women in cockpit
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women in cockpit
Hi there.
human factor has been pointed out as a safety issue in aviation. Therefore CRM training is mandatory for pilots. I have received different training about human factors and human performance and limitation. But no trainer was talking about the difference between male and female kind of thinking. Since the developement of new medical technologie we know, that the brain of a male is completely different to a female brain. I do not say that one is better than the other, they are just different.
As a male pilot, i have a lot of problems with our female pilots like :
-" i can not do the outside check because i get dirty"
- "i can not carry the baggage, because it is to heavy"
- "i will not fly the visual approach (pretty VMC), lets do the ILS"
- it is hard to find a subject to talk about during long distance flights
- "I can not do this, because I am a women......."
- you have to take care about what you are saying
- there are a lot of misunderstandings, because women are used to talk more crabwise
The female pilots I have met have the attitude of beeing overeager and rigid.
Their flying skills are not bad, but they are studying the approach plates hours before landing and they are not flexible when situations change.
These are my experience, most of my (male) colleagues of my company do agree.
I know, that my statement is politically not correct, but would it not be easier to have only a complete male or complete female cockpit crew??
I am interested to hear your statements. Also interested in statements of female pilots who might have a lot of problems with the male pilots.
human factor has been pointed out as a safety issue in aviation. Therefore CRM training is mandatory for pilots. I have received different training about human factors and human performance and limitation. But no trainer was talking about the difference between male and female kind of thinking. Since the developement of new medical technologie we know, that the brain of a male is completely different to a female brain. I do not say that one is better than the other, they are just different.
As a male pilot, i have a lot of problems with our female pilots like :
-" i can not do the outside check because i get dirty"
- "i can not carry the baggage, because it is to heavy"
- "i will not fly the visual approach (pretty VMC), lets do the ILS"
- it is hard to find a subject to talk about during long distance flights
- "I can not do this, because I am a women......."
- you have to take care about what you are saying
- there are a lot of misunderstandings, because women are used to talk more crabwise
The female pilots I have met have the attitude of beeing overeager and rigid.
Their flying skills are not bad, but they are studying the approach plates hours before landing and they are not flexible when situations change.
These are my experience, most of my (male) colleagues of my company do agree.
I know, that my statement is politically not correct, but would it not be easier to have only a complete male or complete female cockpit crew??
I am interested to hear your statements. Also interested in statements of female pilots who might have a lot of problems with the male pilots.
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That I suspect will get a lot of people going!
I don't have any direct experience but my 2nd cousin flew 70 types during WW2, over 2,000 hours delivering everything from Moths to Spitfires, Lancasters and Liberators all using the very brief ATA pilot notes, with no type conversions and generally solo (not I assume in the 4 engine types) and without radio or nav aids. The 1st time she did a single engine landing in a multi it was for real (Mitchell I think). After the war SHE went on to fly Jets in the RAFVR, airliners, transports (C130 etc) and business aircraft. And she only crashed one! (DC3 in Fog).
I know she (and many others) could be the exceptions to the rule, but don’t think that all lady drivers are inflexible and rigid, or denigrate their general skill level as there is no reason to think things have changed that much in 60 years.
A less confrontational approach than your post might however generate some interesting thoughts on crew cooperation with a mixed or indeed all female crew.
I don't have any direct experience but my 2nd cousin flew 70 types during WW2, over 2,000 hours delivering everything from Moths to Spitfires, Lancasters and Liberators all using the very brief ATA pilot notes, with no type conversions and generally solo (not I assume in the 4 engine types) and without radio or nav aids. The 1st time she did a single engine landing in a multi it was for real (Mitchell I think). After the war SHE went on to fly Jets in the RAFVR, airliners, transports (C130 etc) and business aircraft. And she only crashed one! (DC3 in Fog).
I know she (and many others) could be the exceptions to the rule, but don’t think that all lady drivers are inflexible and rigid, or denigrate their general skill level as there is no reason to think things have changed that much in 60 years.
A less confrontational approach than your post might however generate some interesting thoughts on crew cooperation with a mixed or indeed all female crew.
ECON cruise, LR cruise...
