Auto pilot use
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411A, I concur totally with my colleague Blue Eagle.
Like it or not, CRM is with us. If you can't follow its precepts and principles, you have no place on a modern flight deck. And like it or not, you will be polite to all other users - including the moderators - on this forum. If you are incapable of that, I will ban you from this forum permanently.
Do I make myself clear?
Like it or not, CRM is with us. If you can't follow its precepts and principles, you have no place on a modern flight deck. And like it or not, you will be polite to all other users - including the moderators - on this forum. If you are incapable of that, I will ban you from this forum permanently.
Do I make myself clear?
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Captain Stable, Blue Eagle--
Personally do fully appreciate that the more modern types (ie; no Flight Engineer) have a high degree of automation, however I can not help to wonder just what would be the end result if, for example, a junior First Officer was to be operating a flight that had the autopilot(s) unserviceable (either fail enroute or dispatched under MEL), and the Captain was to become totally incapacitated.
Under these circumstances (yes I know an unlikely event),
would not said First Officer be at a terrible disadvantage if he/she had not developed (and kept current) reasonable hand-flying skills?
A comment last year on these forums from a younger First Officer having to hand fly a 767 back from the Med at night with autopilots unserviceable..."a nightmare really..." sure did not inspire a lot of confidence from this end.
Yes, CRM is very useful, especially on the two crew types, but in the situation I have outlined, do you not think that a high degree of hand flying skill is absolutely required?
Personally do fully appreciate that the more modern types (ie; no Flight Engineer) have a high degree of automation, however I can not help to wonder just what would be the end result if, for example, a junior First Officer was to be operating a flight that had the autopilot(s) unserviceable (either fail enroute or dispatched under MEL), and the Captain was to become totally incapacitated.
Under these circumstances (yes I know an unlikely event),
would not said First Officer be at a terrible disadvantage if he/she had not developed (and kept current) reasonable hand-flying skills?
A comment last year on these forums from a younger First Officer having to hand fly a 767 back from the Med at night with autopilots unserviceable..."a nightmare really..." sure did not inspire a lot of confidence from this end.
Yes, CRM is very useful, especially on the two crew types, but in the situation I have outlined, do you not think that a high degree of hand flying skill is absolutely required?
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Yes 411A I agree, under the circumstances you describe the F/O's hand flying skills will be required to be up to standard, I think that is what many of us have been saying here, up to standard - Yes but not at the expense of a comprehensive knowledge of the automation available and not to be practised if it will erode any safety margins.
Flying back to the UK in B767 from the Med without autopilot should not present any problems at all. Remember getting airborne from Manila once, after about one hour out we lost our autopilots and continued to Bahrain, (10 hours), without them, no problem, just very tiring and not as smooth as autopilots would have been.
Flying back to the UK in B767 from the Med without autopilot should not present any problems at all. Remember getting airborne from Manila once, after about one hour out we lost our autopilots and continued to Bahrain, (10 hours), without them, no problem, just very tiring and not as smooth as autopilots would have been.
Jurassic Park
Thank goodness the world has moved on from the days when all pilots had to be capable of delivering "The right stuff" 24/7 (or at least rather die than admit otherwise). Sad to see some pterodactyls still roam the skies
The latest iteration of human factors (CRM) is as close as I have seen to defining that elusive level of common sense that some of us call airmanship.
Pilots need to :
a) Anticipate and manage threats to the operation.
b) Manage crew errors. In the past all training was geared to minimising errors - with little attention being paid to the fact that if humans are involved, errors WILL occur.
Clearly technical proficiency (stick and rudder skills) remain very important. However, "optimal" use of resources - such as a sophisticated autopilot allows maximum brain capacity to be dedicated to threat management.
Simply put, read the crash comics and consider the likely threat levels. (e.g. Non - precision approach, night, bad weather, complex arrival / departure, busy CTA, tired crew etc).
In high threat environments such as the above - use all available resources to free up your brain so that you can actively manage the situation.
In low threat environments - practice your hand flying. (The simulator is the ultimate in "low threat" environments).
Be safe
PJ88
The latest iteration of human factors (CRM) is as close as I have seen to defining that elusive level of common sense that some of us call airmanship.
