Those damned pedantic idiot captains
Menen: As was stated pages ago, maybe Captain Jerk is the type who leaves home in his uniform (with all coat buttons fastened), so that he can ...now...BE SOMEBODY. Such types often do not realize how much trouble they can avoid if a First Officer is willing to quickly speak up when the Captain misses something, and how much the FO will be needed to help with a really big problem, one day, such as a glideslope flag or extending speedbrakes quickly to avoid sliding off the end of a wet or snowy runway. The far end is always rubber-coated and wet (similarities to anything else are purely coincidental!).
Some characters feel that they are in command of the Spanish Armada, instead of one sun-baked, peeling tube of cables, wires, warped aluminum panels, bolts and turbines.
They have their little EMPIRE and its small, delicate, sacred turf must be jealously guarded against intrusion by "the unwashed".
Remember, fellow military academy students called young Napoleon "the little corporal", and he never forgot it.
Some characters feel that they are in command of the Spanish Armada, instead of one sun-baked, peeling tube of cables, wires, warped aluminum panels, bolts and turbines.
They have their little EMPIRE and its small, delicate, sacred turf must be jealously guarded against intrusion by "the unwashed".Remember, fellow military academy students called young Napoleon "the little corporal", and he never forgot it.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 17th Feb 2005 at 05:05.
Talked to shy young Asian pilot who recently graduated from a major flying school in SE Asia. He struck some trauma during his training with an elderly New Zealand flying instructor whose vocabulary was peppered with the "F' word and who he described as "very impatient" Just another pedantic maybe? Or someone who should get out of the game?
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Just finished my command training and am really curious about the seat switch. So far in my flying, the Captains that were the so called pedants kept me on my toes and I generally enjoyed flying with them. They raised the bar just that much higher..... A good thing. Where is 411A on this one.
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Raising the bar just that much higher
Checkster,
In an earlier post in this thread I stated - "As an Instructor, and in the CERTAIN knowledge that upon completion of training and check-out, EVERY student will forget AT LEAST 20% of that which he/she has learned, it is vital to provide excessive attention to detail, such that the amount remembered will be about right". Excessive attention to detail is, by definition, pedantism.
It comes as no surprise to me that so far in your flying, the Captains that were the so called pedants kept you on my toes and that you generally enjoyed flying with them. Of course, you gained something from them. Would you have gained anything from someone who accepted that just good enough was good enough, or even worse, anything goes?
One of the interesting things that I have observed throughout this long-running thread is that many people have a different slant in their own particular interpretation of pedantism. I see many people labelling other posters as pedantic, or non-pedantic (as the case may be), whereas they are often agreeing with each other. Whilst different interpretations for the word abound, Arrogance, Rudeness, Vulgarity, Impatience, and Ego-centricity are definately NOT character traits of a pedant, although oft described in this forum as indicative of pedantism. These negative character traits appear across a broad spectrum of people, and whilst pedants are certainly not exempt from the additional traits, they more typically appear in other character types.
So, if we cannot agree on a common meaning for pedantism, what then is it's opposite? - SLACKER!
Checkster, enjoy your new command, and in dealing with your First Officers, may you never forget your past Captains who kept you on your toes, and that you generally enjoyed flying with. You know the ones that I mean (the P word).
Regards,
Old Smokey
Checkster,
In an earlier post in this thread I stated - "As an Instructor, and in the CERTAIN knowledge that upon completion of training and check-out, EVERY student will forget AT LEAST 20% of that which he/she has learned, it is vital to provide excessive attention to detail, such that the amount remembered will be about right". Excessive attention to detail is, by definition, pedantism.
It comes as no surprise to me that so far in your flying, the Captains that were the so called pedants kept you on my toes and that you generally enjoyed flying with them. Of course, you gained something from them. Would you have gained anything from someone who accepted that just good enough was good enough, or even worse, anything goes?
One of the interesting things that I have observed throughout this long-running thread is that many people have a different slant in their own particular interpretation of pedantism. I see many people labelling other posters as pedantic, or non-pedantic (as the case may be), whereas they are often agreeing with each other. Whilst different interpretations for the word abound, Arrogance, Rudeness, Vulgarity, Impatience, and Ego-centricity are definately NOT character traits of a pedant, although oft described in this forum as indicative of pedantism. These negative character traits appear across a broad spectrum of people, and whilst pedants are certainly not exempt from the additional traits, they more typically appear in other character types.
So, if we cannot agree on a common meaning for pedantism, what then is it's opposite? - SLACKER!