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Oh-my oh-my 
...
Like flying with female crew! As well as male, mind you... It all depends on peoples ability to bring out the best in the entire crew.
If you start focusing on the strong points of female crew, you might enjoy the experience more. Their brains work different from ours
which provides the great opportunity of different approaches & strategies from both pilots. Well managed, this can bring huge rewards in terms of problem analysis and solving.
If able to overcome the initial gender barrier, I believe that a female/male crew might be harder to break than a female/female or male/male crew. Have seen this in the sim, both with female captn & male f/o and vice versa.
My 2 eurocents worth...
Brgds fm
Empty
...Like flying with female crew! As well as male, mind you... It all depends on peoples ability to bring out the best in the entire crew.
If you start focusing on the strong points of female crew, you might enjoy the experience more. Their brains work different from ours
which provides the great opportunity of different approaches & strategies from both pilots. Well managed, this can bring huge rewards in terms of problem analysis and solving.If able to overcome the initial gender barrier, I believe that a female/male crew might be harder to break than a female/female or male/male crew. Have seen this in the sim, both with female captn & male f/o and vice versa.
My 2 eurocents worth...
Brgds fm
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.....why?....why should anyone be careful about voicing their opinion here? Gender issures should be discussed just as openly as any other issue. Being scared of looking "un-pc" is counter productive and sadly more and more prevelent every year as left wing, life-skill starved politicians push more and more pc legislation through rewarding loafers and dicouraging people from taking responsability for themselves.....(whew....that feels better....didn't even know it was in there)
My thoughts.....people who lump all women or all men into one group are a bit thick. People who don't recognise that men and women often have different yet complimentary ways of thinking need to ditch the paradigms they were raised to and look around.
I flew a sector the other day with a female captain, She seemed to have pretty average skills for a captain but created an awesome CRM atmosphere in the flightdeck. I had just done a sector with a male captain who was highly skilled and very experienced in handling the aircraft but had poor CRM. Which flight was more likely to come to grief ya reckon? It's pretty obvious to me.
c u
PS Learjet driver.....I feel sorry for you dude....you just dont 'get 'chicks do you...(you can read that two ways, both are applicable)
My thoughts.....people who lump all women or all men into one group are a bit thick. People who don't recognise that men and women often have different yet complimentary ways of thinking need to ditch the paradigms they were raised to and look around.
I flew a sector the other day with a female captain, She seemed to have pretty average skills for a captain but created an awesome CRM atmosphere in the flightdeck. I had just done a sector with a male captain who was highly skilled and very experienced in handling the aircraft but had poor CRM. Which flight was more likely to come to grief ya reckon? It's pretty obvious to me.
c u
PS Learjet driver.....I feel sorry for you dude....you just dont 'get 'chicks do you...(you can read that two ways, both are applicable)
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Seems you have bad luck with your lady pilots Mr. Lear.
The several I have flown with over the years have all done the job as well as if not better than most of their male colleagues. They would certainly not skip the walk-around etc. nor would they ever ask or be offered to skip such things in my experience. Many are now Captains and those I still see are well regarded as such.
Maybe you need a bigger cockpit?
The several I have flown with over the years have all done the job as well as if not better than most of their male colleagues. They would certainly not skip the walk-around etc. nor would they ever ask or be offered to skip such things in my experience. Many are now Captains and those I still see are well regarded as such.
Maybe you need a bigger cockpit?
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So where does a recent op transgender man to woman pilot fit in to all this? Are their skills Arthur or Martha? Just curious and disingenious. Post op means they have proven to one and all in the medical community that they are pyscologicaly female.
Relax mods its a genuine query.
Relax mods its a genuine query.
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The only problem with females in the flightdeck is the CRM problems brought about by them having to fly with chauvinist pigs like learjetdriver.
Why the interest in transgender pilots,
dicksynormous . You thinking of changing your name to dicksgone ?
Why the interest in transgender pilots,
dicksynormous . You thinking of changing your name to dicksgone ?
Last edited by CAT1; 29th Jun 2005 at 08:22.
