Factorised (!) Hours for Augmented Crews
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Factorised (!) Hours for Augmented Crews
On an augmented three pilot flight, my airline reckons one flying hour actually only counts for three quarters of an hour. On a four pilot flight, my airline reckons one flying hour only counts for two thirds of an hour. The logic being, my company can squeeze more flying hours per month out of each of us flying augmented ops. What does your company do in terms of recording augmented flying hours?
Commercially expedient and flight time limitation efficient!! You work it out - a 100 monthly flying hour limit now becomes somewhat more.
God help us and all those who fly with us................
PS: my company?? ...... long haul wide body operator with 70+ aircraft.
Commercially expedient and flight time limitation efficient!! You work it out - a 100 monthly flying hour limit now becomes somewhat more.
God help us and all those who fly with us................
PS: my company?? ...... long haul wide body operator with 70+ aircraft.
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Carnage Matey; and how right you are I'm sure.
The irony is the airline I work for and refer to in my opening post here is flying daily in UK airspace in and out of Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester, Glasgow and Birmingham, carrying many Brit passport holders (amongst others). The dear old UK CAA takes no interest in this company's pilots logging well over 100 flying hours a month because, because, because........... the aircraft are not on the G reg! Where's the logic?
The irony is the airline I work for and refer to in my opening post here is flying daily in UK airspace in and out of Heathrow, Gatwick, Manchester, Glasgow and Birmingham, carrying many Brit passport holders (amongst others). The dear old UK CAA takes no interest in this company's pilots logging well over 100 flying hours a month because, because, because........... the aircraft are not on the G reg! Where's the logic?
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Correct, soon to be double decker bus operator, if only we could find enough suitable bus stops! By then the number of augmenting crew on that beast and we'll be doing 200 flying hours a month, suitably factorised of course!
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CHIRP
Even though you are not on the UK register you can still write, (with all relevant FACTS quoted!), to Chirp and they will take an interest. The country you are talking about has close ties with the UK and if that country chooses to indulge in something not considered safe it will be brought to their attention.
Even though you are not on the UK register you can still write, (with all relevant FACTS quoted!), to Chirp and they will take an interest. The country you are talking about has close ties with the UK and if that country chooses to indulge in something not considered safe it will be brought to their attention.
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With Lufthansa no such thing. One hour is one hour..
Wouldn´t be surprised if somebody in management would soon come up with this idea though
You have three guys to enable such a long flight. That means you have to pay three guys in order to have a safe operation even after 14 hours!
Wouldn´t be surprised if somebody in management would soon come up with this idea though
You have three guys to enable such a long flight. That means you have to pay three guys in order to have a safe operation even after 14 hours!
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Excuse my ignorance, but presumably the point being that on a 3- or 4- crew flight, the FTL can be extended by a quarter to a third?
And I assume you're somewhere a little East of Saudi Arabia?
And I assume you're somewhere a little East of Saudi Arabia?
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Maybe a misunderstanding as I am not a native english speaker (and listener..).
He asked for the procedures of other companies, well I answered it, in my company no negative factors on recorded Fl.Time..
What has my homebase to do with it??
He asked for the procedures of other companies, well I answered it, in my company no negative factors on recorded Fl.Time..
What has my homebase to do with it??
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Relax Charly, I think Phoenix Son was responding to the original post on this thread, not yours.
To clarify matters regarding this issue, the company has adopted this policy of reassessing the way flying hours are logged to allow extra hours per month and/or per year before hitting the limit. Previously 100 flying hours was the monthly limit - now with a four man crew factorising their hours by two thirds 150 hours becomes the new limit. For sure not every sector operates with an augmented crew, but many of us are all ready flying in excess of 100 hours per month. Even with on board rest this becomes very tiring, especially over an accumulation of months. All this from an airline that recently adopted CAP371 (in part!). You get the picture........
The extension to FDP on an augmented flight is handled slightly differently.
And yes, somewhere northeast of Saudi is the homebase......
