request assistance....
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 27
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From: MVD
request assistance....
While on duty as a F/O’s B757-767, on last 12th August 04, I’ve been involved in the most degradable event ever. During the normal cockpit preparation duties, for the return to base of a charter flight from the Caribbean, we have informed that due to a delay in the passengers pick up at their hotels the time expected to departure would be of three hours more. The cabin crew had been around ten hours on duty and summing up the hours needed to end the flight they would exceed the time limit according to our legislation. Having noticed this and I informed the captain, and chief about the matter. At this point de captain declares that he will apply the increase allowed by law of 20% the time of duty to continue the flight. Having told him that I am not sure and would rather look it up in the manuals, he says that “his word is final and there’s nothing to review”, as I insist on making sure it’s the correct decision, he started to yell and insult me. In order to avoid arguing I decide to retire from the cockpit, while he goes on screaming: ”I’m the captain and you are not to question me”. Finally he calls me back into the cockpit, seemingly to discuss in a more civilized manner, but as soon as I went in he grips my neck and tries to beat my face, since he is taller and quite stronger than me, it was a struggle to get him off even with the help of the other pilot in the cockpit.
I was instructed to remain seated in the passenger cabin from take off until landing, out of my functions aboard. Never during the entire flight, has the captain called me in to discuss the event.
Once at home and having meditated the matter for a day, I’ve decided to inform my fleet chief about what happened on that flight, and having not heard from him in 24 hours I decided to send a written report to the local Aviation Authority.
The captain mentioned is the number five in seniority in the company, and has a long history of similar incidents to the one occurred with me, however there have not been any previous reports about it. In my case, I have never been involved in such a situation before.
Since then, the captain and I have been grounded until the Investigative Board reaches a resolution. The Capitan is very well connected and the current Board consists of: a Security Officer, who is his brother in law, and his long time mates of promotion: the Chief Pilot, the Fleet Pilot and the Operations Manager.
That complicates things since impartiality is not an option, although I believe to have acted with correction and there’s the fact that no CRM tools were applied in this case. Still, I feel that the company and I are standing on opposite sides.
Does anybody know a case similar to this one??? I would appreciate any information or advise and thank you all very much for your attention.
Best regards,
Jorge L. Vázquez
I was instructed to remain seated in the passenger cabin from take off until landing, out of my functions aboard. Never during the entire flight, has the captain called me in to discuss the event.
Once at home and having meditated the matter for a day, I’ve decided to inform my fleet chief about what happened on that flight, and having not heard from him in 24 hours I decided to send a written report to the local Aviation Authority.
The captain mentioned is the number five in seniority in the company, and has a long history of similar incidents to the one occurred with me, however there have not been any previous reports about it. In my case, I have never been involved in such a situation before.
Since then, the captain and I have been grounded until the Investigative Board reaches a resolution. The Capitan is very well connected and the current Board consists of: a Security Officer, who is his brother in law, and his long time mates of promotion: the Chief Pilot, the Fleet Pilot and the Operations Manager.
That complicates things since impartiality is not an option, although I believe to have acted with correction and there’s the fact that no CRM tools were applied in this case. Still, I feel that the company and I are standing on opposite sides.
Does anybody know a case similar to this one??? I would appreciate any information or advise and thank you all very much for your attention.
Best regards,
Jorge L. Vázquez
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 18,575
Likes: 4
From: UK
Jorge - comment overall is best left to the company enquiry. I think you have acted correctly in reporting the matter as you have. Not a pleasant experience.
I assume you have had time to read the 'rules' on Captain's Discretion'? In the UK, the Captain has the authority to extend duty time within the UK limits. It may or may not be the same in your area. In that case he would have been correct in exercising his sole authority to make the decision, having taken into account the fitness of the crew to operate the extended duty. I assume the 20% extension is what your rules lay down?
The part which is of concern is, as you say, the manner in which your Captain acted. This would appear to need addressing by the company. If you are caught in a company 'old boys' club' then there is not much you can do. If you are a member of a pilots' association, speak to them.
Out of interest, what was your position/role on the flight deck? If 3 crew are required for the operation then there is another potential problem in what you describe as happening. What was the response of the other co-pilot and was he/she in a fit state to operate following those events you describe?
I assume you have had time to read the 'rules' on Captain's Discretion'? In the UK, the Captain has the authority to extend duty time within the UK limits. It may or may not be the same in your area. In that case he would have been correct in exercising his sole authority to make the decision, having taken into account the fitness of the crew to operate the extended duty. I assume the 20% extension is what your rules lay down?