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I recognize a number of the points which Learjetdriver mentions. I could also add that our cabin crew have also had one or two problems with the attitude of one of our female pilots.
You'd be a fool to deny the different brain function of the male and femake brain. The bias IS that most male brains are better at technical understanding than most female brains. This disadvantage can be trained out.
Personally, I don't care for the gender issue as I expect the same standard and engagement from both male and female pilots.
You'd be a fool to deny the different brain function of the male and femake brain. The bias IS that most male brains are better at technical understanding than most female brains. This disadvantage can be trained out.
Personally, I don't care for the gender issue as I expect the same standard and engagement from both male and female pilots.
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Our cabin crew have had problems with the attitude of one of our male pilots. I don't think it's because he is male. I think it is because he is a 
While male and female brains do have differences, this does not mean one sex is neccessarily better at anything than the other. Indeed, as this paper shows, perhaps women are better at CRM.
In fact being male or female does not neccessarily mean you have a male or female brain. There's a test if you want to find out what sort of brain you have.
While male and female brains do have differences, this does not mean one sex is neccessarily better at anything than the other. Indeed, as this paper shows, perhaps women are better at CRM.
In fact being male or female does not neccessarily mean you have a male or female brain. There's a test if you want to find out what sort of brain you have.
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CAT1,
You contradict yourself. The whole point of the male and female brain being different is that there are advantages and disadvantages to both.
These differences aren't so extreme that they are absolute or that they cannot be trained out.
If you are married or have ever had a relationship with a woman you may remember how hard it can be know what they mean by what they say. How this makes for good CRM quite defeats me.
You contradict yourself. The whole point of the male and female brain being different is that there are advantages and disadvantages to both.
These differences aren't so extreme that they are absolute or that they cannot be trained out.
If you are married or have ever had a relationship with a woman you may remember how hard it can be know what they mean by what they say. How this makes for good CRM quite defeats me.
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Learjetdriver,
To answer your last question, I have NEVER had any problem with any male (or female) pilot.
Secondly, may I just go through your points:-
Daily inspection - I'm surprised that you have come across that attitude. As part of training, surely daily checks have to be performed and I, for one, am quite used to it and more than happy to do it. I would though prefer to wash my hands afterwards as I don't think oily fingernails give a good impression to the punters. Neither do oily shirts!
Bags too heavy - yes, it is true. Women, on the whole, are not as strong as men. If I can lift it, I will but if I can't, please don't say I'm a cr@p pilot etc etc because I'm short and weak.
I will not fly the Visual Approach - this may be a confidence thing possibly caused by blokes denegrating the woman's ability.
It is hard to find a subject to talk about - oh really! This is such a give away in how you view women and your relationships with them. Try a bit harder. You appear to be viewing women as foreign creatures, speaking a different language and with a different culture. OK, I don't want to talk about football; I don't give a rat's @rse about football but try rugger, horse racing or formula one. Just make the effort; you will have common ground.
I cannot do this because I am a woman... again, really? OK, there are some things that you can do that I can't and most of those are lavatorial!! Again, I am getting the impression here that your attitude would constantly undermine a woman's confidence and that you probably need a hard-nosed bitch like me to stand up to you!!
Misunderstandings? Women talking crabwise? What the heck does THAT mean? See? Misunderstandings! I don't know what you're talkng about. However, women do not like to offend and so will often chose a "veiled" way of saying things so as not to hurt feelings. It's a good skill; to be able to give someone a b0ll0cking and make them come away feeling as if they've done good! Only later does it dawn on them....
In many walks of life, women have to be better than the average man to be thought of as being half as good. It is certainly true in my field. It was commented earlier that the best pilot someone knew was a woman as was the worst pilot. When women are good, they are very, very good; when they are bad, they are hopeless. Most of us recognise into which category we fall. Men, however, tend to cluster around the median!! Just look at driving (but I don't want to start that discussion here - just maintaining that most men are just average drivers whereas women are either very good or very bad).
I would suggest trying to get to know ALL your colleagues as individuals rather than as any particular stereotype.
Cheers
Whirlygig
A helicopter pilot who happens to be female.
