women in cockpit
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'Active Recruitment'
So if airlines ' actively recruit women', there should in theory (if you take the number of women coming through the training system) be no unemployed female pilots.....hmmm I know several!
All I want is a level playing field. I don't want airlines to actively recruit women, nor do I want them to purposefully not recruit women. I have the same qualifications and a pretty good CV, thats all I wish to be judged on at the initial stages of recruitment (i.e pre interview).
Anyway, I'd best do some work although perhaps I needn't bother, I'll still get promoted because I have lumps in different places? (That certainly isn't the case in the organisation I work in).
All I want is a level playing field. I don't want airlines to actively recruit women, nor do I want them to purposefully not recruit women. I have the same qualifications and a pretty good CV, thats all I wish to be judged on at the initial stages of recruitment (i.e pre interview).
Anyway, I'd best do some work although perhaps I needn't bother, I'll still get promoted because I have lumps in different places? (That certainly isn't the case in the organisation I work in).
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: I wish I knew
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey, Guiness Queen, take a chill pill. I have to say that I don't agree with your reasoning (but maybe that's because I'm male and my brain works differently to yours 
). You don't have to see ALL female pilot wanabees in the front seats at BA for there to be a bias. I don't have the figures but I suggest that if you looked at the PERCENTAGES of pilots completing commercial training, you would find that a higher percentage of females find work than males.
POSITIVE DISCRIMINATION is a quite widely accepted concept. My hope is that it's just the "pendulum effect" - swinging to the other side of sensible to correct for days gone by - and that it will return to the world you describe of it not mattering what one's gender is, only their attributes.
Back on topic, the women I've flown with have been a mixed bunch...like the men.
LP
). You don't have to see ALL female pilot wanabees in the front seats at BA for there to be a bias. I don't have the figures but I suggest that if you looked at the PERCENTAGES of pilots completing commercial training, you would find that a higher percentage of females find work than males.POSITIVE DISCRIMINATION is a quite widely accepted concept. My hope is that it's just the "pendulum effect" - swinging to the other side of sensible to correct for days gone by - and that it will return to the world you describe of it not mattering what one's gender is, only their attributes.
Back on topic, the women I've flown with have been a mixed bunch...like the men.
LP
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Mostly hotels
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
those days are gone. we were better at reading maps because we read them and women didnt.now they read maps and have equal or better motor .yes there are a few bad one, but thats what THEY ARE. you dont generalise the whole community if there is a bad male pilot. same way there are bad female pilots.if there is any such thing as a bad pilot.personally i feel there is no bad pilot. some take hundred hrs ro get the idea and some a thousand.
Humus Motor
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: A little place called Samsonite
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whirlygig said a very perceptive thing:
I think this is spot on. No wonder they spend hours looking at the plates when they are sitting with someone who clearly thinks they shouldn't be there - they are terrified of fouling up in a very unfriendly environment. Treat someone (of either gender) as a fool and they'll go right ahead and fulfil your expectation, especially if they're inexperienced, in a subordinate position and feeling vulnerable because of the attitude of the Captain. Treat someone with respect, show that you have confidence in their abilities and guess what? - they'll fulfil the expectation!
Flying with women? Yawn - old issue - dead - drop it. You might as well ask what do I think of flying with people with ginger hair or brown eyes. It simply doesn't matter.
I will not fly the Visual Approach - this may be a confidence thing possibly caused by blokes denegrating the woman's ability.
Flying with women? Yawn - old issue - dead - drop it. You might as well ask what do I think of flying with people with ginger hair or brown eyes. It simply doesn't matter.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, I accept I was wrong with my analysis about 'positive discrimination' It's frustrating that the argument of positive discrimination is used against me. I have no direct influence over it - will my acheivements always be tarnished with the fact that it was not my hard work, merely my gender that got me where I am (or where I'm going) - very demoralising.
Its very frustrating when you are dedicated to a job as much as the next person and your competence is questionned because of your gender.
