Window shut ? - Flight check list
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Window shut ? - Flight check list
Is "check your window is latched" part of the check list before take off ?
I was on a First Choice flight (DP4713) yesterday (27/2/05) out of Grenoble to LGW.
After lift off we climbed with a good feeling of thrust for a few seconds before feeling (and hearing) the engines close right down and levelled out when only maybe 1000 feet up (it looked)
This was then followed by a couple more seconds of lift then again, engines idled back and as you can image with the air temps there there were some horrible feelings as we dropped here and there.
This went on maybe five or six times and it felt like when you're car engine is getting no fuel and goes and then stops ! (I know aircraft engines are different)
The pilot (or co) then came on in a panicked voice, "Senior cabin crew member to the flight deck immediately" then a few seconds later the same message still in panic.
I tell you, I have done a few flights and I seriously thought that was my last, we had harldy any height and the pilot sounded in trouble.
The senior cabin crew man was also shaking as he talked on the intercom.
Turns out their window flew open just prior to lift off which they were then fighting to close.
We returned to the airfield for an un-eventfull landing and I got a train home to the UK.
Is this "just one of those things" or is someones head going to roll ?
I was on a First Choice flight (DP4713) yesterday (27/2/05) out of Grenoble to LGW.
After lift off we climbed with a good feeling of thrust for a few seconds before feeling (and hearing) the engines close right down and levelled out when only maybe 1000 feet up (it looked)
This was then followed by a couple more seconds of lift then again, engines idled back and as you can image with the air temps there there were some horrible feelings as we dropped here and there.
This went on maybe five or six times and it felt like when you're car engine is getting no fuel and goes and then stops ! (I know aircraft engines are different)
The pilot (or co) then came on in a panicked voice, "Senior cabin crew member to the flight deck immediately" then a few seconds later the same message still in panic.
I tell you, I have done a few flights and I seriously thought that was my last, we had harldy any height and the pilot sounded in trouble.
The senior cabin crew man was also shaking as he talked on the intercom.
Turns out their window flew open just prior to lift off which they were then fighting to close.
We returned to the airfield for an un-eventfull landing and I got a train home to the UK.
Is this "just one of those things" or is someones head going to roll ?
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The crew will almost certainly be filing an Air Safety Report (I don't think, unless they've had other similar incidents it will be mandatory to send it to the CAA) and there will be an internal inquiry.
The aircraft will be inspected to check whether or not the latching mechanism is faulty and they'll probably (but not certainly) pull the QAR (Quick Access Recorder) to check the CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder).
If the crew is at fault in failing properly to check, then there will probably be an interview with hats on in the Fleet Manager's office.
Heads very unlikely to roll.
The aircraft will be inspected to check whether or not the latching mechanism is faulty and they'll probably (but not certainly) pull the QAR (Quick Access Recorder) to check the CVR (Cockpit Voice Recorder).
If the crew is at fault in failing properly to check, then there will probably be an interview with hats on in the Fleet Manager's office.
Heads very unlikely to roll.
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Extremely noisy, the cockpit got the best vacuum cleaning of it's life, but at the low altitude situation you describe, hardly a compromise to safety. Some aircraft smoke evacuation procedures actually prescribe the DELIBERATE opening of a cockpit window.
Undoubtedly a "stuff up", but the quavering Tech Crew / Cabin Crew voices I think amount to a severe over reaction.
The fact that an uneventful landing ensued is hardly surprising.
Old Smokey
Undoubtedly a "stuff up", but the quavering Tech Crew / Cabin Crew voices I think amount to a severe over reaction.
The fact that an uneventful landing ensued is hardly surprising.
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I remember a very similar thing happening on a Nimrod many years ago. Just rotated and the port sliding window blew open!
Took the co all his strength using his feet!! to push it back closed, while the Eng latched it shut. (cost him lots of beers in thew bar as I recall)
Hate to pre judge things but.. it sounds like a 'hats on' bo££ocking to me!
Kind regards
TSM
Took the co all his strength using his feet!! to push it back closed, while the Eng latched it shut. (cost him lots of beers in thew bar as I recall)
Hate to pre judge things but.. it sounds like a 'hats on' bo££ocking to me!
Kind regards
TSM
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It's in the before start checks on 737 also.
But it happened once or twice ,not properly latched,it wasn't hard to close,I've been told.
The window shouldn't have opened,cause the plane is slightly pressurized before take off,but it did open during takeoff roll.
