation, those idiots insisting on retrieving cabin baggage must remain seated until all those without cabin baggage have deplanned.
Passengers evacuating without cabin baggage are encouraged to trample over any idiot blocking an aisle while retrieving cabin baggage as that will ensure the fastest possible evacuation and the best prospects of survival for all on board.
We suggest that passports and vital items be secured on your body before the landing approach
Passengers evacuating without cabin baggage are encouraged to trample over any idiot blocking an aisle while retrieving cabin baggage as that will ensure the fastest possible evacuation and the best prospects of survival for all on board.
We suggest that passports and vital items be secured on your body before the landing approach
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passport stuck to body
this is a valid point...how did Canadian customs process the passengers as they stumbled from the aircraft...did they insist on two lines, or a free for all.......and what about those passports that were damaged.........were they sent to the back of the line...
Not forgetting the new airport improvement tax on arrivals......
Also, if I had my camera/phone I would also use the camera.....(I have the E Mail address and mobile contact number for pics download to a news agency)....if the news papers, (like USA today) say these should not be published they are blinkered.....The investiagtion aurthorites would love these pics, as they show the actual situation on board, as the incident unfolds.....101% better than pax memories, or even crews memories. I video recorded an (entire) crash many years ago, and the authorities used the video as the time line for the validation of eye witness statements, and the emergency response time.
As to the briefing...anything that gets the pax to actually listen has to be good news.....
Bumz
Not forgetting the new airport improvement tax on arrivals......
Also, if I had my camera/phone I would also use the camera.....(I have the E Mail address and mobile contact number for pics download to a news agency)....if the news papers, (like USA today) say these should not be published they are blinkered.....The investiagtion aurthorites would love these pics, as they show the actual situation on board, as the incident unfolds.....101% better than pax memories, or even crews memories. I video recorded an (entire) crash many years ago, and the authorities used the video as the time line for the validation of eye witness statements, and the emergency response time.
As to the briefing...anything that gets the pax to actually listen has to be good news.....
Bumz
BOAC
DOn't know how you get them to listen. Flew out of French airport day after the YYZ accident happened on a Brit Airline with mostly Brit Pax...and despite the widely published accident the previous day there were still significant numbers of pax talking or reading papers during the safety brief. Frankly I'm past caring wether these ignorant ******** live or die but I am concerned that I, my family or others will be impeded by these idiots should we have to get out in a hurry.
DOn't know how you get them to listen. Flew out of French airport day after the YYZ accident happened on a Brit Airline with mostly Brit Pax...and despite the widely published accident the previous day there were still significant numbers of pax talking or reading papers during the safety brief. Frankly I'm past caring wether these ignorant ******** live or die but I am concerned that I, my family or others will be impeded by these idiots should we have to get out in a hurry.
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Bumz,
Why don't you have the e-mail and contact numbers for the air accident investigators instead of a news agency? After all, you would be filming it to assist the investigation rather than trying to make money and attain your 15 minutes of fame - right?
Why don't you have the e-mail and contact numbers for the air accident investigators instead of a news agency? After all, you would be filming it to assist the investigation rather than trying to make money and attain your 15 minutes of fame - right?
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i agree with BOAC, airlines do need to stop pussy footing around safety and, while not scaring the beejeesus out of the cattle, at least de-fluff it all. The crap that is spewed out about scaring the pax is mince! do passengers on cruise ships get scared when the do the lifeboat drill in full get-up? No!
BA and easyJet have some of the vest worded demo's i've heard. they're not scary, but the get the point across. shoes off so you don't tear the slides bla bla. Not where i work! It's all a bit cover what the CAA say we have to and NO more.
Even the overwing briefing is a bit crap. That being said, i do it like i did before i came here and haven't scare a pax yet. a smile when you're doing it seems to help. and besides, if they get scared at just the thought of opeing the hatch then they shouldnt be sitting there!
BA and easyJet have some of the vest worded demo's i've heard. they're not scary, but the get the point across. shoes off so you don't tear the slides bla bla. Not where i work! It's all a bit cover what the CAA say we have to and NO more.
Even the overwing briefing is a bit crap. That being said, i do it like i did before i came here and haven't scare a pax yet. a smile when you're doing it seems to help. and besides, if they get scared at just the thought of opeing the hatch then they shouldnt be sitting there!
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Perhaps frequent flyers could be issued with a card stating that they are willing and able to operate the overwing exits. They could be given a gold card if they agreed to attend a couple of hours instruction, given at most larger airports these days. If all the airlines agreed then they could be allocated these seats as they booked their tickets.
On the few occasions when there is no such card holder on board then the detailed breifing as is currently given by some airlines should suffice.
On the few occasions when there is no such card holder on board then the detailed breifing as is currently given by some airlines should suffice.
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BB - Our overwing exit brief was useful when my J41 caught fire in1998.
An 18 year old threw it so far it slid under the aircraft on the next stand.