The part which is of concern is, as you say, the manner in which your Captain acted. This would appear to need addressing by the company. If you are caught in a company 'old boys' club' then there is not much you can do. If you are a member of a pilots' association, speak to them.
Out of interest, what was your position/role on the flight deck? If 3 crew are required for the operation then there is another potential problem in what you describe as happening. What was the response of the other co-pilot and was he/she in a fit state to operate following those events you describe?
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 870
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From: UK
Regardless of the result of the company enquiry, in the UK at least you would have the option of reporting the captain to the police for common assault. It would appear from your reporting of the incident that the other crew member who came to your aid may be caled on as a reliable witness.
Wouldn't help your position in regard to the incident, but should a 'stitch up' take place over the enquiry, which you appear to be worried will be the case, it may well provide some element of justice against your crazy colleague.
I have colleagues in dispatch who have been assaulted by captains of overseas aircarft (I'm sure most crews would like to assault their dispatcher from time to time), but this activity has always been frowned on severely and reported as appropriate, with the company refusing to provide any further services to that aircraft.
Wouldn't help your position in regard to the incident, but should a 'stitch up' take place over the enquiry, which you appear to be worried will be the case, it may well provide some element of justice against your crazy colleague.
I have colleagues in dispatch who have been assaulted by captains of overseas aircarft (I'm sure most crews would like to assault their dispatcher from time to time), but this activity has always been frowned on severely and reported as appropriate, with the company refusing to provide any further services to that aircraft.
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 719
Likes: 0
From: California USA
Some very quick observations:
1. The subject of the encounter (rules/regs governing extending the duty day), although interesting, does not bear on this at all;
2. Regardless of right or wrong on the rules, the verbal outbursts were unprofessional;
3. As soon as he touched you his behavior transitioned from "unprofessional" to "criminal."
There is simply nothing, short of self-defense or the physical defense of the aircraft/crew/pax/others that would justify one crew member grabbing another crew member by the throat. Although laws differ, nation to nation, and I cannot begin to speak intelligently to the laws of the jurisdiction in which this occurred, in the US the mere touch of the captain upon your throat would consistute battery. This guy is dangerous. If he tends to act out his agression, he's in the wrong line of work.
I know I sound like I'm giving legal advice here. Trust me, I am not. I've just provided my impressions, based upon the info you supplied. In short, my opinion is that the captain's behavior was just wrong.
1. The subject of the encounter (rules/regs governing extending the duty day), although interesting, does not bear on this at all;
2. Regardless of right or wrong on the rules, the verbal outbursts were unprofessional;
3. As soon as he touched you his behavior transitioned from "unprofessional" to "criminal."
There is simply nothing, short of self-defense or the physical defense of the aircraft/crew/pax/others that would justify one crew member grabbing another crew member by the throat. Although laws differ, nation to nation, and I cannot begin to speak intelligently to the laws of the jurisdiction in which this occurred, in the US the mere touch of the captain upon your throat would consistute battery. This guy is dangerous. If he tends to act out his agression, he's in the wrong line of work.
I know I sound like I'm giving legal advice here. Trust me, I am not. I've just provided my impressions, based upon the info you supplied. In short, my opinion is that the captain's behavior was just wrong.
Joined: Sep 1998
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
From: The best in the world... of course!!!
Amazing report:
Lot’s of advice, but the most important question was not done:
Was the captain mentally fit to exercise his duties on this flight?
Guess not!
Therefore, this flight it was illegal in any countries law.
If the captains it was so emotionally affected and unstable after being challenged by his F/O, then he it was not fit to fly.
Lot’s of advice, but the most important question was not done:
Was the captain mentally fit to exercise his duties on this flight?
Guess not!
Therefore, this flight it was illegal in any countries law.
If the captains it was so emotionally affected and unstable after being challenged by his F/O, then he it was not fit to fly.
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
From: On the Coast
A serious situation.
To state the obvious, that is precisely one of the duties of a good F.O. and it appears that your actions were perfectly in order. His actions are another matter altogether. I find it worrying that any captain would react to this kind of situation in such an extreme manner and I concur with your decision to submit a report. Further to this, I agree with witchdoctor that this is also a matter for the police.
It takes a brave person to make a stand in the face of seniority and "connections" but if, as you say, this is not the first incident of its kind, then it is time someone made the call before serious injuries occur.
while he goes on screaming: ”I’m the captain and you are not to question me”.
It takes a brave person to make a stand in the face of seniority and "connections" but if, as you say, this is not the first incident of its kind, then it is time someone made the call before serious injuries occur.