The aerodinamic of the 737 fuselage creates an area of 'calm' air on the side window area ,and the window can be closed,and even opened during smoke removal emergency,with a lot of resulting cockpit noice though.
But it happened once or twice ,not properly latched,it wasn't hard to close,I've been told.
The window shouldn't have opened,cause the plane is slightly pressurized before take off,but it did open during takeoff roll.
The aerodinamic of the 737 fuselage creates an area of 'calm' air on the side window area ,and the window can be closed,and even opened during smoke removal emergency,with a lot of resulting cockpit noice though.
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It was a 757.
http://www.firstchoice.co.uk/info/ab...ghtsfleet.html
I was hoping the company might have rung to see if we got home OK but no - nothing.
Spoke to some people who remained on the flight and said you could cut the tension with a knife, no complimentary drinks, had to wait for an hour to get off at LGW for some reason, not happy PAX.
Wife now starting to laugh about it which is a good sign I suppose although the memory of "is this thing going to get back" and "why is the flight desk asking for help ?" still fresh in our minds !
http://www.firstchoice.co.uk/info/ab...ghtsfleet.html
I was hoping the company might have rung to see if we got home OK but no - nothing.
Spoke to some people who remained on the flight and said you could cut the tension with a knife, no complimentary drinks, had to wait for an hour to get off at LGW for some reason, not happy PAX.
Wife now starting to laugh about it which is a good sign I suppose although the memory of "is this thing going to get back" and "why is the flight desk asking for help ?" still fresh in our minds !
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J1230s
I cannot make any comment on this specific incident, as I know nothing about it. However I would like to address your concerns by providing some factual information and will try and attempt to put yours and your wifes minds at rest.
When ever an event happens on an aircraft be it serious or minor, it is important for the crew to be aware that there are passengers sat in the cabin who need to be kept in the communication loop. How and when information is communicated will depend on time being available to carry out the task. As you will appreciate the flight deck crew must make as their primary task the flying of the aircraft. They must deal with any problems that arise and once addressed they need to communicate with each other generally, and then with air traffic control. The Captain will then communicate with the Cabin crew, usually through the senior Cabin crew member. Having prioritized in this manner the Captain will normally speak to the passengers and let them know what is happening. Obviously the Captain should give a reassuring and easily understood explanation of events, together with a brief summary of the next course of action and when any further information will be forthcoming. Cabin crew will normally have been briefed, and should be able to answer any general questions that passengers may have.
Having said this, it may take some considerable time for the primary situation to be properly resolved, and since time may not always allow all of these procedures to be accomplished, it follows that not of all of the niceties can be carried out if a situation dictates otherwise.
On the B757 the pilots have a forward window in front of each of them. At the side of each of them are two side windows. The most forward of these side windows are able to be opened by the use of a locking lever and a crank handle which is subsequently used for rolling the window backwards or forwards. When the window is closed and locked there is a red painted line on the window locking arm that should be aligned with the window frame. In fact it is not a perfect system and you have to wonder why the manufacturer didn't incorporate an electronic warning that displays on the pilots instrument screen ( EICAS) as they indeed provide for all the passenger doors. In any event they don't and part of the pilots ordinary scanning checks are to make sure the windows are closed and properly locked. It often happens that prior to engine start up the window may need to be opened to check something visually, or even to shout at people on the ground, and it is incumbent on the pilot to ensure the window is properly closed and locked again. However it can sometimes ( albeit rarely) happen that the window is closed but not properly locked. If this happens then left unchecked what will happen is you get to a certain speed on the take off roll and Surprise the window blows back (open). Because it is a side window there is not a great deal ( but some) aerodynamic pressure on the forward part of the window itself. If the speed is low enough the take off would be discontinued. However, though alarming, it is not in itself an especially serious event and at higher speeds the proper course of action would be to get airborne and close it quickly, but nevertheless as time allows. It is a fairly simple procedure to close, you simply crank the window lever forwards to close the window, and then rotate the locking lever forward ( as you should of done in the first place ) ! The aircraft will then pressurise and the flight would normally continue. Of course if the window had failed to lock due to some mechanical deficiency then the proper course of action would be to divert or return to to the departure airfield. In any event the course of action is ultimately down to the Commander.
