Deportees / Inadmissable persons......?
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Deportees / Inadmissable persons......?
I would be interested in hearing peoples / companies views on deportees or inadmissable persons being carried on commercial flights
Are you happy to carry them unescorted
Have you experienced any trouble with them
From a security point of view, how do you and the crew at the back feel about carrying them
Do you feel that Immigration personnel have any due regard for the safety of you and pax when putting these people on board
Are you happy to carry them unescorted
Have you experienced any trouble with them
From a security point of view, how do you and the crew at the back feel about carrying them
Do you feel that Immigration personnel have any due regard for the safety of you and pax when putting these people on board
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Flame,
This response may be in fairly general / non-specific terms as it borders upon security matters, and I have no wish to disseminate security information over a public forum.
My own experience is in Singapore, a reasonably affluent country surrounded by countries of somewhat less affluence. It is a country of considerable numbers of reasonably well paid (by their home country standards) foreign workers, and a great number of illegal workers try to enter here to make a living on the 'black market', illegal labour, prostitution etc. Allied to this are the considerable number of 'black market' workers already here, and regularly deported on the grounds of 'Suspicion to commit an offence' (no proof required - we suspect, so out you go!).
The bottom line to this lengthy introduction is that, on a daily basis, we see on our flights a lot of Deportees and a lot of NTLs (Not to Land - Inadmissable persons). The afore-mentioned could well be titled 'Economic Deportees / Inadmissable Persons, and are genuinely non violent, nor had it been their intention to perpertrate any violent acts. It is in fact saddening to see these dispirited, dejected, and cowed people being herded aboard the aircrat. From this background, I will attempt to answer your 4 questions -
Are you happy to carry them unescorted - Quite happy, they are non-violent, not suspected as being such, and are very subdued.
Have you experienced any trouble with them - No. As technical crew they cause us no problem, the Cabin Crew often have to go the extra mile in consoling them, they are terrified of arriving home empty handed.
From a security point of view, how do you and the crew at the back feel about carrying them - No security threat with this group, hysteria arising from their situation is sometimes an unfortunate cabin crew problem, but this is not a security threat.
Do you feel that Immigration personnel have any due regard for the safety of you and pax when putting these people on board - Immigration could not give a damn, I have never encountered a more cold, robotic, and heartless group of people in my life. I know several prison officers here (in a country that practices capital punishment and flogging) that possess far more of 'the milk of human kindness' than 1 Immigration officer.
NOW - If the Deportee / Inadmissable Person in any way poses a security threat (Names on INTERPOL want list, Suspicion of violent association, past deportation, fake Passports etc.) these people are immediately handed over to the Police / Relevant security authority, and the matter handled from there. When these people are finally deported, they WILL be escorted, and the level of escort in accordance with the security risk involved. If satisfactorily escorted, there should be no concern to the crew, but the Captain retain's the authority to refuse carriage if he / she is not satisfied that adequate security has been applied.
This response may be in fairly general / non-specific terms as it borders upon security matters, and I have no wish to disseminate security information over a public forum.
My own experience is in Singapore, a reasonably affluent country surrounded by countries of somewhat less affluence. It is a country of considerable numbers of reasonably well paid (by their home country standards) foreign workers, and a great number of illegal workers try to enter here to make a living on the 'black market', illegal labour, prostitution etc. Allied to this are the considerable number of 'black market' workers already here, and regularly deported on the grounds of 'Suspicion to commit an offence' (no proof required - we suspect, so out you go!).
The bottom line to this lengthy introduction is that, on a daily basis, we see on our flights a lot of Deportees and a lot of NTLs (Not to Land - Inadmissable persons). The afore-mentioned could well be titled 'Economic Deportees / Inadmissable Persons, and are genuinely non violent, nor had it been their intention to perpertrate any violent acts. It is in fact saddening to see these dispirited, dejected, and cowed people being herded aboard the aircrat. From this background, I will attempt to answer your 4 questions -
Are you happy to carry them unescorted - Quite happy, they are non-violent, not suspected as being such, and are very subdued.