Pilots need to :
a) Anticipate and manage threats to the operation.
b) Manage crew errors. In the past all training was geared to minimising errors - with little attention being paid to the fact that if humans are involved, errors WILL occur.
Clearly technical proficiency (stick and rudder skills) remain very important. However, "optimal" use of resources - such as a sophisticated autopilot allows maximum brain capacity to be dedicated to threat management.
Simply put, read the crash comics and consider the likely threat levels. (e.g. Non - precision approach, night, bad weather, complex arrival / departure, busy CTA, tired crew etc).
In high threat environments such as the above - use all available resources to free up your brain so that you can actively manage the situation.
In low threat environments - practice your hand flying. (The simulator is the ultimate in "low threat" environments).
Be safe
PJ88
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411A, nobody has ever said that you should allow handflying skills to degrade. In fact, I have been at pains to point out that we should keep ALL our skills up to date and proficient.
You are perfectly at liberty to disagree with people here. But I will not permit you to refer to the offerings of people with whom you disagree as either nonsense (please not the spelling) or as BS.
And if you are unable to get some input as to how the FO likes you doing things that are not immediately necessary and do, however, you dress it up, erode to a certain degree the margins of safety, you have no right to call yourself a professional pilot.
CRM is all about keeping all the members of the team in the loop. It is about ensuring you use all resources possible to bring the flight to a safe and expeditious conclusion. It is not about you "doing it this way because that's the way I've always done it and I've never had an accident yet".
Like it or not, if you give your FO the feeling that he has no say whatsoever is how the flight is conducted, you WILL cut yourself off from an essential source of information and assistance if it all goes pear-shaped. This is NOT good CRM. Time to learn that lesson. If you can't learn it, then time to retire.
I am still waiting for your confirmation that you understand the rules of how this forum operate.
You are perfectly at liberty to disagree with people here. But I will not permit you to refer to the offerings of people with whom you disagree as either nonsense (please not the spelling) or as BS.
And if you are unable to get some input as to how the FO likes you doing things that are not immediately necessary and do, however, you dress it up, erode to a certain degree the margins of safety, you have no right to call yourself a professional pilot.
CRM is all about keeping all the members of the team in the loop. It is about ensuring you use all resources possible to bring the flight to a safe and expeditious conclusion. It is not about you "doing it this way because that's the way I've always done it and I've never had an accident yet".
Like it or not, if you give your FO the feeling that he has no say whatsoever is how the flight is conducted, you WILL cut yourself off from an essential source of information and assistance if it all goes pear-shaped. This is NOT good CRM. Time to learn that lesson. If you can't learn it, then time to retire.
I am still waiting for your confirmation that you understand the rules of how this forum operate.
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My, what a can of worms has been opened!
I personally believe in the old `maximise the use of the automatics' as featured in many checklists (normally the nasty ones with the bold type and coloured edges).
HOWEVER, when I left training college with the ink drying on my shiny new IR, I fondly imagined I had seen the last of NDB approaches and the like outside renewal time.
Wrong.
Throughout the next 25 odd years flying medium to large airliners, I frequently found myself doing non-precision approaches of all kinds. An ILS to a minimums night visual circling approach in a 747 is something that will test your hand flying currency quite effectively. For this reason I think it essential to practice hand flying whenever possible (both Captain and F/O...possibly even more important for the F/O). I would however be unlikely to do much in places like LHR or LAX, just because of the workload and traffic density. However a visual/manual approach into a place like Bali or Cairns is just a sheer delight, which of course is something not to be forgotten....enjoyment!
On the subject of visuals, often the autopilot/FD will actually be a major hinderance and workload generator. This because a well flown visual (I may not have flown many well myself, but Ive seen a lot!) requires continual smooth changes in ROD, Pitch and Bank Angle. The A/P and FD will certainly not give the roll commands desired (wings level or rate 1 is all you'll get), and the resulting continual reprogramming and adjustments make for a uncomfortable ride and high workload. This is compounded if the PF elects to do a visual with the FD still engaged, as the choice is either ignore it, which is not good practice, or load up the PNF with continual small adjustments,which all have to be called for, verified, etc. Also,of course the same problems apply as for the A/P in terms of available outputs.