To answer your last question, I have NEVER had any problem with any male (or female) pilot.
Secondly, may I just go through your points:-
Daily inspection - I'm surprised that you have come across that attitude. As part of training, surely daily checks have to be performed and I, for one, am quite used to it and more than happy to do it. I would though prefer to wash my hands afterwards as I don't think oily fingernails give a good impression to the punters. Neither do oily shirts!
Bags too heavy - yes, it is true. Women, on the whole, are not as strong as men. If I can lift it, I will but if I can't, please don't say I'm a cr@p pilot etc etc because I'm short and weak.
I will not fly the Visual Approach - this may be a confidence thing possibly caused by blokes denegrating the woman's ability.
It is hard to find a subject to talk about - oh really! This is such a give away in how you view women and your relationships with them. Try a bit harder. You appear to be viewing women as foreign creatures, speaking a different language and with a different culture. OK, I don't want to talk about football; I don't give a rat's @rse about football but try rugger, horse racing or formula one. Just make the effort; you will have common ground.
I cannot do this because I am a woman... again, really? OK, there are some things that you can do that I can't and most of those are lavatorial!! Again, I am getting the impression here that your attitude would constantly undermine a woman's confidence and that you probably need a hard-nosed bitch like me to stand up to you!!
Misunderstandings? Women talking crabwise? What the heck does THAT mean? See? Misunderstandings! I don't know what you're talkng about. However, women do not like to offend and so will often chose a "veiled" way of saying things so as not to hurt feelings. It's a good skill; to be able to give someone a b0ll0cking and make them come away feeling as if they've done good! Only later does it dawn on them....
In many walks of life, women have to be better than the average man to be thought of as being half as good. It is certainly true in my field. It was commented earlier that the best pilot someone knew was a woman as was the worst pilot. When women are good, they are very, very good; when they are bad, they are hopeless. Most of us recognise into which category we fall. Men, however, tend to cluster around the median!! Just look at driving (but I don't want to start that discussion here - just maintaining that most men are just average drivers whereas women are either very good or very bad).
I would suggest trying to get to know ALL your colleagues as individuals rather than as any particular stereotype.
Cheers
Whirlygig
A helicopter pilot who happens to be female.
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Personally, I've not noticed the difference except that when taxying at "that speed" over a rough surface, the view of your female colleague is considerably improved over that of a male.
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Trust 'em with the change. . .
In "Flight International", mid to late eighties, an article appeared titled "Four Bars and Female". The issues raised included the inequitable amount of effort required by a woman to succeed compared with that applicable to a man of similar skill and aptitude. (A factor common to many industries, as often conceded.)
The cynics, the knockers, the chauvinists, the know-all, gimlet-faced 'Alpha' males will say "So what? This is the real world. . . .", and slam the door in the face of anyone in a skirt they don't fancy straight off.
Commercial aviation recruitment has no doubt progressed somewhat, by and large considering every applicant on his or her merits. Not to say though, that pockets of prejudice do not linger on, where misogynists cast two-faced shadows across their tilted minefields. (Cake mix? Metaphor mix? What's the diff?)
Deborah (Wardley) Lawrie's book, "Letting Fly", is a good primer for anyone wanting a handle on how to bolster the never say die ethic, when dead set, one hundred per cent, on the goal.
(PM me if you want one, her book, and cannot find a copy.)
Deborah took on Ansett in the early eighties and after trial after trial, won, and has not looked back.
The cynics, the knockers, the chauvinists, the know-all, gimlet-faced 'Alpha' males will say "So what? This is the real world. . . .", and slam the door in the face of anyone in a skirt they don't fancy straight off.
Commercial aviation recruitment has no doubt progressed somewhat, by and large considering every applicant on his or her merits. Not to say though, that pockets of prejudice do not linger on, where misogynists cast two-faced shadows across their tilted minefields. (Cake mix? Metaphor mix? What's the diff?)
Deborah (Wardley) Lawrie's book, "Letting Fly", is a good primer for anyone wanting a handle on how to bolster the never say die ethic, when dead set, one hundred per cent, on the goal.
(PM me if you want one, her book, and cannot find a copy.)