Checkster, enjoy your new command, and in dealing with your First Officers, may you never forget your past Captains who kept you on your toes, and that you generally enjoyed flying with. You know the ones that I mean (the P word).
Regards,
Old Smokey
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Ways of skinning small furry animals
If following SOPs is pedantic, and insisting that the FO / Capt do likewise,why do we have them in the first place?
How many times have you heard ' When I fly with Capt A he likes it done this way but when I fly with Capt B he wants this.'
I don't subscribe to excessive attention to niff naff ' You used the wrong finger to press that button son' but I do believe that sticking to the SOPs does make life easier all round. However being shown a variety of ways of completing the task broadens one's experience base, once again, so long as it falls within the 'rules'.
We exist in a rule / regulation based environment: the gear limit is 250 kts, flap 1 at 280, flap 25 at 180 or whatever for each type. Hence there are certain immutables we observe without invoking the 'pedantic fool' epithet. Where is the line in the sand that separates pedantry from normal professional operation?
The rules run from C to X: if you try to use A,B,Y or Z you are heading in to no man's land and you need to be pulled up. So long as you work the within the rules take a little from everyone, refine it, distill it and in due course pass it along to the next generation.
Remember, don't sweat the small stuff.
How many times have you heard ' When I fly with Capt A he likes it done this way but when I fly with Capt B he wants this.'
I don't subscribe to excessive attention to niff naff ' You used the wrong finger to press that button son' but I do believe that sticking to the SOPs does make life easier all round. However being shown a variety of ways of completing the task broadens one's experience base, once again, so long as it falls within the 'rules'.
We exist in a rule / regulation based environment: the gear limit is 250 kts, flap 1 at 280, flap 25 at 180 or whatever for each type. Hence there are certain immutables we observe without invoking the 'pedantic fool' epithet. Where is the line in the sand that separates pedantry from normal professional operation?
The rules run from C to X: if you try to use A,B,Y or Z you are heading in to no man's land and you need to be pulled up. So long as you work the within the rules take a little from everyone, refine it, distill it and in due course pass it along to the next generation.
Remember, don't sweat the small stuff.
During Vietnam a Navy Flight Surgeon did a presentation to pilot wifes trying to explain why their husbands were hard to live with.
Common threads: 1st born or 1st born of their gender
lettered in sports
college degree
part II
highest percentage of Eagle Scouts
While I was teaching at Mother Rucker each class of 25 had at least 5 Eagle scouts and every class had meet the list almost 100%.
Point being "A" personalities work great together in emergenices (can follow checklists well) because they love doing everything in order. Dont believe me..break your morning routine
of getting shaved and dressed. Shave the opposite side of your face first, shirt second/pants first whatever.
Do you leave at exactly 8:00 and know that at 9:30 you will be at point X, stop for gas at 11:47 and on the road at 11:53.
"Normal" flights are a bear and it comes out in their attitude to the other seat.
Does not make it any easier but better to understand why they
are the way they are. Used to teach this in CRM and it made the
cockpit less tense.
Common threads: 1st born or 1st born of their gender
lettered in sports
college degree
part II
highest percentage of Eagle Scouts
While I was teaching at Mother Rucker each class of 25 had at least 5 Eagle scouts and every class had meet the list almost 100%.
Point being "A" personalities work great together in emergenices (can follow checklists well) because they love doing everything in order. Dont believe me..break your morning routine
of getting shaved and dressed. Shave the opposite side of your face first, shirt second/pants first whatever.
Do you leave at exactly 8:00 and know that at 9:30 you will be at point X, stop for gas at 11:47 and on the road at 11:53.
"Normal" flights are a bear and it comes out in their attitude to the other seat.
Does not make it any easier but better to understand why they
are the way they are. Used to teach this in CRM and it made the
cockpit less tense.
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Slim20, Lord Flashhart a pedantic - Surely you jest!!!! He's got a definition all of his own!!!
If so, I'm going to have to give serious thought to resignation from Pedantics Anonymous.
Kind of miss him though, these threads become a bit too sane sometimes.
If so, I'm going to have to give serious thought to resignation from Pedantics Anonymous.
Kind of miss him though, these threads become a bit too sane sometimes.
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Very interesting subject!
A few comments though.
I never wait and see what the F/O does if he/she make a mistake, just to see what happend because in fact this means that I accept a reduction in safety, howeer neither do I jump on him/her for every little error. It is difficult to bring the message in the right vocabular, but it does work.
I often ask F/O's to command on my CRM skills, I learned a lot from that.