In any situation where the flight deck crew need to communicate with the Cabin crew because of an unusual event they would make a call over the PA system in the manner you describe. I appreciate that this may have sounded "panicky", but in actual fact it is the use of only one defined sentence. There may be a sense of imperative or urgency in the delivery but that should not be confused with panic. The latter being very unlikely. Although you don't say, it sounds as though you were told the reason for the situation and I am presuming this was by the Captain by way of an address either in flight or on the ground. You should understand that the Captain needs to call the senior crew member to the flight deck not necessarily to "help" them directly, although this might be the case, but also to tell them what is happening, what they are then going to do, how long it will take to sort the problem out or return to an airport, and any special items the Captain wants carried out or imparting to the other crewmembers and or passengers.
I can understand how frightening this might have seemed and indeed been for your wife and yourself. It is all very well for us as crew to know what is happening, and what we are doing about it. For the pasengers as spectators to such an event, it can seem a long and frustrating time, not knowing what is happening or the degree of seriousness. Unfortunetaly and even with the best of intentions this is not always easy to overcome for the reasons I have already stated.
In my experience, passengers who are kept informed are usually reasonably relaxed even in difficult or frustrating situations. As crew we need to be aware and vigilant of that. Of course we also need to properly prioritize our actions and sometimes the relevant communication suffers as a result.
In your case the aircraft returned to the airfield for an uneventful landing, as indeed I would expect. It is a shame you didn't decide to continue the flight back to the UK, although I do appreciate your concerns. I would have thought the explanation given would have addressed your concerns but of course in this case it didn't. You say you spoke with others who came home on the flight so I suppose the explanation met with a greater degree of acceptance ? Complimentary drinks might have been welcome
but they are a commercial decision for either the company or the commander based on various criteria. Those criteria vary from company to company and provision may be difficult or inappropriate for whatever reason.
The company would not normally contact you in the situation where you had effectively decided to break your contract with them. I understand your point of view, but having decided to take the train home, the company no longer had any responsibilty for your travel arrangements. If you write to them with your concerns, I am sure they will respond. I don't think there is any relevance to the flight waiting an hour to disembark the passengers when it ultimetaly arrived at its destination. I waited 45 minutes to disembark last week, because the ground handling company didn't have enough staff and or equipment to deal with multiple arrivals at the same time. Of course, it is sods law that when you really dont want to cause any more inconvenience to your customers, life decides to bite you in the ass ! some days you just can't win !
As has already been said, an Air safety report would have been filed for this event, whatever the cause. If it was a technical deficiency it would be addressed. If it was the sort of human failing that we are all occaisionally prone to, then the person concerned would have subjected themselves to an admonishment more than ever could be imposed. In addition they would be required to provide an explanation to their management which would also compound their discomfort. It would be very unlikely or appropriate to go beyond this.
I am glad you and your wife are getting over the fright of this event. It is not something to be taken lightly and it is good to remind us as professionals of the importance of effective communication. I am not for one minute suggesting this was not carried out on your flight, but it raises a general point of interest. I hope this response will also help to set your mind at ease from the safety aspect if not the annoyance factor. Sometimes these things happen for whatever reason, and a better understanding of the factors is only something that might happen at a later date.
I cannot make any comment on this specific incident, as I know nothing about it. However I would like to address your concerns by providing some factual information and will try and attempt to put yours and your wifes minds at rest.
When ever an event happens on an aircraft be it serious or minor, it is important for the crew to be aware that there are passengers sat in the cabin who need to be kept in the communication loop. How and when information is communicated will depend on time being available to carry out the task. As you will appreciate the flight deck crew must make as their primary task the flying of the aircraft. They must deal with any problems that arise and once addressed they need to communicate with each other generally, and then with air traffic control. The Captain will then communicate with the Cabin crew, usually through the senior Cabin crew member. Having prioritized in this manner the Captain will normally speak to the passengers and let them know what is happening. Obviously the Captain should give a reassuring and easily understood explanation of events, together with a brief summary of the next course of action and when any further information will be forthcoming. Cabin crew will normally have been briefed, and should be able to answer any general questions that passengers may have.
Having said this, it may take some considerable time for the primary situation to be properly resolved, and since time may not always allow all of these procedures to be accomplished, it follows that not of all of the niceties can be carried out if a situation dictates otherwise.