If you ask firemen about the evacuation situation they say people respond best to being shouted at. They cannot be expected to perform that well without direct action..one minute they are sitting in a nice aircond cabin...seconds later bangs/deceleration/aircraft breaks open and our totally untrained punters are so far up the stress curve they become cabbages.
An 18 year old threw it so far it slid under the aircraft on the next stand.
If you ask firemen about the evacuation situation they say people respond best to being shouted at. They cannot be expected to perform that well without direct action..one minute they are sitting in a nice aircond cabin...seconds later bangs/deceleration/aircraft breaks open and our totally untrained punters are so far up the stress curve they become cabbages.
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Maude: I am /was a media tart !!!!
Sorry for the long delay in reponding.
At that time in my life I also worked for the BBC, so had split interests, and much more than 15 mins fame....
So the tape was given to the authorities, and "sold" it to the BBC.
It is used at Cranfield, for training rapid respnse crews.
Mike: totally agree, when down the back, I owe it to the operating crew to pay attention. if I dont would the rest of the pax....I dont think so, but I do have some scruples.....honest...
Bumz
At that time in my life I also worked for the BBC, so had split interests, and much more than 15 mins fame....
So the tape was given to the authorities, and "sold" it to the BBC.
It is used at Cranfield, for training rapid respnse crews.
Mike: totally agree, when down the back, I owe it to the operating crew to pay attention. if I dont would the rest of the pax....I dont think so, but I do have some scruples.....honest...
Bumz
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Just a few points.
If you are going to take a picture inside a cabin during evacuation, turn towards the onrushing pax and get their facial expressions in close up if possible. If you have audio, so much the better. If you can edit the pics before sending, make sure there is lots of smoke and a big red glow in one corner. Encourage fellow pax to open lockers, take duty free and passports as the authourities will require these to process your arrival.
Finally, scream hysterically when interviewed and tell the world that you thought you were going to die. Do not, under any circumstances, admit to reading or chatting during the useless safety briefing. Blame the airline for everything including the post partum distress.
Do not take no for no answer and always have a go at any Low Cost airlines you can remember the names of.
This will generate massive revenue for the news media and earn you years of grateful exposure, hopefully to nuclear radiation.
If you are going to take a picture inside a cabin during evacuation, turn towards the onrushing pax and get their facial expressions in close up if possible. If you have audio, so much the better. If you can edit the pics before sending, make sure there is lots of smoke and a big red glow in one corner. Encourage fellow pax to open lockers, take duty free and passports as the authourities will require these to process your arrival.
Finally, scream hysterically when interviewed and tell the world that you thought you were going to die. Do not, under any circumstances, admit to reading or chatting during the useless safety briefing. Blame the airline for everything including the post partum distress.
Do not take no for no answer and always have a go at any Low Cost airlines you can remember the names of.
This will generate massive revenue for the news media and earn you years of grateful exposure, hopefully to nuclear radiation.
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now, how on earth did these people find the time to find their phone, undo their seat belt get into the aisle, then remember to switch it on, wait for it to roam about for a network, get the camera activated and then take a photo?
Or perhaps they more than likely didnt have a care in the world, on approach, saw the ground coming and had the phone switched on already before the plane left the end of the runway?
My phone takes more than 50 seconds to switch on and function, and thats not when my ruddy great plane has hurtled of the end of the runway and sits burning!!
Or perhaps they more than likely didnt have a care in the world, on approach, saw the ground coming and had the phone switched on already before the plane left the end of the runway?
My phone takes more than 50 seconds to switch on and function, and thats not when my ruddy great plane has hurtled of the end of the runway and sits burning!!
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Its not always the fault of the passengers - In fact its never the fault of the passengers. The Cabin crew are in charge of evacuating the aircraft not the passengers.
Take Qantas QF1 which over ran bangkok, ended up in a field and the passengers remained strapped to their seats for 20 minutes because the Cabin Crew couldn't be bothered evacuatiing.
Take Qantas QF1 which over ran bangkok, ended up in a field and the passengers remained strapped to their seats for 20 minutes because the Cabin Crew couldn't be bothered evacuatiing.
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Southside, you are talking utter ignorant nonsense.
From the ATSB, investigation Report 199904538
BOAC wholeheartedly agree. As crew, we do of course always have the choice of disregarding the PR clowns and giving a briefing that is legal, interesting and effective.
I have been doing just that for 5 years now, also when being checked out, and so far nothing but compliments from pax, crew and even the checkies.For me personally, it is the only ethical choice.
From the ATSB, investigation Report 199904538
The captain assessed that the appropriate response was to wait for outside assistance and then conduct a precautionary disembarkation, rather than initiate an immediate evacuation. ...... Approximately 20 minutes after the accident, the crew initiated a precautionary disembarkation from the right side of the aircraft using the emergency escape slides. Although the disembarkation was achieved largely without incident, there were arguably sufficient ‘unknowns’ concerning the condition of the aircraft, and possible related hazards, for an earlier evacuation to have been conducted.
I have been doing just that for 5 years now, also when being checked out, and so far nothing but compliments from pax, crew and even the checkies.For me personally, it is the only ethical choice.