Use of Non-ICAO Languages on radios
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Use of Non-ICAO Languages on radios
Someone recently mentioned to me the use of Non-ICAO language whilst in various european airspace and at airfields (namely France) is not only allowed but is mandatory, according to french law!
Is this true? If it is, what is being done to reverse this potentially hazardous situation?
Has anyone here been involved in ground incidents as a result of these SOP's?
Can anyone else see the potential for an accident as a result of what I consider to be pig headed arrogance?
Is this true? If it is, what is being done to reverse this potentially hazardous situation?
Has anyone here been involved in ground incidents as a result of these SOP's?
Can anyone else see the potential for an accident as a result of what I consider to be pig headed arrogance?
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I guess you guys have actually read the ICAO SARPs for language then ??
French, Swahili, or anything else, is permitted in the right circumstance.
Try a search as this has been done to death before.
French, Swahili, or anything else, is permitted in the right circumstance.
Try a search as this has been done to death before.
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Yawn, this topic appears here on a regular basis. First of all, there is no "only one international ICAO language". There are a few: English, French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese.
This argument seems to be the favorite for the francophobics. Widen your horizon please and look at Latin America: Nosotros hablamos espanol! And that is better that way. Scary to imagine national airlines trying to speak und understand ATC instructions in English.
About this being a potentially dangerous situation I spent a lot of time discussing this topic with another member here a few months ago. Briefly summarized:
*"Foreign" language on ATC is nothing new. Has been around for many years. Accidents directly contributed to dual-language ATC are rare.
*If you are really concerned, try to think outside your "box" a little and learn some basics words (numbers, cleared for t/o) etc.
*The military mainly transmits on UHF and half the time civilians don't even hear the military ATC instructions.
*How much time do you spend in analyzing and verifying ATC instructions given to other a/c (in English) while on approach or departure?
*Forcing a country to speak the "only international language" (which is not correct) is not only arrogant, but dangerous. Speaking does not mean understanding a language. Besides, there are different ATC terminologies in "English-only spoken ATC" airspace (US/UK/Carribean etc.) that can cause the same potential danger.
If you cannot accept that things are different in other countries (not only France) stick to national flying!
7 7 7 7
This argument seems to be the favorite for the francophobics. Widen your horizon please and look at Latin America: Nosotros hablamos espanol! And that is better that way. Scary to imagine national airlines trying to speak und understand ATC instructions in English.
About this being a potentially dangerous situation I spent a lot of time discussing this topic with another member here a few months ago. Briefly summarized:
*"Foreign" language on ATC is nothing new. Has been around for many years. Accidents directly contributed to dual-language ATC are rare.
*If you are really concerned, try to think outside your "box" a little and learn some basics words (numbers, cleared for t/o) etc.
*The military mainly transmits on UHF and half the time civilians don't even hear the military ATC instructions.
*How much time do you spend in analyzing and verifying ATC instructions given to other a/c (in English) while on approach or departure?
*Forcing a country to speak the "only international language" (which is not correct) is not only arrogant, but dangerous. Speaking does not mean understanding a language. Besides, there are different ATC terminologies in "English-only spoken ATC" airspace (US/UK/Carribean etc.) that can cause the same potential danger.
If you cannot accept that things are different in other countries (not only France) stick to national flying!
7 7 7 7
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A little further background on this; I am carrying out a presentation on a topic similar to this recently and am genuinely interested. I will carry out a search thanks to answer the rest of my questions, however I must say that I was a little surprised to find out that this was permitted. Surely Eurocontrol is all about standardisation? That is not an anti-frenchie comment, that was my outlook on it.
Why do other countries then, use english and not their national language if it is permitted, and in particular, why is it legislated in France? I know it is their country, but to ignore flight safety and the "rare" occurence as a result seems a little dumb. Why have it happen rarely when it does not have to happen at all?
Personally, having to learn the local lingo for every standard RT phrase in existence does not make sense when everyone can go off the same songsheet and use an ICAO specified language. I think having to learn phraseology for every country I fly into is not only massively inconvenient, I also consider this to be a major safety hazard as I do not want to be unsure of what exactly is supposed to be communicated, EVERYTHING over R/T should follow an exact, standard pattern.
Why do other countries then, use english and not their national language if it is permitted, and in particular, why is it legislated in France? I know it is their country, but to ignore flight safety and the "rare" occurence as a result seems a little dumb. Why have it happen rarely when it does not have to happen at all?