On the B757 the pilots have a forward window in front of each of them. At the side of each of them are two side windows. The most forward of these side windows are able to be opened by the use of a locking lever and a crank handle which is subsequently used for rolling the window backwards or forwards. When the window is closed and locked there is a red painted line on the window locking arm that should be aligned with the window frame. In fact it is not a perfect system and you have to wonder why the manufacturer didn't incorporate an electronic warning that displays on the pilots instrument screen ( EICAS) as they indeed provide for all the passenger doors. In any event they don't and part of the pilots ordinary scanning checks are to make sure the windows are closed and properly locked. It often happens that prior to engine start up the window may need to be opened to check something visually, or even to shout at people on the ground, and it is incumbent on the pilot to ensure the window is properly closed and locked again. However it can sometimes ( albeit rarely) happen that the window is closed but not properly locked. If this happens then left unchecked what will happen is you get to a certain speed on the take off roll and Surprise the window blows back (open). Because it is a side window there is not a great deal ( but some) aerodynamic pressure on the forward part of the window itself. If the speed is low enough the take off would be discontinued. However, though alarming, it is not in itself an especially serious event and at higher speeds the proper course of action would be to get airborne and close it quickly, but nevertheless as time allows. It is a fairly simple procedure to close, you simply crank the window lever forwards to close the window, and then rotate the locking lever forward ( as you should of done in the first place ) ! The aircraft will then pressurise and the flight would normally continue. Of course if the window had failed to lock due to some mechanical deficiency then the proper course of action would be to divert or return to to the departure airfield. In any event the course of action is ultimately down to the Commander.
In any situation where the flight deck crew need to communicate with the Cabin crew because of an unusual event they would make a call over the PA system in the manner you describe. I appreciate that this may have sounded "panicky", but in actual fact it is the use of only one defined sentence. There may be a sense of imperative or urgency in the delivery but that should not be confused with panic. The latter being very unlikely. Although you don't say, it sounds as though you were told the reason for the situation and I am presuming this was by the Captain by way of an address either in flight or on the ground. You should understand that the Captain needs to call the senior crew member to the flight deck not necessarily to "help" them directly, although this might be the case, but also to tell them what is happening, what they are then going to do, how long it will take to sort the problem out or return to an airport, and any special items the Captain wants carried out or imparting to the other crewmembers and or passengers.
I can understand how frightening this might have seemed and indeed been for your wife and yourself. It is all very well for us as crew to know what is happening, and what we are doing about it. For the pasengers as spectators to such an event, it can seem a long and frustrating time, not knowing what is happening or the degree of seriousness. Unfortunetaly and even with the best of intentions this is not always easy to overcome for the reasons I have already stated.
In my experience, passengers who are kept informed are usually reasonably relaxed even in difficult or frustrating situations. As crew we need to be aware and vigilant of that. Of course we also need to properly prioritize our actions and sometimes the relevant communication suffers as a result.
In your case the aircraft returned to the airfield for an uneventful landing, as indeed I would expect. It is a shame you didn't decide to continue the flight back to the UK, although I do appreciate your concerns. I would have thought the explanation given would have addressed your concerns but of course in this case it didn't. You say you spoke with others who came home on the flight so I suppose the explanation met with a greater degree of acceptance ? Complimentary drinks might have been welcome
but they are a commercial decision for either the company or the commander based on various criteria. Those criteria vary from company to company and provision may be difficult or inappropriate for whatever reason.
The company would not normally contact you in the situation where you had effectively decided to break your contract with them. I understand your point of view, but having decided to take the train home, the company no longer had any responsibilty for your travel arrangements. If you write to them with your concerns, I am sure they will respond. I don't think there is any relevance to the flight waiting an hour to disembark the passengers when it ultimetaly arrived at its destination. I waited 45 minutes to disembark last week, because the ground handling company didn't have enough staff and or equipment to deal with multiple arrivals at the same time. Of course, it is sods law that when you really dont want to cause any more inconvenience to your customers, life decides to bite you in the ass ! some days you just can't win !
As has already been said, an Air safety report would have been filed for this event, whatever the cause. If it was a technical deficiency it would be addressed. If it was the sort of human failing that we are all occaisionally prone to, then the person concerned would have subjected themselves to an admonishment more than ever could be imposed. In addition they would be required to provide an explanation to their management which would also compound their discomfort. It would be very unlikely or appropriate to go beyond this.
I am glad you and your wife are getting over the fright of this event. It is not something to be taken lightly and it is good to remind us as professionals of the importance of effective communication. I am not for one minute suggesting this was not carried out on your flight, but it raises a general point of interest. I hope this response will also help to set your mind at ease from the safety aspect if not the annoyance factor. Sometimes these things happen for whatever reason, and a better understanding of the factors is only something that might happen at a later date.
