Right People in the Seats??

[The Swinging Monkey]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

Some months ago I wrote on this forum about my concern at Airlines seating the wrong type of people in the emergency exit seats on airliners.

I regret to say, that the practice is still going on, and I now do not believe for one minute, that the airlines are concerned about this aspect of safety at all.

Over the past few weeks, I have travelled extensively throughout the far east, flying mainly with one (very) well known carrier, based in HK. At each check in, I advised them of my request for the emergency exit seat, (primarily because I am 6' 3") but also pointing out that I am very current with the workings of the escape systems on Mr Boeings 'Big' aircraft. On every occasion, bar one, I was advised that the seats had already been allocated (despite me checking in very early) When I boarded, I found that they were occupied on three occasions by children under 6 - 8yrs old. Often, they were occupied by passengers who were elderly, and on some occasions, the passengers were physically disabled, needing a walking stick.

Now, I appreciate that opening a door in an emergency is not rocket science, and I am sure that the majority of reasonably fit-and-able people could cope with it quite adequately. But please, could the airline world explain to me why you are prepared to put the lives of your passengers at such severe risk, by allowing passengers to occupy these seats, when it is patently obvious they would struggle if the worst were to happen??

I have to say, it concerns me greatly, that an airline is prepared to put my safety in the hands of people who would be unable to do the job in an emergency, and in the hands of others who would clearly be a hinderance.

Please explain to me all you civilian operator types, thank you.

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey

[Bealzebub]

The requirements for seating passengers near to exits is often dictated by specific company requirements rather than statute. As you say many airlines have policies concerning who "ordinarilly" should and should not be allocated specific seats. As you will appreciate even then it is not always possible or practical to enforce such policies to the absolute satisfaction of those requirements. Generally airlines will issue instructions to their check in agents to try and ensure that seats adjacent to exits are occupied by "able bodied" passengers and not by young children or passengers with mobility imparement. Of course the interpretation and perhaps assesment of such things is often not clear cut.

One point that you may have overlooked is that main exits are supervised and duty allocated to specific crew members for take off and landing. These crew are thoroughly trained in exit management and evacuation procedures. So of course your concern that your life is being put at risk is rather overstated. As you appreciate "exit seats" are often those that have greater legroom than may be the norm, and their desirability to passengers is very much enhanced by this fact.

I might argue that as a crewmember, trained and tested every year in exits and evacuation procedures, I should be seated in such a seat whenever travelling as a passenger and people such as your good self should be moved to accomodate my desire. However that won't happen and safety will not be unduly compromised as a result.

I have some sympathy with your arguement and agree that policies concerning passenger seating should be adhered to as best as is practically possible. However safety is not put into the hands of unsuitable passengers. The lives of passengers are not being put at "severe risk" by perceived lapses in seating policy, or even by differences in such a policy. Safety management is the responsibility of the crew at the day to day level, and they are charged with ensuring that exits are properly manned and operated as may be necessary.

[av8boy]

As you will appreciate even then it is not always possible or practical to enforce such policies to the absolute satisfaction of those requirements.

Respectfully, I believe that the reason that such a standard is in any way “acceptable” is simply a function of the rarity of situations in which passengers actually NEED to evacuate the aircraft via over-wing exits. If the chances of passengers needing to exit over the wing are low enough to warrant allowing anyone at all to sit in the exit row, then we might as well get rid of the extra space in those rows as well. Further, we should allow seats to recline into the exit rows. Hell, we may as well get rid of over-wing exits altogether. Of course, that’s not what you’re advocating. However, when you assert that,

One point that you may have overlooked is that main exits are supervised and duty allocated to specific crew members for take off and landing. These crew are thoroughly trained in exit management and evacuation procedures.

you are, indeed, starting down that road. Bottom line is, in my lifetime, the chances of me needing to get out of any aircraft via over-wing exit are pretty close to zero. However, when egress via this route IS required, the probability of time being of the essence is extraordinarily high. What’s more, the track record for intelligent, able-bodied adults being able to get the door open and traffic flowing is not particularly impressive. Thus, the very last thing I care to do is to entrust that task to children, the infirm, or the extremely elderly—people who will probably have an even tougher time of doing what needs to be done. Although I am confident that cabin crew will be doing a stellar job at their main cabin exits, near the wing-root, we’re largely on our own.

I leave you with some text from the accident report for the 737-236, G-BGJL at Manchester International Airport on 22 August 1985. Note that the “thorough training of cabin crew in exit management and evacuation procedures” had no bearing on the efficacy of over-wing egress…

The decision to open the right over-wing exit was taken by passengers themselves, motivated by the fact that the forward aisle was by this stage blocked with passengers waiting to exit through the forward galley area, with others already making their way over the seats. The female passenger in seat 10F adjacent to the right over wing hatch, upon being exhorted by passengers behind to open the door, undid her seat belt and turned in her seat to face the hatch. She saw the 'Emergency Pull' instruction at the top oft he hatch, but pulled at the armrest which was fixed to the lower area of the hatch. She was not familiar with the door opening procedure and unaware if the door was hinged at the top, bottom, left or right, or if it would come straight off. Her female friend in seat 10E stood up and pulled at the release handle adjacent to the instruction. The hatch, which weighed 48 lbs, fell inboard across the chest of the passenger in 10F, trapping her in her seat. She managed to get out from under the door and a male passenger sitting behind her assisted by lifting the hatch over the back of row 10, depositing it on the vacant seat 11D.