I was taught, and then passed on to my students, that if the autopilot is taken out to do a visual, then ditch the F/D as well, for it is far more trouble than it's worth and is often working against you. If your manuals and A/C systems allow it, give it a try. I think you'll find it frees up the PNF a lot which is good, because if anything the monitoring requirements on this sort of approach are even higher than normal.
So that's my $0.02, nice to see that not all the dinosaurs are dead
Most importantly remember it is possible and highly desirable to enjoy this profession, it makes up for the hopefully rare trip with the grumpy old dinosaurs!
Right Airfield, Right Way Up, and if it can be used again with minimal work, who can complain!!
PS Agree 100% with the earlier comments re. Flight Engineers, Had my @rse saved many times by them, and miss them terribly. God Bless these Fine Gentlemen
I personally believe in the old `maximise the use of the automatics' as featured in many checklists (normally the nasty ones with the bold type and coloured edges).
HOWEVER, when I left training college with the ink drying on my shiny new IR, I fondly imagined I had seen the last of NDB approaches and the like outside renewal time.
Wrong.
Throughout the next 25 odd years flying medium to large airliners, I frequently found myself doing non-precision approaches of all kinds. An ILS to a minimums night visual circling approach in a 747 is something that will test your hand flying currency quite effectively. For this reason I think it essential to practice hand flying whenever possible (both Captain and F/O...possibly even more important for the F/O). I would however be unlikely to do much in places like LHR or LAX, just because of the workload and traffic density. However a visual/manual approach into a place like Bali or Cairns is just a sheer delight, which of course is something not to be forgotten....enjoyment!
On the subject of visuals, often the autopilot/FD will actually be a major hinderance and workload generator. This because a well flown visual (I may not have flown many well myself, but Ive seen a lot!) requires continual smooth changes in ROD, Pitch and Bank Angle. The A/P and FD will certainly not give the roll commands desired (wings level or rate 1 is all you'll get), and the resulting continual reprogramming and adjustments make for a uncomfortable ride and high workload. This is compounded if the PF elects to do a visual with the FD still engaged, as the choice is either ignore it, which is not good practice, or load up the PNF with continual small adjustments,which all have to be called for, verified, etc. Also,of course the same problems apply as for the A/P in terms of available outputs.
I was taught, and then passed on to my students, that if the autopilot is taken out to do a visual, then ditch the F/D as well, for it is far more trouble than it's worth and is often working against you. If your manuals and A/C systems allow it, give it a try. I think you'll find it frees up the PNF a lot which is good, because if anything the monitoring requirements on this sort of approach are even higher than normal.
So that's my $0.02, nice to see that not all the dinosaurs are dead
Most importantly remember it is possible and highly desirable to enjoy this profession, it makes up for the hopefully rare trip with the grumpy old dinosaurs!Right Airfield, Right Way Up, and if it can be used again with minimal work, who can complain!!
PS Agree 100% with the earlier comments re. Flight Engineers, Had my @rse saved many times by them, and miss them terribly. God Bless these Fine Gentlemen
Automation and Hand Flying
I have been watching this forum for some time with avid interest. It appears to me that 411A appears to be from the old school type of cockpit, where Captain God ruled all and did not have to ask permission from that pimply first officer as he had over double his experience in aviaiton.
Fortunatley, this type of mentatlity is becoming extinct however on occasion we still come in contact with the Captain God syndrome in our travels.
I agree whole heartedly with Blue Eagle, Hand flying experience should be maintained, but not at busy airports like JFK or LHR. This type of tally-ho attitude will only create more problems. There are three autopilots in these type of machines. NOT because they look prettier in threes, but for the safety issue. They were designed to know the machine better than humans ever possibly could. Get your hand flying experience, but get it in the sim or in perfect weather. Its not rocket science, but a choice of putting the safety of the pax who have entrusted their lives to you before the attitude of 'I'll fly it because I like a challenge'. If you like a challenge, do it in your own time, in the sim, when you're not going to kill anyone.
Cheers
Fortunatley, this type of mentatlity is becoming extinct however on occasion we still come in contact with the Captain God syndrome in our travels.