When confronted with a problem, I don't immediatly make decisions, but I always (time permitting of course) ask the F/O for his/her ideas. Helped me prevent a few stuppid ideas from my self.
In general it is my believe that a F/O is as capable in flying the aircraft as me, so whatever we do it's a team effort. The only difference between me and the F/O is that I'm more experienced and I'm more liable. Other then that no difference, maybe the F/O has better understanding of some issues because they did their initial training more recent.
A few comments though.
I never wait and see what the F/O does if he/she make a mistake, just to see what happend because in fact this means that I accept a reduction in safety, howeer neither do I jump on him/her for every little error. It is difficult to bring the message in the right vocabular, but it does work.
I often ask F/O's to command on my CRM skills, I learned a lot from that.
When confronted with a problem, I don't immediatly make decisions, but I always (time permitting of course) ask the F/O for his/her ideas. Helped me prevent a few stuppid ideas from my self.
In general it is my believe that a F/O is as capable in flying the aircraft as me, so whatever we do it's a team effort. The only difference between me and the F/O is that I'm more experienced and I'm more liable. Other then that no difference, maybe the F/O has better understanding of some issues because they did their initial training more recent.
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Somehow keeping the peace
Yea although much stated by all could well be very valid
the bottom line must be "Safety in the air."
As someone "too old " to be captain, it is with great restraint that
one has to put across better solutions confronted in the air.
1.Like questioning a African country's ATC clearance to descend through the preceding aircraft's flight level before it has reported
as now being at it's next lower cleared level.[ ATC had no radar]
2. Like suggesting to the captain that for the DME arc procedure
he'd do better to remain at 12 nm [ or whatever the procedure
calls for ] & he ignores the suggestion, only to arrive over the
runway threshold thousands of feet too high & of course too
close as well !
3. Like when , as PF , the captain states "No speedbrake " when
you know that by slowing down you can "get dirty " sooner,
even descend correctly according to the letdown procedure,
instead one is too high for a landing , requiring a go-around !
Needless to say the captain doesn't admit to the mistake.
He just collects the bigger salary.
And so on.
But as F/O you have to bite your lips until on the ground & then
attempt to discuss the problems & maybe be allowed to state
the obvious solutions. In a company jet job, there's seldom anyone the F/O can appeal to for back-up, particularily when
out in the boondocks of Africa . Or adopt the FIDO manner.
Comments please ?
the bottom line must be "Safety in the air."
As someone "too old " to be captain, it is with great restraint that
one has to put across better solutions confronted in the air.
1.Like questioning a African country's ATC clearance to descend through the preceding aircraft's flight level before it has reported
as now being at it's next lower cleared level.[ ATC had no radar]
2. Like suggesting to the captain that for the DME arc procedure
he'd do better to remain at 12 nm [ or whatever the procedure
calls for ] & he ignores the suggestion, only to arrive over the
runway threshold thousands of feet too high & of course too
close as well !
3. Like when , as PF , the captain states "No speedbrake " when
you know that by slowing down you can "get dirty " sooner,
even descend correctly according to the letdown procedure,
instead one is too high for a landing , requiring a go-around !
Needless to say the captain doesn't admit to the mistake.
He just collects the bigger salary.
And so on.
But as F/O you have to bite your lips until on the ground & then
attempt to discuss the problems & maybe be allowed to state
the obvious solutions. In a company jet job, there's seldom anyone the F/O can appeal to for back-up, particularily when
out in the boondocks of Africa . Or adopt the FIDO manner.
Comments please ?
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Troubles. Nice warm touchy, touchy, feely post. Fortunately it seems you are blessed with superb copilots who as you say can fly better than you and you can learn from them. Have you tried flying with copilots right out of flying school now in the RH seat of a 737 with a grand total of 250 hours in their log books?
One would fervently hope that you can fly better than them. As for asking your copilots to comment freely on your CRM etc - do I detect just a teeny weeny bit of "I would like your praise to massage my ego?" Let's face it, no F/O is going to tell you to your face that you can't fly for nuts and have a complete lack of CRM. I have no doubt judging by your post that you are a first class pilot with admirable traits including CRM - but it's a bit yukky to ask your F/O if he likes your style, don't you think? That is just begging for compliments.
One would fervently hope that you can fly better than them. As for asking your copilots to comment freely on your CRM etc - do I detect just a teeny weeny bit of "I would like your praise to massage my ego?" Let's face it, no F/O is going to tell you to your face that you can't fly for nuts and have a complete lack of CRM. I have no doubt judging by your post that you are a first class pilot with admirable traits including CRM - but it's a bit yukky to ask your F/O if he likes your style, don't you think? That is just begging for compliments.