Dave

[The Swinging Monkey]

Dave,

It is the Manchester disaster that always come to mind with me also. I lost a friend in the accident, and I feel certain that it must have been (at least in part), something to do with him not being able to get out.

Beazlebub. like you, I am absolutely certain (and I hope and pray) that I will never need to get out of a passenger aircraft via the overwing or emergency exits, however.....during 30+ year of flying big, heavy jets in the military, I have had to make at least 3 emergency evacuations on the runway (both prior to flight and on landing!) so I am maybe more aware than most that '$hit does happen!!' But, would you not agree that this is a simple matter of common sense?

My point is simply that if airlines are going to go the effort of getting Mr Boeing to put these nice emergency exits into his aircraft, then the least, the VERY least they can do, is have those seats in the immediate area, manned by fit and able people. I am sure that your point about exits being manned by qualified cabin staff is most valid, but with the utmost respect, I hardly feel that a cabin attendant will stand a chance of being able to control hundreds of terrified passengers all clammering to get out of a small overwing hatch, that some 80 year old infirm lady is struggling to open!

So, come on all you airline co's, at least try to be seen to be making an effort. Remember, some of your passengers, might just be able to help you out when the unthinkable occurs, and to ignore their offer is at best foolhearty, and at worst downright irresponsible.

Rant over!

Kind regards
The Swinging Monkey

[Shorty Final]

Monkey as already said, it's different for airlines.Our hosties as very strict in enforcing the able bodied passengers over 16 years of age rule.Sometime sthat results in a small delay but we take that happily.I agree with you completely,have you contacted your HK based airline of an explanation and to ask what their policy in this regard is?

[The Swinging Monkey]

Shorty Final,

Thanks for your comments.
I have written to them and asked for an explanation and I await their responce. (I'll let you know)
Maybe I should fly with you guys???

Kind regards
TSM

[The Swinging Monkey]

Thanks Mike,

I have never been asked about responsibility for opening doors, and indeed, I have never, ever sen anyone briefed on their operation. I know its Noddy, but you would think that those in the seats were at least told, 'yep, it turns this way, and requires a good yank or something!'

Nevertheless, it has raised the question again, and brought it up for discussion.

Once I hear from HK I'll update you all.
Best wishes
TSM

[Terzal]

How about if there was some sort of mock up that passengers sitting in the emergency exit rows were asked to practice on before bording the flight?

Obviously it wouldn't be feasable to provide this everywhere, and I suppose different aircraft types have different design doors, but even if it gave some idea of how heavy the door was it would give the passenger the chance to change seats if they didn't feel up to opening the exit.

[The Swinging Monkey]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I just wanted to let you know that after almost 5 months, I have finally heard back from those nice people in HK.
Regretably, the standard of their reply was about the same as the standard of the seat they gave me to fly home from HK in!! In essence their reply says......

'thanks for your letter, thanks for bringing it to our attention, and we look forward to welcoming you aboad another of our flights blah' What a weak and pathetic letter it is.

Well I'm not sure that they will ever have that pleasure again. Not one of the points I raised was mentioned or even commented on, and as one of the worlds biggest airlines and carriers, that is a little bit dissapointing to say the least. So shame on them for their lack of care and consideration and for their apparant ignorance in ignoring valid and constructive comments.

Maybe I'll fly the world's 'favourite airline' next time I visit the Far East.

Kind regards
The swinging Monkey

[rubik101]

Even a Low Cost carrier such as easyJet ensures only able bodied pax sit at the overwings and they are briefed on the use of the door, every time!

[BlueEagle]

You may not want to bother now but you could still find out the CEOs name and address your original complaint to him and combine it with your dissatisfaction at their eventual reply, if you do this at least your time won't have been wasted!

[chuks]

I recently flew BA from LGW to HAJ, on a 737-800. The flight attendant fixed me with a concentrated look as she asked me if I knew how to operate the exit. She also told me to stow my jacket in the overhead locker if I took it off, not to leave it near the exit during take-off or landing.

There, at least, was an airline that was paying close attention to business.

[Approaching Minimums]

I must say that I have always admired how KLM treats the passengers seated on overwing exit seats. I have noticed how F/As always will give an extra safety briefing for those passengers personally. The best thing is that after this briefing they will ask questions to ensure that the passengers really know what to do in case of emergency. I have not ever seen too young/old/disabled persons on those seats either. I think many airlines could learn something from KLM in this case...

Best regards,
Approaching Minimums

[Captain Stable]

AppMins - I am sure Flaps40 will be very pleased to hear that!