I agree whole heartedly with Blue Eagle, Hand flying experience should be maintained, but not at busy airports like JFK or LHR. This type of tally-ho attitude will only create more problems. There are three autopilots in these type of machines. NOT because they look prettier in threes, but for the safety issue. They were designed to know the machine better than humans ever possibly could. Get your hand flying experience, but get it in the sim or in perfect weather. Its not rocket science, but a choice of putting the safety of the pax who have entrusted their lives to you before the attitude of 'I'll fly it because I like a challenge'. If you like a challenge, do it in your own time, in the sim, when you're not going to kill anyone.
Cheers
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Capt'n Stable,
Fully understand your input, but then again remember a private message you sent sometime back indicating that my input was...a prime example of CRM, not.
Been around a very long time and can positively say that CRM will not land the aeroplane when it does indeed go pear shaped, and the junior First Officer, faced with a very challanging situation, is up to his behind in alligators (failed systems, incapacitated Captain...etc)...it is ONLY positive, concise training from senior guys, supported my management who understand that said training is very important.
Automatics are fine in the normal flow of operations, but practiced hand flying is essential for safety.
Agree...or not?
Fully understand your input, but then again remember a private message you sent sometime back indicating that my input was...a prime example of CRM, not.
Been around a very long time and can positively say that CRM will not land the aeroplane when it does indeed go pear shaped, and the junior First Officer, faced with a very challanging situation, is up to his behind in alligators (failed systems, incapacitated Captain...etc)...it is ONLY positive, concise training from senior guys, supported my management who understand that said training is very important.
Automatics are fine in the normal flow of operations, but practiced hand flying is essential for safety.
Agree...or not?
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I have been reading this thread from the day it started and apart from some stupid comments it has been very interesting, informative and very educational for those of us who dont drive jets.
I would like to know what all your comments are on the following situation. I will firstly add that the crews that fly these aircraft are very well thought off in the industry with an extremly good safety record (almost enviable).
Two pilot crew with no AP installed, flight directors only, the aircraft are just off new with some very modern avionics and pretty quick.
splat
I would like to know what all your comments are on the following situation. I will firstly add that the crews that fly these aircraft are very well thought off in the industry with an extremly good safety record (almost enviable).
Two pilot crew with no AP installed, flight directors only, the aircraft are just off new with some very modern avionics and pretty quick.
splat
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Captain Stable,Blue Eagle,
Indeed it is you that have lost the plot!Instead of making threats to ban a contributor,why dont you argue the point.Put that in your CRM pipe and smoke it.
411 is totally correct.I didnt hear him advocating manual flying without FD's when you're running an abnormal checklist.Although you may well have to!And if you're the skipper,you'll probably be wanting to manage the abnormal situation,which leaves the First Officer flying the thing.So he'd better know how to fly.Which is why this side of the pond,we dont have any 250 hr guys in the right seat of a jet airliner(or turboprop for that matter)!!!!
CRM is just fine,but it has its place.Its a Captains aircraft,and dont forget that.
Seems like an Atlantic divide here.
DO YOU MIND if I log off now?Over and out.
BTW,Capt Stable,you chose to correct 411 for a minor spelling error and then left the 'e' off 'note'.Good CRM.Do as I say,not as I do.
Indeed it is you that have lost the plot!Instead of making threats to ban a contributor,why dont you argue the point.Put that in your CRM pipe and smoke it.
411 is totally correct.I didnt hear him advocating manual flying without FD's when you're running an abnormal checklist.Although you may well have to!And if you're the skipper,you'll probably be wanting to manage the abnormal situation,which leaves the First Officer flying the thing.So he'd better know how to fly.Which is why this side of the pond,we dont have any 250 hr guys in the right seat of a jet airliner(or turboprop for that matter)!!!!
CRM is just fine,but it has its place.Its a Captains aircraft,and dont forget that.
Seems like an Atlantic divide here.
DO YOU MIND if I log off now?Over and out.
BTW,Capt Stable,you chose to correct 411 for a minor spelling error and then left the 'e' off 'note'.Good CRM.Do as I say,not as I do.
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Rananim, my argument is not with 411A's points re Autopilot use. That is a matter of interpretation, opinion, and, yes, some Atlantic Divide.