Have you experienced any trouble with them - No. As technical crew they cause us no problem, the Cabin Crew often have to go the extra mile in consoling them, they are terrified of arriving home empty handed.
From a security point of view, how do you and the crew at the back feel about carrying them - No security threat with this group, hysteria arising from their situation is sometimes an unfortunate cabin crew problem, but this is not a security threat.
Do you feel that Immigration personnel have any due regard for the safety of you and pax when putting these people on board - Immigration could not give a damn, I have never encountered a more cold, robotic, and heartless group of people in my life. I know several prison officers here (in a country that practices capital punishment and flogging) that possess far more of 'the milk of human kindness' than 1 Immigration officer.
NOW - If the Deportee / Inadmissable Person in any way poses a security threat (Names on INTERPOL want list, Suspicion of violent association, past deportation, fake Passports etc.) these people are immediately handed over to the Police / Relevant security authority, and the matter handled from there. When these people are finally deported, they WILL be escorted, and the level of escort in accordance with the security risk involved. If satisfactorily escorted, there should be no concern to the crew, but the Captain retain's the authority to refuse carriage if he / she is not satisfied that adequate security has been applied.
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Old Smokey;
My sincerest thanks for taking the time and trouble to reply to me, I actually thought that this may have been a subject of interest to more crew members.
My main purpose in starting the topic, is because recently at Dublin, there have been a few cases of persons who have been refused entry to Ireland, being put back on flights. In almost all cases where the Immigration people are asked who these people are, they reply that they have not got a clue who they are as they arrived with false documents.
Surely, these people are a threat of some sort, as in the main, no one has a clue who they are, bearing in mind the current nature of International terrorism
My sincerest thanks for taking the time and trouble to reply to me, I actually thought that this may have been a subject of interest to more crew members.
My main purpose in starting the topic, is because recently at Dublin, there have been a few cases of persons who have been refused entry to Ireland, being put back on flights. In almost all cases where the Immigration people are asked who these people are, they reply that they have not got a clue who they are as they arrived with false documents.
Surely, these people are a threat of some sort, as in the main, no one has a clue who they are, bearing in mind the current nature of International terrorism
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I was asked if a deportee could be put on an A/C (cargo) that I was in command of, to be taken back to Africa, from an airport in Europe.
I refused to take the deportee unless there was an escort on board. The reason being, the poor guy could have been going back to a country where he escaped from, and could have been facing a death sentance on his return.
If you were in that situation, you would all make damned sure the A/C did not land at an airport in a country, where you thought you would loose your life.
The remainder of the crew, were of the same view.
I refused to take the deportee unless there was an escort on board. The reason being, the poor guy could have been going back to a country where he escaped from, and could have been facing a death sentance on his return.
If you were in that situation, you would all make damned sure the A/C did not land at an airport in a country, where you thought you would loose your life.
The remainder of the crew, were of the same view.
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josephshankes;
Many thanks for that.
Now, if the same principal was applied to all flights (Cargo +Pax) surely we shaould be insisiting that all these people are escorted. What have any of these people to loose by causing mayhem on a flight.
Chances are, the flight will divert, thus stopping them being brought back to someplace that they do not want to go to, and on arrival in the diversion airport, they will seek asylum and under present rules, they must be taken off the aircraft and their case examined
Many thanks for that.
Now, if the same principal was applied to all flights (Cargo +Pax) surely we shaould be insisiting that all these people are escorted. What have any of these people to loose by causing mayhem on a flight.
Chances are, the flight will divert, thus stopping them being brought back to someplace that they do not want to go to, and on arrival in the diversion airport, they will seek asylum and under present rules, they must be taken off the aircraft and their case examined
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Hello All;
Maybe its just me, but it appears that the subject of deportees is not that interesting for most crew, from a security and safety point of view, this amazes me.
In the recent past (12 months) there have been 2 very dangerous situations involving deportees.
