LOW COST and LOW SAFETY?

[nebulous]

LOW COST and LOW SAFETY?

Why do some cabin crew on some low cost carriers commence or continue to collect rubbish, papers and in flight magazines throughout the cabin during periods of light and moderate turbulence?

Scene:
1. The captain/cockpit crew turn on or cycle the seat belt sign and make an announcement about the turbulence being encountered.

2. The purser/cabin crew follow up the announcement with their own announcement about turbulence, seat belt sign, pax returning to seats and fastening seat belts etc etc.

3. The turbulence continues or even increases, and then an announcement is made that cabin crew will be coming through the cabin to collect rubbish, papers, in flight magazines to "assist in the quick turnaround of the aircraft at the destination".

4. Cabin crew proceed through the cabin with their rubbish bags collecting rubbish and in flight magazines. This is carried out while gripping onto ailse seats and arm rests as well as supporting themselves with the overhead compartments, so as to avoid becoming injured themselves or injuring and endangering the pax.

Why?
Since when has collecting rubbish, papers, inflight magazines which are all able to be secured in seat pockets, become a safety function? Why should the desire for a quick turnaround at destination, even if running late, result in blatantly unsafe and dangerous behaviour?

Are cabin crew directed to endanger themselves and the passengers in this fashion by the cockpit crew and/or airline management?

Are Ryanair and EasyJet alone in this cavalier attitude to safety?

Why does low cost have to equate to low safety?

[hadagutful]

LOW COST/LOW SAFETY, NO CORRELATION

I'll come in here from Downunder,

Firstly, to respond to your assertion, "low cost" does not have to equate to low safety. Unless of course there is no compliance to the Regulations and legal framework.

Are you asking why do cabin crew move about the cabin during potential turbulence ONLY on more cost efficient 'no thrills' carriers?
You'd probably have to ask them to get a straight answer but maybe it happens on other airlines as well.

Are cabin crew, or even pax for that matter, absolutely required to remain seated with belts fastened while the seat belt sign is on during cruise at altitude with potential turbulence?
It is a safety requirement but I'm sure it is not 'policed' as such and individuals can still normally go to the bathroom if they really have to.

As for crew continuing to collect rubbish etc. during turbulence, I suspect that they are simply used to doing it and are trying to finish a certain workload to take some pressure off the turnaround.

Anyway, who is going to 'police' them?

[Whoooooop Whoooooop]

I've experienced the "impending turbulence routine " many times on FR.

They often use it to sit everyone down to speed up the cabin service clean up, even if there's no sign of chop whatsoever.

Once saw a Captain appear from the Flight deck to be confronted by a queue at the forward toilets.

He disappeared back into the Cockpit, turned on the Fasten Seat Belt Signs & made an interphone call to the Senior Cabin Crew Member who instantly informed the passengers that the Captain was expecting heavy Turbulence and that everyone should return to their seat immediately.

Within about a minute the queue for the loos had gone, followed swiftly by those occupying the toilets.

The Captain then re-appeared at the front Galley, spoke to the Crew for a few seconds & popped in to the then Vacant Loo on his way back to the Cockpit.

Minutes after his return, the Seatbelt signs were once again extinguished.

And of the Turbulence - none experienced !

Great trick if you have the button.

[rubik101]

So the Captain should queue? He might just have politely asked the head of the queue to let him in first if it was me, however.
Low cost does not mean low saftey. The low cost carriers comply with exactly the same rules and regulations as all otherUK airlines. They could not operate if they didn't. Simple as that. easyjet, bmiBaby etc. Ops Mauals are exactly the same as BA's or Monarch's give or take a few company differences, otherwise the substance will be almost identical.

[Spitoon]

Firstly, to respond to your assertion, "low cost" does not have to equate to low safety. Unless of course there is no compliance to the Regulations and legal framework.

Interesting comment. Does compliance with the regulations and law make the operation safe?

In these days of safety management systems the regulator's line seems to be that the rules will give basic safety but that an SMS is what assures a safe operation regardless of the situation. Admittedly I work in ATC so maybe I'm comparing apples and oranges but that what the ATC inspectors (and Europe) are telling us.

But is someone living in a dream world? Does anyone actually use a SMS? Or do we all write huge manuals - to keep the regulator happy - that then gather dust on a shelf somewhere whilst our respective inspectors come along and do what they've always done?

[rubik101]

If by SMS, Spitoon, you mean a Safety Monitoring System then I can assure you that the SMS used and operated very effectively by easyjet is exactly that which is used by BA. Every flight is monitored by the same FLIDRAS as used by many of the supposedly 'safer' airlines.

Why people who eveidently know little of the way airlines are run and operated insist on bringing up this 'low cost-low safety' chestnut need to be shown the light. I suspect that, as usual, they don't really want to know! They would rather keep poking away at what they hope will become a running sore.

[Flying Torquewrench]

LOW COSt and LOW SAFETY is rubbish.

In my airline (not LOCO) the cabin crew also moves about the cabin during the times that the fasten seatbelt sign is switched on. When we switch on the seatbelt sign we inform the cabin crew if it is safe for them to continue their service or that they need to stow their trolleys and take their seats.

When the seatbelt sign is switched on no pax is allowed to go to toilet. This is partly to blame on the sueing culture we have at the moment. If pax get injured during turbulence and the seatbelt sign is not switched on they can sue the company. If however a pax gets out of his/her seat after the seatbelt sign is switched on and a PA is made than it is his/her responsibility. Again if the cabin crew notices that somebody gets up they will strongly advise the person to go back to his/her seat and fasten their seatbelt.