I'm also really surprised by the map reading, spatial awareness etc skills aspect of this thread. In my day job (Human Factors enginnering - aviation) we very much design for the physical differences between males and females (eg antropometric differences), yet we do not design for the cognitive differences. Perhaps that is because if you have qualified to the professional level, you must in some way be competent. (the training process will have chopped' those lacking the necessary skills).
Anyway, chill-pill has been taken!
Cheers
GQ
Its very frustrating when you are dedicated to a job as much as the next person and your competence is questionned because of your gender.
I'm also really surprised by the map reading, spatial awareness etc skills aspect of this thread. In my day job (Human Factors enginnering - aviation) we very much design for the physical differences between males and females (eg antropometric differences), yet we do not design for the cognitive differences. Perhaps that is because if you have qualified to the professional level, you must in some way be competent. (the training process will have chopped' those lacking the necessary skills).
Anyway, chill-pill has been taken!
Cheers
GQ
Humus Motor
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: A little place called Samsonite
Posts: 201
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
GQ, I don't think you need to design for these cognitive differences. Having been involved with training both genders since 1972, I haven't once felt the need to tailor the training for the gender - for the individual - yes. Now either I'm obtuse and not very perceptive, and so am not recognising the male/female differences .. or there is a vast range of abilities in all people. Whatever, I can modestly claim success most of the time! If someone doesn't want to fly with a woman, then they'll see an absolute host of good reasons caused by the 'differences' and I happen to think that that's garbage! Small, fatuous, empirical example: if I want to go anywhere I haven't been before (and more to the point, if I want to go back to somewhere I've only been once) then I'll trust the navigation to Lady Earthmover thank you very much - she has an absolutely fabulous sense of direction and only needs the map on the first visit. So much for the differences eh? Oh - and actually, I'm just as good at the multi-task bit.
As I said before, this is in my view a dead subject - women in the flight-deck are here to stay, and that's just fine by me and my colleagues. This is an issue that is just never discussed in my airline - it was settled years ago.
As I said before, this is in my view a dead subject - women in the flight-deck are here to stay, and that's just fine by me and my colleagues. This is an issue that is just never discussed in my airline - it was settled years ago.
PPRuNeaholic
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Cairns FNQ
Posts: 3,255
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with you Earthmover, possibly far more than I'll ever be able to convey in this post. I have taught many people to fly. Males and females. The fremales tended to ask the truly incisive questions that had me, on occasions, struggling for an answer. I learned a lot more about teaching from those experiences.
I have flown with females. They are, generally, more careful and more precise than males. I think that they've had to be, if only because of the "glass ceiling" thing. But I know there's more to it than that, as has already been stated in various posts.
I really wasn't going to get involved in this topic at all, until I read the bit about map reading skills. I have to say that that's hogwash. Teach a female the same way as a male - she'll ask some really searching, highly relevant questions and, if you can give her the (right) answer, she'll have it for life. But she'll keep questionning because she won't be sure that she has the "right" answer.
And now onto the map reading thing, specifically. I was in Singapore in 2003 for a Pans Ops course. By that stage, I'd been designing Pans Ops procedures for something like 20 years, without ever having done the formal course. Anyway, be that as it may, in my group there were several females who had been involved in procedure design and who had been sent to the Singapore Aviation College to learn the Pans Ops way of doing things. One of these females, from Korea, had been involved in TERPs procedures for several years already.
I can say, without hestitation, that all the females in the group - some who hadn't known much about map reading before the course, were all able to read and interpret topographic charts of various scales and, much more importantly, were able to form an even better "picture" of the terrain than I had - even after all my years of flying and procedure design. They came up with very innovative solutions to the design problems posed at various stages of the course and I really wanted to employ a couple of them!
So, any time that anyone wants to denigrate women in aviation, I will always take exception. Sure, there will be some bad ones - but I've found a LOT of really bad male pilots AND male procedure designers.