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GREAT reading!!
HSWL: We both know about the rotten apples even though they prefer to call themself "pedantic".
Unfortunately there is no way around it, just endure it with a happy smile, or simply call "your controls".
Pilots come in different shapes, there are "pedantics" and cowboys. I dont mind either.
But there are 2 types i dont want to share a cockpit with when the sh.. hits the fan:
1. The "pedantic" who doesnt know why he is pedantic
2. The guy who is trying to be Cowboy, but isnt....
Have a safe weekend
HSWL: We both know about the rotten apples even though they prefer to call themself "pedantic".
Unfortunately there is no way around it, just endure it with a happy smile, or simply call "your controls".
Pilots come in different shapes, there are "pedantics" and cowboys. I dont mind either.
But there are 2 types i dont want to share a cockpit with when the sh.. hits the fan:
1. The "pedantic" who doesnt know why he is pedantic
2. The guy who is trying to be Cowboy, but isnt....
Have a safe weekend
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Like the check captain that followed me around right on my heels during a walk-around inspection and then marked me down on his pathetic little "hate sheet" for not knowing the correct number of static wicks on the aircraft. I think I said 17, when it should have been 16 or maybe even 19?
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Any questions? Remarks?
I frequently ask my F/O after the first flight of a series if he/she had problems with my flying/CRM so that the problem doesn't get bigger flight after flight. Particulary if it is the first time we fly together.
Sometimes one can immediately see there is a problem. By changing the subject of the conversation, you find out what the real problem is : the guy wants to be a captain because of the experience but is simply blocked by seniority and doesn't accept this situation as well as your errors as he thinks he could do better. Of course! Nobody's perfect! It is a perfectly human reaction but sometimes difficult to handle as capt (from a CRM point of view...)
As mentionned above, it is also difficult to cope with low experience levels. Ideally, you'd like to see them learn by themselves. But who's responsible in case of trouble? The capt. And there go the comments: "I'd select the flaps now if I were you..."
The best moment in my F/O's career was when I was able to introduce a change in the captain's point of view without creating a conflict. THAT was CRM.
My next objective if to reach the same level of persuasion as a capt. Without having to say sometimes: "It's like that. End of story" Hopefully, this is very rare, our company has a balanced amount of low level / high level hours F/O's.
Anybody feeling the same?
Sometimes one can immediately see there is a problem. By changing the subject of the conversation, you find out what the real problem is : the guy wants to be a captain because of the experience but is simply blocked by seniority and doesn't accept this situation as well as your errors as he thinks he could do better. Of course! Nobody's perfect! It is a perfectly human reaction but sometimes difficult to handle as capt (from a CRM point of view...)
As mentionned above, it is also difficult to cope with low experience levels. Ideally, you'd like to see them learn by themselves. But who's responsible in case of trouble? The capt. And there go the comments: "I'd select the flaps now if I were you..."
The best moment in my F/O's career was when I was able to introduce a change in the captain's point of view without creating a conflict. THAT was CRM.
My next objective if to reach the same level of persuasion as a capt. Without having to say sometimes: "It's like that. End of story" Hopefully, this is very rare, our company has a balanced amount of low level / high level hours F/O's.
Anybody feeling the same?
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Importance of CRM
Thanks for your post !
During & at the end the flight any good CRM makes for a
safer flying operation.
Achieving it "maketh the man "
That's exactly what I was trying to say in my previous post
Happy landings
During & at the end the flight any good CRM makes for a
safer flying operation.
Achieving it "maketh the man "
That's exactly what I was trying to say in my previous post
Happy landings
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I was sitting by the bar in the pub tonight and over heard a conversation of a guy sitting next to me who was talking very loudly. He was slagging off his first officer to a friend who was not a pilot, telling him how good he was and how poor the first officer was. It went on for ages. How his FO lacked skill and judgement and how he had to take over .Spoke quite loud, new everything done everything. Then he started on about how the company had employed a ' girl' She went very well at the interview but they should have listened to him as it was obvious she was going to be a waste of time.
He did not know he was being overheard by two pilots sitting also along the bar, we both felt very embarrassed by his arrogance and attitude. I didnot want to sit listening to him so we moved, pity his first officer cannot do that in the cockpit.
He did not know he was being overheard by two pilots sitting also along the bar, we both felt very embarrassed by his arrogance and attitude. I didnot want to sit listening to him so we moved, pity his first officer cannot do that in the cockpit.