The first, about 6/7 months ago, on a flight out of Germany. The deportee was allowed to use the toilet at the back, when he finished he had tied the two laces from his runers together and tried to choke the female crew member in the galley, but thankfuly was stopped by the guys escorting him
Secondly, about 6-8 weeks ago, a plane with deportees on board was forced to land in the Sudan having been taken over by the deportees
Maybe its just me, but it appears that the subject of deportees is not that interesting for most crew, from a security and safety point of view, this amazes me.
In the recent past (12 months) there have been 2 very dangerous situations involving deportees.
The first, about 6/7 months ago, on a flight out of Germany. The deportee was allowed to use the toilet at the back, when he finished he had tied the two laces from his runers together and tried to choke the female crew member in the galley, but thankfuly was stopped by the guys escorting him
Secondly, about 6-8 weeks ago, a plane with deportees on board was forced to land in the Sudan having been taken over by the deportees
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I have been on numerous flights to Lagos, Nigeria (as SLF) when deportees caused great disruption (SN, LH). Sometimes they were bundled off the aircraft but often they were left onboard to cause a very uncomfortable situation during the flight. Many of these people face summary punishment on arrival, especially if they have been deported for drug-related offenses, so that they have nothing much to lose by acting up.
One woman went absolutely ga-ga in Brussels while waiting for push-back, so that they took her off the flight. Then a couple of weeks later there was a news item about someone being smothered while being subdued that I think was the same person.
At least the flights I have been on have seen deportees escorted by a couple of big, grim-faced blokes who were obviously not fooling around. I cannot imagine allowing someone in this category onboard unescorted.
When I used to fly prisoners around the States they were fitted with handcuffs secured to a chain around their waist and a hobble chain fastened to both ankles, plus they were given so much Thorazine that they didn't know what was happening to them. I remember one big galoot who ended up parked in the doorway to an FBO like a rather large package, eyes rolled up, until one of the guards had to gently shift him from the spot. From the point of view of my personal safety that was the way I liked to see it done!
One woman went absolutely ga-ga in Brussels while waiting for push-back, so that they took her off the flight. Then a couple of weeks later there was a news item about someone being smothered while being subdued that I think was the same person.
At least the flights I have been on have seen deportees escorted by a couple of big, grim-faced blokes who were obviously not fooling around. I cannot imagine allowing someone in this category onboard unescorted.
When I used to fly prisoners around the States they were fitted with handcuffs secured to a chain around their waist and a hobble chain fastened to both ankles, plus they were given so much Thorazine that they didn't know what was happening to them. I remember one big galoot who ended up parked in the doorway to an FBO like a rather large package, eyes rolled up, until one of the guards had to gently shift him from the spot. From the point of view of my personal safety that was the way I liked to see it done!
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Hello,
During the Euro2004 Air Portugal flew some deported banned football fans and they were escorted by police officers during the flight. Some of these fans were violent.
Regards,
Cpt Efis
During the Euro2004 Air Portugal flew some deported banned football fans and they were escorted by police officers during the flight. Some of these fans were violent.
Regards,
Cpt Efis
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I had the pleasure of taking two deportees back to the Democratic (?) Republic of the Congo shortly after 9/11 they were both being kicked out of US jails I guess because the Justice department figured the cost of the $95,000 charter was cheaper than keeping them in Jail.
We found out that one had held up a liqour store and the other, who was a child molester, had attacked his guard on a previous deportation attempt using the airlines, and would most likely be dragged off and killed upon his return, which really made me feel good about taking the trip.
Anyway, we set of from Dallas with the two prisoners, an INS agent and four ex-Navy Seals for security.
The prisoners were made to wear adult diapers under their jumpsuits and were injected with sedatives and then handcuffed with zip ties, this after having every body cavity searched.
The 'Seals were not allowed to carry guns, but did have those telescoping night sticks.
While stopping in Abidjan for fuel the child molester asked if he could use our sat phone to make a call, the guards decided to give him a break as he had been behaving himself and let him make the call to a relative in Kinshasa.
We reached Kinshasa in the middle of the night and the scene got ugly, the aircraft was surrounded by serious looking locals toting guns. I decided that the best thing to do was stand next to the US Consulate Rep, figuring he might have some protection if things took a turn for the worse.