As one last point, in this country, we have male and female ATC and FS people talking to us on the radio. I can tell you that the females here have the best, clearest voices on the R/T, especially on HF - where it matters a whole lot more. I'm aware that, in some countries, male voices are clearer but, here, it's the other way around and that's important to me when I fly around the place.
On balance, I'd like to see MORE females in all aspects of aviation. We even have a female Inspector here and she really knows her stuff! If some blokes have trouble with females in aviation, I think they need to learn to live with them in the industry. They are here to stay and I think that's a good thing! Vive la difference, or however it's supposed to be pronounced, but I think you get the gist.
Editted for the spelling errors that I was able to detect after a few drinks!
I have flown with females. They are, generally, more careful and more precise than males. I think that they've had to be, if only because of the "glass ceiling" thing. But I know there's more to it than that, as has already been stated in various posts.
I really wasn't going to get involved in this topic at all, until I read the bit about map reading skills. I have to say that that's hogwash. Teach a female the same way as a male - she'll ask some really searching, highly relevant questions and, if you can give her the (right) answer, she'll have it for life. But she'll keep questionning because she won't be sure that she has the "right" answer.
And now onto the map reading thing, specifically. I was in Singapore in 2003 for a Pans Ops course. By that stage, I'd been designing Pans Ops procedures for something like 20 years, without ever having done the formal course. Anyway, be that as it may, in my group there were several females who had been involved in procedure design and who had been sent to the Singapore Aviation College to learn the Pans Ops way of doing things. One of these females, from Korea, had been involved in TERPs procedures for several years already.
I can say, without hestitation, that all the females in the group - some who hadn't known much about map reading before the course, were all able to read and interpret topographic charts of various scales and, much more importantly, were able to form an even better "picture" of the terrain than I had - even after all my years of flying and procedure design. They came up with very innovative solutions to the design problems posed at various stages of the course and I really wanted to employ a couple of them!
So, any time that anyone wants to denigrate women in aviation, I will always take exception. Sure, there will be some bad ones - but I've found a LOT of really bad male pilots AND male procedure designers.
As one last point, in this country, we have male and female ATC and FS people talking to us on the radio. I can tell you that the females here have the best, clearest voices on the R/T, especially on HF - where it matters a whole lot more. I'm aware that, in some countries, male voices are clearer but, here, it's the other way around and that's important to me when I fly around the place.
On balance, I'd like to see MORE females in all aspects of aviation. We even have a female Inspector here and she really knows her stuff! If some blokes have trouble with females in aviation, I think they need to learn to live with them in the industry. They are here to stay and I think that's a good thing! Vive la difference, or however it's supposed to be pronounced, but I think you get the gist.
Editted for the spelling errors that I was able to detect after a few drinks!
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: British Isles
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On a lighter note... why not have a look at the Article/Test metioned by CAT1 in an earlier post.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/featu...937913,00.html
seems to explain a lot of the differences of opinion voiced here!
Do the test GQ and tell us your score
Me? 42/47
http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/featu...937913,00.html
seems to explain a lot of the differences of opinion voiced here!
Do the test GQ and tell us your score
Me? 42/47
Last edited by arelix; 1st Jul 2005 at 17:04.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Over The Hills And Far Away
Posts: 676
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Scored 42/EQ and 53/SQ. So I am extremely male.........................or suffering from Asperger syndrome or High Functioning Autism.
Sounds fancy though. Maybe I should put it on my businesscard?
Sounds fancy though. Maybe I should put it on my businesscard?
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 275
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Same as radar 39/48 so I probably don't need to join bwpa
.. but to have the same score as an ATCer 
30 years ago I was an engineer (RAF) working with them and can't believe it
.. but to have the same score as an ATCer 30 years ago I was an engineer (RAF) working with them and can't believe it
Last edited by egbt; 1st Jul 2005 at 21:11.