Personally, having to learn the local lingo for every standard RT phrase in existence does not make sense when everyone can go off the same songsheet and use an ICAO specified language. I think having to learn phraseology for every country I fly into is not only massively inconvenient, I also consider this to be a major safety hazard as I do not want to be unsure of what exactly is supposed to be communicated, EVERYTHING over R/T should follow an exact, standard pattern.
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I fly in French airspace often, I have never had a problem communicating with ATC in English. Same goes for Quebec and many other places, the nationals use the national language and ATC accomodates ICAO English speakers as well. What is the big deal?
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If you want to research the accident database, start with the CDG fatality to a crewmember of a UK aircraft when it was struck by a departing a/c. Shorts360 & MD80 something from memory. Sorry I don't have a link to the relevant AAIB report - have a look through their site.
An airport I visited in Switzerland recently use English and French on ATC/aircraft comms and French only on a different frequency for ground vehicles on the runway. When questioned on this apparently risky process they said that we don't know how lucky we are in the UK being able to stipulate English as the only language used for ATC, both on the ground and in the air.
I'll go along with the idea of learning a few of the key phrases/numbers you're likely to hear in French (or Swiss!) airspace.
Some crews DO pay attention to messages given to other aircraft as a way of improving their situational awareness - I'd have thought that was a basic part of airmanship. It's something I've always done. Not only 'see and be seen', but 'hear and be heard', too.
The Odd One
An airport I visited in Switzerland recently use English and French on ATC/aircraft comms and French only on a different frequency for ground vehicles on the runway. When questioned on this apparently risky process they said that we don't know how lucky we are in the UK being able to stipulate English as the only language used for ATC, both on the ground and in the air.
I'll go along with the idea of learning a few of the key phrases/numbers you're likely to hear in French (or Swiss!) airspace.
Some crews DO pay attention to messages given to other aircraft as a way of improving their situational awareness - I'd have thought that was a basic part of airmanship. It's something I've always done. Not only 'see and be seen', but 'hear and be heard', too.
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OddOne
I read a CDG accident report some time ago, but it does not seem that the dual-language was the only factor. Given the situational awareness factor on the ground, I believe that they did not maintain a sterile cockpit. That is the only accident I know that is being used over and over again. How long has France had their dual language airspace? Would "English-only" be safer? I honestly doubt it.
Again, all this is just my point of view and I have flown a lot into Spanish speaking non-radar/ third world airspace and I am still alive. I don't speak/understand Spanish well enough to make myself understandable.
I agree with you about "hear and be heard". From my experience the biggest complainers are the ones that don't listen for other traffic.
mbga9pgf,
since it seems that English is your native language, you have to realize that speaking English for ESL people does not neccesarily mean to understand it. If for instance Mexico would be a "English-only" ATC environment, then I would be really scared! Speaking of "other" countries, if I am not mistaken, VFR traffic in most countries is mainly using their country's language.
All in all, it really depends on your background in speaking more than one language. As far as I have looked into this, complaints about "non-English" ATC have come from native-English speaking pilots. Pilots whose native language was not English (ESL), seem to see this less a "risk".
Finally, it depends on your attitude. Procedures/air laws are always going to be different in the "other" country. That's what makes flying unique.
I read a CDG accident report some time ago, but it does not seem that the dual-language was the only factor. Given the situational awareness factor on the ground, I believe that they did not maintain a sterile cockpit. That is the only accident I know that is being used over and over again. How long has France had their dual language airspace? Would "English-only" be safer? I honestly doubt it.
Again, all this is just my point of view and I have flown a lot into Spanish speaking non-radar/ third world airspace and I am still alive. I don't speak/understand Spanish well enough to make myself understandable.
I agree with you about "hear and be heard". From my experience the biggest complainers are the ones that don't listen for other traffic.
mbga9pgf,
since it seems that English is your native language, you have to realize that speaking English for ESL people does not neccesarily mean to understand it. If for instance Mexico would be a "English-only" ATC environment, then I would be really scared! Speaking of "other" countries, if I am not mistaken, VFR traffic in most countries is mainly using their country's language.
All in all, it really depends on your background in speaking more than one language. As far as I have looked into this, complaints about "non-English" ATC have come from native-English speaking pilots. Pilots whose native language was not English (ESL), seem to see this less a "risk".
Finally, it depends on your attitude. Procedures/air laws are always going to be different in the "other" country. That's what makes flying unique.
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This subject has been aired here before.