It seems that the phone call made by the child molester had some affect as his relatives were able to bribe the local police and he was able to get away.
After being relieved of most of our US currency we were refueled and got out the hell out.
We found out that one had held up a liqour store and the other, who was a child molester, had attacked his guard on a previous deportation attempt using the airlines, and would most likely be dragged off and killed upon his return, which really made me feel good about taking the trip.
Anyway, we set of from Dallas with the two prisoners, an INS agent and four ex-Navy Seals for security.
The prisoners were made to wear adult diapers under their jumpsuits and were injected with sedatives and then handcuffed with zip ties, this after having every body cavity searched.
The 'Seals were not allowed to carry guns, but did have those telescoping night sticks.
While stopping in Abidjan for fuel the child molester asked if he could use our sat phone to make a call, the guards decided to give him a break as he had been behaving himself and let him make the call to a relative in Kinshasa.
We reached Kinshasa in the middle of the night and the scene got ugly, the aircraft was surrounded by serious looking locals toting guns. I decided that the best thing to do was stand next to the US Consulate Rep, figuring he might have some protection if things took a turn for the worse.
It seems that the phone call made by the child molester had some affect as his relatives were able to bribe the local police and he was able to get away.
After being relieved of most of our US currency we were refueled and got out the hell out.
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I don't have this problem...
I only fly domestic routes as a pilot on a corporate shuttle service, somewhat akin to a regional airline operation. We would never have to take deportees or prisoners anywhere.
I did have a little bit of trouble with stroppy passengers on a previous operation. I particularly remember this surly young man who wanted to take a seat we had reserved for a man with a bad leg. The young man told me that 'This is my country,' and that, 'You can't tell me what to do!'
I wanted to tell him that 'This is my aircraft and I can tell you what to do, since I am in charge here,' but I just got the ramp agent to sort him out instead. Two black men arguing instead of one black man and one white man. I just waited until things were sorted out to my satisfaction and then got on with the flight. I lost a bit of face but that was the price I had to pay. If I had insisted absolutely on my rights as the Captain then we would have had a half-hour session of jaw-jaw with no one going anywhere, followed by my having to fly with frazzled nerves.
The best advice I can give is based on a simple fact: When you are on the ramp with the doors closed, you, the Captain, are in charge of what goes on aboard your aircraft. If a door is open then the civil authorities are in charge of what goes on. So, if you hit some trouble that looks as if it might be hard to handle, open a door and let the cops handle it.
I did have a little bit of trouble with stroppy passengers on a previous operation. I particularly remember this surly young man who wanted to take a seat we had reserved for a man with a bad leg. The young man told me that 'This is my country,' and that, 'You can't tell me what to do!'
I wanted to tell him that 'This is my aircraft and I can tell you what to do, since I am in charge here,' but I just got the ramp agent to sort him out instead. Two black men arguing instead of one black man and one white man. I just waited until things were sorted out to my satisfaction and then got on with the flight. I lost a bit of face but that was the price I had to pay. If I had insisted absolutely on my rights as the Captain then we would have had a half-hour session of jaw-jaw with no one going anywhere, followed by my having to fly with frazzled nerves.
The best advice I can give is based on a simple fact: When you are on the ramp with the doors closed, you, the Captain, are in charge of what goes on aboard your aircraft. If a door is open then the civil authorities are in charge of what goes on. So, if you hit some trouble that looks as if it might be hard to handle, open a door and let the cops handle it.
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When you are on the ramp with the doors closed, you, the Captain, are in charge of what goes on aboard your aircraft. If a door is open then the civil authorities are in charge of what goes on.
In the case you described it was a wise decision. It will probably work in other cases as well, BUT.
As soon as somebody enters your airplane with the intent of flying, his safety is your responsibility. In other words, when the boarding starts, your responsibility starts.
You can call in the police to help you out, but it`s your responsibility.