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EQ 59
SQ 49
...hmmm... what does that mean? I'm a warm, cuddly, caring-sharing type person bordering on Asperger's Syndrome? Eek!
Cheers
Whirlygig
Just one point raised earlier:- in the UK it is illegal for an employer to ask whether a female candidate/employee plans to have children.
SQ 49
...hmmm... what does that mean? I'm a warm, cuddly, caring-sharing type person bordering on Asperger's Syndrome? Eek!
Cheers
Whirlygig
Just one point raised earlier:- in the UK it is illegal for an employer to ask whether a female candidate/employee plans to have children.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Canberra Australia
Posts: 1,300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Come in Test Pilots
Until the end of the last century aircraft cockpits/flight decks have been designed and assessed for operability by the evolved Standard Man with defined deviations.
Designers and TPs have responsibilities to ensure, for a new design, that the Standard Man is able to manipulate flight controls and flight deck equipment in accordance with HIS capabilities.
How does a Standard Woman make out in the flight deck produced for the Standard Man? You will all be able to come up with examples of Her short fall.
The currently evolving Standard Woman is already being defined in some detail. But are any curent TPs/regulations insisting on its adoption.? Does this mean a whole new series of V1s to Vxs specifically for the woman? Perhaps NASA has already addressed the problems.
Meanwhile we all run the risk of suffering from the result of the Standard Woman already flying not being able to manipulate the Standard Man's controls and equipment at the outer edges of Her physical, mental and other envelopes.
Until the end of the last century aircraft cockpits/flight decks have been designed and assessed for operability by the evolved Standard Man with defined deviations.
Designers and TPs have responsibilities to ensure, for a new design, that the Standard Man is able to manipulate flight controls and flight deck equipment in accordance with HIS capabilities.
How does a Standard Woman make out in the flight deck produced for the Standard Man? You will all be able to come up with examples of Her short fall.
The currently evolving Standard Woman is already being defined in some detail. But are any curent TPs/regulations insisting on its adoption.? Does this mean a whole new series of V1s to Vxs specifically for the woman? Perhaps NASA has already addressed the problems.
Meanwhile we all run the risk of suffering from the result of the Standard Woman already flying not being able to manipulate the Standard Man's controls and equipment at the outer edges of Her physical, mental and other envelopes.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Zanzi's Bar
Age: 59
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
just facts
We have 4 women that is exactly 2% of the work force.
I agree with the general sit that gals have to do much better to establish demselves in a Macho environment, but...
1. One never gets ready for the cockpit prep more than 10 min befor sched. As a result on every single flight I did wit her in d last 18 months we were late and I had to cover for her... (stupid of me - diff treatment, eh). She normally does excellent in the sim - so good at checklists and proc - but rarely stays ahead of whats goin on in real life...
2. The other one (in her late 40') once left the cockpit about 5 times in 20 min during preflight (cystitis or what) - which has never happened with a guy in my 21 yrs of flyin.
3. I think ICAO published a doc in the late 70' in which rightfully specialists pointed out some deficiencies of female pilots based not on difference of brains and way of thinking but on physiological diff
EQ44 SQ40 Type S
I agree with the general sit that gals have to do much better to establish demselves in a Macho environment, but...
1. One never gets ready for the cockpit prep more than 10 min befor sched. As a result on every single flight I did wit her in d last 18 months we were late and I had to cover for her... (stupid of me - diff treatment, eh). She normally does excellent in the sim - so good at checklists and proc - but rarely stays ahead of whats goin on in real life...
2. The other one (in her late 40') once left the cockpit about 5 times in 20 min during preflight (cystitis or what) - which has never happened with a guy in my 21 yrs of flyin.
3. I think ICAO published a doc in the late 70' in which rightfully specialists pointed out some deficiencies of female pilots based not on difference of brains and way of thinking but on physiological diff
EQ44 SQ40 Type S
Last edited by swish266; 3rd Jul 2005 at 05:48.