It was a while ago, so I shall permit this thread to stay open. However, at the first hint of this becoming a French-bashing thread, it will be closed and the perpetrators banned forthwith.
FWIW, French IS an ICAO language. People complaining about subjects need to get their facts straight before making the complaint.
It was a while ago, so I shall permit this thread to stay open. However, at the first hint of this becoming a French-bashing thread, it will be closed and the perpetrators banned forthwith.
FWIW, French IS an ICAO language. People complaining about subjects need to get their facts straight before making the complaint.
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International Civil Aviation Organisation ( ICAO). Is just that an Organisation of contracting states. As far as I am aware the languages listed ( English, French, Spanish and Russian) are simply the languages that are adopted for internal and external publication of Reports recommendations etc). It has nothing to do with restricting the languages that can be used on the radio.
There is a lengthy explanation of the history and structure of ICAO at its website together with a list of contracting states and much additional information. I think "ICAO" is often used as a bit of a red herring in regard to aviation laws and procedures. It frequently makes recommendations that individual states may or may not adopt. A bit like the United nations in that respect.
You often see threads on these boards from individuals claiming to have "an ICAO pilots licence" when in fact there is no such thing. They mean they have a pilots licence issued by an ICAO member state, which may be interesting but usually has little meaningful significance.
In answer to your question, I have no doubt there are many examples of poor communication that have eroded safety in the past and they will probably continue to do so to a greater or lesser degree in the future. Even where English is the sole language of communication, it is not usually the states primary language, nor is it necessarily understood to a level beyond the bounds of necessity. Technology such as FANS and datalink may well positively address these problems in the future.
Whatever may be the shortcomings of the system, beware the idea "pig headed arrogance". If a universal standard were ever to be agreed and mandated it might be Spanish, or mandarin Chinese, both of which are very wide spoken languages ?
There is a lengthy explanation of the history and structure of ICAO at its website together with a list of contracting states and much additional information. I think "ICAO" is often used as a bit of a red herring in regard to aviation laws and procedures. It frequently makes recommendations that individual states may or may not adopt. A bit like the United nations in that respect.
You often see threads on these boards from individuals claiming to have "an ICAO pilots licence" when in fact there is no such thing. They mean they have a pilots licence issued by an ICAO member state, which may be interesting but usually has little meaningful significance.
In answer to your question, I have no doubt there are many examples of poor communication that have eroded safety in the past and they will probably continue to do so to a greater or lesser degree in the future. Even where English is the sole language of communication, it is not usually the states primary language, nor is it necessarily understood to a level beyond the bounds of necessity. Technology such as FANS and datalink may well positively address these problems in the future.
Whatever may be the shortcomings of the system, beware the idea "pig headed arrogance". If a universal standard were ever to be agreed and mandated it might be Spanish, or mandarin Chinese, both of which are very wide spoken languages ?
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Indeed, both Spanish and Mandarin (and Cantonese and Arabic) are widely-spoken languages.
However, English is probably th most widely-spoken language both as a first and second language, so i suspect it would be the logical choice. However, that choice has not yet been made (and shows no signs whatsoever of being made) so we have to stick with things as they are at present. Unsatisfactory, I know, but there we are.
If anyone is interested I have a Powerpoint presentation which details the history of the experiment of Air France using Aeronautical English at CDG, what problems it encountered and what happened there. Very illuminating, and it blows many of the myths one hears around the crew rooms.
However, English is probably th most widely-spoken language both as a first and second language, so i suspect it would be the logical choice. However, that choice has not yet been made (and shows no signs whatsoever of being made) so we have to stick with things as they are at present. Unsatisfactory, I know, but there we are.
If anyone is interested I have a Powerpoint presentation which details the history of the experiment of Air France using Aeronautical English at CDG, what problems it encountered and what happened there. Very illuminating, and it blows many of the myths one hears around the crew rooms.
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If you don't like my tone, you know where you can go. If you don't like the way I moderate this board, feel free to complain to Danny.
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Last edited by Captain Stable; 13th Oct 2004 at 21:07.
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Jerricho
bring it on!
Well, you're wrong!
Capt. Stable, is there a chance you could post/email the AF experiment? On a second thought, you'd probably have many people disputing the finding, "because the French want to protect their language, and blablabla". Interestingly, no one replied to my post/experience about Spanish dual-language ATC. It seems more an anti-French issue than anything else...
7 7 7 7
bring it on!
Well, you're wrong!