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Astra Driver;
Interesting story, nice to see they were escorted. However, if for example, you were asked (while flying a commercial pax carrying flight) to carry these guys un-escorted..would you..?? Bearing in mind, that you would probably not know their history
Chuks;
Are you aware, that the UK and Irish governments have chartered Business jets to deport illegals previously. I know that these have been escorted, but everyday, people refused entry at airports all over Europe are put on commercial flights by Immigration officials who know little or nothing about the history(good or bad) about these people
Interesting story, nice to see they were escorted. However, if for example, you were asked (while flying a commercial pax carrying flight) to carry these guys un-escorted..would you..?? Bearing in mind, that you would probably not know their history
Chuks;
Are you aware, that the UK and Irish governments have chartered Business jets to deport illegals previously. I know that these have been escorted, but everyday, people refused entry at airports all over Europe are put on commercial flights by Immigration officials who know little or nothing about the history(good or bad) about these people
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Flame,
We carry tens of 1000's each year, not uncommon to see 200-300 of them climbing up the stairs from police buses. Generally they are economic refugees, came to find their fortune, got caught and get a one way plane ride home.
With all due respect to the deportees, it would be so nice if they were given access to shower facilities prior to getting on the flight
Mutt.
We carry tens of 1000's each year, not uncommon to see 200-300 of them climbing up the stairs from police buses. Generally they are economic refugees, came to find their fortune, got caught and get a one way plane ride home.
With all due respect to the deportees, it would be so nice if they were given access to shower facilities prior to getting on the flight
Mutt.
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About 6-7 weeks ago a deportivo assaulted the Captain and F/O with an axe on a Norwegian DO228 scheduled service.
Both pilots severly wounded and aircraft out of control on approach, managed to recover very close to ground.
Both pilots severly wounded and aircraft out of control on approach, managed to recover very close to ground.
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hello Flame,the story was on pprune before and here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthr...hreadid=146570
you are very insistent in this information?I am curious why that is.Like Chuck,I have flown many deportees back to Africa.Some of them so afraid to go back that they would do anything to stay where they are.This can turn very ugle even when they are Accomapnied Deportees.A whole cabin full of passengers can easily take the side of the handcuffed shouting deportees and there is not much even 2 big escorts can do for the safety.
So it really is best to off load them at the first sign of trouble on the fround.Sadly we know then that our colleagues on the next flight will not be told about their earlier refusal and will just get the deportees shoved on board.Poor hosties no match for a bunch of strong desperate Africans.
No we don't know anythong more than what the police people tell us and that is always as little as they think they can get away with
you are very insistent in this information?I am curious why that is.Like Chuck,I have flown many deportees back to Africa.Some of them so afraid to go back that they would do anything to stay where they are.This can turn very ugle even when they are Accomapnied Deportees.A whole cabin full of passengers can easily take the side of the handcuffed shouting deportees and there is not much even 2 big escorts can do for the safety.
So it really is best to off load them at the first sign of trouble on the fround.Sadly we know then that our colleagues on the next flight will not be told about their earlier refusal and will just get the deportees shoved on board.Poor hosties no match for a bunch of strong desperate Africans.
No we don't know anythong more than what the police people tell us and that is always as little as they think they can get away with
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Shorty Final;
Yes I am insistant..for a reason, it is my belief..that the current situation where Deportees/Inadmissables are put on flights most times unescorted is a situation asking for serious trouble.
When will flight crews demand to know as much as the immigration people before they take unescorted people on board, surely it should be up to every captain together with his company to decide who should be escorted or not.
A lot of these people are desperate to not be returned to their countries and have the potential to cause all manner of trouble while being escorted or not
I really hope that we will not wait to change this situation after something disastrous happens inflight
Yes I am insistant..for a reason, it is my belief..that the current situation where Deportees/Inadmissables are put on flights most times unescorted is a situation asking for serious trouble.
When will flight crews demand to know as much as the immigration people before they take unescorted people on board, surely it should be up to every captain together with his company to decide who should be escorted or not.
A lot of these people are desperate to not be returned to their countries and have the potential to cause all manner of trouble while being escorted or not
I really hope that we will not wait to change this situation after something disastrous happens inflight