FT

[TheOddOne]

The so-called 'loco' market segment is now sufficiently mature for there to be meaningful accident/incident/injur statistics available to make comparisons. This, after all, is the proof of the pudding as to whether or not a Safety Management System works, or not.

I haven't seen ANY stats about injuries aboard easyJet flights, for instance. Has anyone else?

Cheers,

The Odd One

[HZ123]

Surely the majority of the LOCO fleets are newer a/c than the major outfits. I am quite sure that the CC are more than capable of making a balanced decision as to whether it is safe to collect cabin debris.

[Spitoon]

rubik101, by SMS I meant a Safety Management System. All described in CAP 712.

I guess I assumed that everyone involved would know what an SMS is, sorry.

[EasyBaby]

Oh sure low cost means low cost maintenence yawn! Yea thats a good business plan, have crash bad reliability etc, that will win us a few more routes erm i dont think!

Normally when there is turbulence the only change to normal service, is the carts might be taken in, and no hot drinks are served. If it gets bad, then the Capt will either make a PA for CC to take seats or will interphone the crew to let them know.

But generally in light turbulence the crew continue with their duties as normal, as its a daily occurance, and for the saftey of the quite often mindless pax safer for them to be in their seats, as they are often not used to walking in a moving cabin. (and the fact they'll sue for chipping a nail these days )

Many times we have been asked to take our seats and nothing has happened. After asking the F/D why they respond that a/c ahead of them are experiencing bad turbulence. So often by the time we arrive to the scene its gone. Always better to be safe than sorry.

But personally the crew are quite adapt at walking/judging turbulence. There is no danger ill be in the cabin taking in flaming magazines if i thought it was bad! At least with easyjet they might knock you with an gash bag, but others use gash carts! Mind you it does give us the excuse of dropping in on people we like..........

...... or for that matter clobbering the ones we dont!!!



EB

[matblack]

Only a few months ago I was very wary of Ryanair as I'd always associated them with very old high cycle aircraft. Having used them frequently over the past few months (maybe 6 times per month) I have to say I can't fault them. The quick turnaround is highly appreciated as a PAX as I haven't been late yet. The aircraft have all been 800's or 400's so no worries there. It's very common for the cabin crew on all airlines to move around whilst the seatbelt light is on during light turbulence. Cabin crew are obviously trained to move through the cabin during reasonable levels of turbulence and they rely on the pilots to alert them if it becomes unsafe for them. That's why all airlines give a quick ding ding moments after takeoff for the cabin crew to commence their in flight preps when the usual buffeting is still taking place through the clouds on climbout. Would a lo-cost airline cut corners on safety ? Only if they want to go out of business. Look what happened to Valujet's reputation in the USA.

[Bengerman]

There seems to be a few misconceptions out there about turbulence/ cleaning cabin /LoCo airlines.

First, the turbulence encountered will not know if you are a full service carrier or LoCo.. You can still get bounced all over the place.

matblack - Cabin crew are NOT trained to move around the cabin during periods of turbulence. This is a matter of common sense, if there is a safety need for the crew to be on their feet then they should be, the primary reason for them being there is the safety of passengers. If there is no safety need then they should be sat down.

Easybaby - Cabin Crew may be well able to judge if they are able to stand up/move about in the turbulence they have just passed through but they cannot judge if it is safe to move around during the turbulence they are about to encounter. No one is! The seat belt sign is YOUR clue that things are going to get lumpy, check the pax and SIT DOWN!

If I were pax on an aircraft, seat belt signs on and some crew member swatted me in the ear because he was cleaning up the cabin I would sue the arse off the airline. The only reason he would be cleaning up is commercial ie. to speed up the turnround. It is SAFETY that is paramount not the commercial requirements of the airline!

[Captain Stable]

I think there may be a misconception here.

When there is turbulence suspected, the signs go on and, generally, a PA announcement is made from the flight deck. The cabin crew then need to ensure the cabin is secure before taking their seats. While they are doing this, pax should be seated with their seat belts fastened, unless they are on the way back from the toilets where the "ding" and the sign found them.

Next point is that, after takeoff, the passengers should remain seated until the sign has been switched off. However, as early as the flight crew think prudent, the cabin crew can be released to get started on the service.

Similarly, on descent and approach (specific altitude/time to go depending on company procedures), the sign will go on to seat the pax, but the cabin crew will secure the cabin (see above), finish clearing in if people are particularly slow about finishing their drinks etc. This may well need a gash trolley in the aisles. Not a problem.

To return to turbulence:- I can foresee several levels of turbulence, however.

At one level you want everyone sat down & strapped in immediately. Demonstrates an appalling lack of foresight, but can happen.

Next level, you want all the pax strapped in and the cabin to be secured. The cabin crew will still need to go around the cabin, and then report "cabin secure".

Next, ditto pax strapped in, but you can continue service, minus perhaps hot drinks.

Lowest level, no worries about the pax unstrapping and fulfilling calls of nature etc.

Therefore, no matter the nature of the airline (LoCo or mainline, charter or schedule), it is perfectly feasible, and in many cases desirable, for the cabin crew to be permitted to be on their feet while the sign is on.

Hope this helps.

[jumpseater]

I suspect a troll....

'which are all able to be secured in seat pockets'

Not flown with RYR very frequently then have we?.....

[Onan the Clumsy]

It IS for safety though.

They want to get all the loose newspapers picked up before they light the paraffin heaters.