Deborah took on Ansett in the early eighties and after trial after trial, won, and has not looked back.
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"In "Flight International", mid to late eighties, an article appeared titled "Four Bars and Female". The issues raised included the inequitable amount of effort required by a woman to succeed compared with that applicable to a man of similar skill and aptitude. (A factor common to many industries, as often conceded.)"
Funny thing.....it's the other way round now....is that really progress?
Funny thing.....it's the other way round now....is that really progress?
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Funny thing?
Yep it is a funny thing.
I don't recall when doing my ATPL exams that there was a different pass mark for us women, I also don't recall from my IRT that there was a different set of standards I had to pass compared to my fellow male students.
What I do know is that due to a recent BA / Balpa case, I now need to include on my CV that despite being 26yrs old and female, I don't want kids. (And if I did, I wouldn't expect a commercial organisation to have to answer to my every wish).
I don't usually waste my breath on these types of threads, it just P*sses me off when people assume you are handed a job for reasons other than earning it. I tend to think my success in my current job (engineering based) is because I work hard at it.. why do people think flying is different?
I would like to think that I have the same licence as my JAA collegues (male or female), certainly when it arrived back from the CAA, it was contained in a nice blue wallet...pity, I should have asked for pink!
GQ (26, looking for a flying job and is most probably by now sterile)!
I don't recall when doing my ATPL exams that there was a different pass mark for us women, I also don't recall from my IRT that there was a different set of standards I had to pass compared to my fellow male students.
What I do know is that due to a recent BA / Balpa case, I now need to include on my CV that despite being 26yrs old and female, I don't want kids. (And if I did, I wouldn't expect a commercial organisation to have to answer to my every wish).
I don't usually waste my breath on these types of threads, it just P*sses me off when people assume you are handed a job for reasons other than earning it. I tend to think my success in my current job (engineering based) is because I work hard at it.. why do people think flying is different?
I would like to think that I have the same licence as my JAA collegues (male or female), certainly when it arrived back from the CAA, it was contained in a nice blue wallet...pity, I should have asked for pink!
GQ (26, looking for a flying job and is most probably by now sterile)!
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"I don't usually waste my breath on these types of threads, it just P*sses me off when people assume you are handed a job for reasons other than earning it."
Fact is, despite all the anti-sexual inequality legislation
BA "Actively recruit" female pilots.
Fact is, despite all the anti-sexual inequality legislation
BA "Actively recruit" female pilots.
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women on deck
it was ****ty weather i was flying through one day. i had two copliots on the deck with me. it got worse on climb out of 20 thou or so. both my copilots looked like they would start to cry, infact one actually did.both were males.on another trip with similar wx, the lady in the right with me was so calm that i actually felt lighter about the situation, so the only problem i see with women in the cockpit is , they actually have to fly with some real real nice pro body builder types who have no problems carrying any bag however big it is.
cheers
cheers
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Learjetdriver - Looks like you ruffled a few feathers over this one
I agree with you Women and Men can be very different and we should acknowledge that fact - "Stereotypically" women can multi task, socialise and communicate better - Men are generally better at map reading and spatial problems but like to focus on one task at a time.....these skills were developed around the neolithic camp fires where the women stayed together raising the kids (hence the communication and multitasking) whereas the men went off in groups to hunt which required focus on the task at hand and did not require lots of communication (in fact quite the opposite) - I know lots of people will think that I have lost the plot and am a cave man myself but that is not the case - Happily married to a woman who is getting better at reading maps and who can run multiple projects with the best of them !
I agree with you Women and Men can be very different and we should acknowledge that fact - "Stereotypically" women can multi task, socialise and communicate better - Men are generally better at map reading and spatial problems but like to focus on one task at a time.....these skills were developed around the neolithic camp fires where the women stayed together raising the kids (hence the communication and multitasking) whereas the men went off in groups to hunt which required focus on the task at hand and did not require lots of communication (in fact quite the opposite) - I know lots of people will think that I have lost the plot and am a cave man myself but that is not the case - Happily married to a woman who is getting better at reading maps and who can run multiple projects with the best of them !