Capt. Stable, is there a chance you could post/email the AF experiment? On a second thought, you'd probably have many people disputing the finding, "because the French want to protect their language, and blablabla". Interestingly, no one replied to my post/experience about Spanish dual-language ATC. It seems more an anti-French issue than anything else...
7 7 7 7
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Squawk - if you PM me with your email address I'll certainly send it - several others have asked for it.
To those, if you don't receive it, please PM me again. I sent it, but my machine crashed very shortly afterwards, leaving me unsure whether it was actually sent or not.
To those, if you don't receive it, please PM me again. I sent it, but my machine crashed very shortly afterwards, leaving me unsure whether it was actually sent or not.
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Guten Tag, Ni How,
It's amazing how quickly a well intentioned and polite question or post will be opportunistically leaped upon by someone with an axe to grind, n'est ce pas?
Putting aside the question of 'acceptable' ICAO and regional languages, I've always thought that of the common practice of greeting controllers in their own language as a nice courtesy. To go beyond the greeting or a 'thank you' is silly and dangerous, unless you're proficient in the language and it is oficially recognised in that airspace.
Dos Vadanya,
Usok matanda.
It's amazing how quickly a well intentioned and polite question or post will be opportunistically leaped upon by someone with an axe to grind, n'est ce pas?
Putting aside the question of 'acceptable' ICAO and regional languages, I've always thought that of the common practice of greeting controllers in their own language as a nice courtesy. To go beyond the greeting or a 'thank you' is silly and dangerous, unless you're proficient in the language and it is oficially recognised in that airspace.
Dos Vadanya,
Usok matanda.
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A huge problem I fear is when pilots that are native English speakers revert to jargon and stray from ICAO phraseology. Many times ATC will not understand and will act as if they do. The post where the chap made the comment to pick up some of the indiginous language is a very valid one. I thank god that ICAO chose English for my sake but I know that allot of foreign controllers are really not comfortable when off script. Stick to the script lads.
In a different vein Valuejet 592 went down because a couple reasons but I feel the main one was the lack of the mechanics to use the correct wording when packing the belly with O2 generators. The manifest said they were "empty" and they were not. They were expired and still capable of heat and O2. Piss poor training and communication brought that bird down. Those mechanics clearly did not have command of the English language and never should have been given A&P licenses. Clear communication is the biggest tool we have to keep each other alive. Lets use it.
Rant Over...
In a different vein Valuejet 592 went down because a couple reasons but I feel the main one was the lack of the mechanics to use the correct wording when packing the belly with O2 generators. The manifest said they were "empty" and they were not. They were expired and still capable of heat and O2. Piss poor training and communication brought that bird down. Those mechanics clearly did not have command of the English language and never should have been given A&P licenses. Clear communication is the biggest tool we have to keep each other alive. Lets use it.
Rant Over...
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The problem that you fear AntiCrash, is already with us, no longer a fear but reality.
The major problem that I see is in the rapidly expanding international airline operations into countries such as China, Japan, and Thailand, where English is a Second Language. You'll find no real problem in the well established airports such as Beijing, Narita, and Bangkok, but as airports which were previously secondary domestic airports gain international status, the numbers of controllers 'highly proficient' in the English language are too few in number. The ATC staff do their job well, as long as the conversation is strictly limited to standard ICAO phraseologies.
And then along comes the latest turkey with his "Outa Thirty-One, headin' for Twenty, lookin' for lower". The response is usually the Chinese, Japanese, or Thai equivalent of "Huh?"
It is a REAL problem that is with us now, and getting worse.
The major problem that I see is in the rapidly expanding international airline operations into countries such as China, Japan, and Thailand, where English is a Second Language. You'll find no real problem in the well established airports such as Beijing, Narita, and Bangkok, but as airports which were previously secondary domestic airports gain international status, the numbers of controllers 'highly proficient' in the English language are too few in number. The ATC staff do their job well, as long as the conversation is strictly limited to standard ICAO phraseologies.
And then along comes the latest turkey with his "Outa Thirty-One, headin' for Twenty, lookin' for lower". The response is usually the Chinese, Japanese, or Thai equivalent of "Huh?"
It is a REAL problem that is with us now, and getting worse.
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Was waiting to cross the paralell runway in NCE 2 days ago, heard someone talking in french about me, but did not get what they said. So when asked to cross the RW I did, Then ATC came back this time in english screaming that I have to hurry up because there are two french airplanes behind me also crossing. This was the first time I heard about this, but the french planes had been told to follow me, that's why my callsign was mentioned. Why did we get rid of the rear wiew mirrors. ??