To clarify matters regarding this issue, the company has adopted this policy of reassessing the way flying hours are logged to allow extra hours per month and/or per year before hitting the limit. Previously 100 flying hours was the monthly limit - now with a four man crew factorising their hours by two thirds 150 hours becomes the new limit. For sure not every sector operates with an augmented crew, but many of us are all ready flying in excess of 100 hours per month. Even with on board rest this becomes very tiring, especially over an accumulation of months. All this from an airline that recently adopted CAP371 (in part!). You get the picture........
The extension to FDP on an augmented flight is handled slightly differently.
And yes, somewhere northeast of Saudi is the homebase......
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Sorry Charly,
Plank Cap is correct, I was replying to his original post, not questioning you! Sorry for any misunderstanding!
Plank Cap,
From my (regulatory) point of view, I couldn't agree more...One hour of an FDP is one hour, regardless of whether there are 2, 3 or 4 crew on the Flightdeck.
Plank Cap is correct, I was replying to his original post, not questioning you! Sorry for any misunderstanding!
Plank Cap,
From my (regulatory) point of view, I couldn't agree more...One hour of an FDP is one hour, regardless of whether there are 2, 3 or 4 crew on the Flightdeck.
Hong Kong - airborne hours are airborne hours and the limits apply to the all hours spent on the iarcraft with the exception of deadheading. However, when crew augmentation is carried out duty hours can be extended. Under JARS, the same thing applies. But with a F/O or S/O, they claim the hours spent in the seat. But a Captain logs all the hours. If this were tha case with your operation, the captain will surely be logging well in excess of the maximum.
I suppose it comes down to how the relevant flight time limitations are written for that country. However, when there is little distinction between the airline and the regulation department (if I have your base correct!) as it appears they are the same body, there is a conflict bewtween safety and commerce. I would highlight this practice to the aviation regulation body of every FIR you fly through.
I suppose it comes down to how the relevant flight time limitations are written for that country. However, when there is little distinction between the airline and the regulation department (if I have your base correct!) as it appears they are the same body, there is a conflict bewtween safety and commerce. I would highlight this practice to the aviation regulation body of every FIR you fly through.
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In a major operator out east they operate on factorized hours as well. 90% for 3 pilot crew and 85% for 4 pilot crew. But 28 day limit is 95 hours.
From one other thread (can't remember which one) somebody put it quite well. If the governing authority of that country is recognized by ICAO and the operator's operation manuals have been approved by the authority, other governing authorities will accept FTL schemes of that operator.
There are hundreds of operators in the world each with their own FTL scheme. Some strictly following CAP371 limits others modified to fit local industrial norms. UK CAA would have their hands full if they made all operators to/within the UK submit their FTL schemes to check for complience.
From one other thread (can't remember which one) somebody put it quite well. If the governing authority of that country is recognized by ICAO and the operator's operation manuals have been approved by the authority, other governing authorities will accept FTL schemes of that operator.
There are hundreds of operators in the world each with their own FTL scheme. Some strictly following CAP371 limits others modified to fit local industrial norms. UK CAA would have their hands full if they made all operators to/within the UK submit their FTL schemes to check for complience.
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The FAA would have none of this nonsense either.
Hire the right number of guys, or park the damn aeroplanes. Paying more cash might bring in new talent as well...gee, what a surprise.
Hire the right number of guys, or park the damn aeroplanes. Paying more cash might bring in new talent as well...gee, what a surprise.
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Plank Cap
I see that a previous thread that you were involved in was "helicopter down in Dubai".
Now I am trying to think what company flies long range flights with augmented crews. Hmm Am I right? Headquarters about 10km from the Burj Al Arab.
I see that a previous thread that you were involved in was "helicopter down in Dubai".
Now I am trying to think what company flies long range flights with augmented crews. Hmm Am I right? Headquarters about 10km from the Burj Al Arab.
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Sky9, your powers of deduction serve you well........ Word on the street regarding this factorising of augmented crew flying hours is that it may be all about to change in the crew's favour. Believe it when I see it though. Still, at least management are coming to understand we have a fatigue issue......