Last edited by Bealzebub; 1st Mar 2005 at 19:44.
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Thank you for taking the time to post such a comprehensive reply and explaining some of the procedures. - It really is well received and appreciated. :-)
For the sake of accuracy (and perhaps to add some history if nothing more than interest) ....
Once we were lined up for the landing (perhaps a minute after the call for the senior cabin crew member) we were told there was a problem with a door and that we were heading back to the airport - then, I think on the ground, the full situation about the window - all of which done very calmly and re-assuring and no doubt done in the correct order once things were prioritised.
The decision not to continue was not based on the condition of the aircraft, nor on my wife’s lack of faith ect.
What I did not mention (as I did not want to distract from my initial question) - was that in the first instance my wife has never enjoyed flying but has accepted that in order to go and do the things she wants to then she needs to address that fear, she used to have a few drinks before flying, something I tried to discourage as I never saw it as addressing the actual fear, more masking it.
A few years ago my mother died on shortly after take off in a private plane (art horizon failure) so we had been through the subsequent investigation so we aware that take off and landing were “critical” times to get things right.
I honestly believed that it would not be fair on the other passengers to have taken off again with my wife so upset and also not fair for her to have to suffer that stress – not at that time.
A train journey home with no “waiting for something to happen” seemed the best option for that night, we were offered another carriers flight later that day but were happy (and remain so) to say “no thanks, I have a credit card, passport and a driving licence, I have had enough of flying for the moment thanks”
She has admitted that this will not stop her flying in the future but it will just take a while to get her confidence back, and maybe a couple of G & T’s before the next couple of flights !
Thanks again for all the replies, this really is a most helpful group and what the www is all about
For the sake of accuracy (and perhaps to add some history if nothing more than interest) ....
Once we were lined up for the landing (perhaps a minute after the call for the senior cabin crew member) we were told there was a problem with a door and that we were heading back to the airport - then, I think on the ground, the full situation about the window - all of which done very calmly and re-assuring and no doubt done in the correct order once things were prioritised.
The decision not to continue was not based on the condition of the aircraft, nor on my wife’s lack of faith ect.
What I did not mention (as I did not want to distract from my initial question) - was that in the first instance my wife has never enjoyed flying but has accepted that in order to go and do the things she wants to then she needs to address that fear, she used to have a few drinks before flying, something I tried to discourage as I never saw it as addressing the actual fear, more masking it.
A few years ago my mother died on shortly after take off in a private plane (art horizon failure) so we had been through the subsequent investigation so we aware that take off and landing were “critical” times to get things right.
I honestly believed that it would not be fair on the other passengers to have taken off again with my wife so upset and also not fair for her to have to suffer that stress – not at that time.
A train journey home with no “waiting for something to happen” seemed the best option for that night, we were offered another carriers flight later that day but were happy (and remain so) to say “no thanks, I have a credit card, passport and a driving licence, I have had enough of flying for the moment thanks”
She has admitted that this will not stop her flying in the future but it will just take a while to get her confidence back, and maybe a couple of G & T’s before the next couple of flights !
Thanks again for all the replies, this really is a most helpful group and what the www is all about
Last edited by j1230s; 1st Mar 2005 at 23:12.
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Thank you from an SLF
Beazlebub, although I am not in any way connected with this incident, your timely and sensitive responce to another SLF's query gives me great faith in the aviation industries best asset, the intelligent operator. Thank you from a professional Self Loader, and fly safe
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Beazlebub,
What an outstanding, sensible and caring reply fromr you old bean. Credit to you for allaying this chaps (and hopefully his dear Wifes) fears. I commend you and I'de gladly fly with you anytime!
Kind regards
TSM
What an outstanding, sensible and caring reply fromr you old bean. Credit to you for allaying this chaps (and hopefully his dear Wifes) fears. I commend you and I'de gladly fly with you anytime!
Kind regards
TSM
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At my airline we do not have the flight deck window on our check-list. Something I believe needs to change.
I was flying with an F/O the other day who kept openning the sodding window at chocks on. I had no idea what he was doing (just letting in the noise as far as I knew). Just another showoff I guess!!!
I was flying with an F/O the other day who kept openning the sodding window at chocks on. I had no idea what he was doing (just letting in the noise as far as I knew). Just another showoff I guess!!!