Like it or not, this is a UK-based website. Over here, CRM has many times proved its worth. Over here, the Captain is not necessarily God. We accept that he is human, as liable to make mistakes as the next human being and, therefore, when things go wrong, is in need of all the assistance he can get.
Of course it is his aircraft, and the decisions are his to make. Simple common sense dictates that he gets all the input he can before making that decision (time permitting) and he also asks for any suggestions that might not have occurred to him. Having done so, he makes his decision and communicates it to anyone who needs to know.
In order for this to work, he needs to ensure that a good professional atmosphere is maintained at all times. Acting as if "This is the Cockpit, you are the Resource and I am the Management" will not get the job done. Many people have tried - quite a few have died. Some survived, and therein lies the problem of the aviation dinosaurs.
Finally, as I pointed out above, I will not tolerate personal abuse being thrown at anyone here, nor use of terms such as "You have lost the plot". Any contributor who cannot remain within the terms of this forum will be banned.
I hope this is clear enough.
Like it or not, this is a UK-based website. Over here, CRM has many times proved its worth. Over here, the Captain is not necessarily God. We accept that he is human, as liable to make mistakes as the next human being and, therefore, when things go wrong, is in need of all the assistance he can get.
Of course it is his aircraft, and the decisions are his to make. Simple common sense dictates that he gets all the input he can before making that decision (time permitting) and he also asks for any suggestions that might not have occurred to him. Having done so, he makes his decision and communicates it to anyone who needs to know.
In order for this to work, he needs to ensure that a good professional atmosphere is maintained at all times. Acting as if "This is the Cockpit, you are the Resource and I am the Management" will not get the job done. Many people have tried - quite a few have died. Some survived, and therein lies the problem of the aviation dinosaurs.
Finally, as I pointed out above, I will not tolerate personal abuse being thrown at anyone here, nor use of terms such as "You have lost the plot". Any contributor who cannot remain within the terms of this forum will be banned.
I hope this is clear enough.
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All I can say is I'm glad I don't have to share your cockpit 411A...
Totally agree with Captain Stable; here in the UK we (on the whole) firmly believe in CRM as an effective tool for crew interaction.
CRM is there for the benefit of all concerned. If you're going to be so disparaging about CRM then why not just throw all SOPs out the window at the same time and fly the a/c to the deck all on your own???
As a relatively junior FO (who, for the record, regularly hand-flies the a/c) I find it quite worrying that this kind of attitude still prevails.
Getting back to the point, I'll always use common sense in judging if and when it is appropriate to ask the skipper if they mind me hand-flying... What are we trying to prove here??
Totally agree with Captain Stable; here in the UK we (on the whole) firmly believe in CRM as an effective tool for crew interaction.
CRM is there for the benefit of all concerned. If you're going to be so disparaging about CRM then why not just throw all SOPs out the window at the same time and fly the a/c to the deck all on your own???
As a relatively junior FO (who, for the record, regularly hand-flies the a/c) I find it quite worrying that this kind of attitude still prevails.
Getting back to the point, I'll always use common sense in judging if and when it is appropriate to ask the skipper if they mind me hand-flying... What are we trying to prove here??
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M.85
please dont get off topic, this is good stuff.
First of all lets try and stop making assumptions like "if the first officer has to take over..." This assumes that the first officer is a person who posseses less skill and knowledge than the captain when in fact in todays world of seniority list and bankruptsies the opposite is offten true. (CRM...never assume)
Now, if you are flying along, it does not matter where, and both pilots (for 411a, they can both figure it out by talking to each other CRM...communication) have assesed (CRM... assess) it would be safe to hand fly then by all means take out the auto-pilot and get some practice (CRM... action) Then all is going well and you are both managing the situation quite easily (CRM... manage) and something happens, does not matter what, both pilots should assess the situation and if it is decided it would be better to engage the auto-pilot then good judgment dictates that it should be re-engaged.
If we follow this basic way of doing things we should all get some practise hand flying and we should be able to run the auto-flight systems in the most demanding of situations.
As for the old school way of doing things I don't see too much wrong with it but the way things are done now is better and safer. Anyone who can't adjust to the new way of doing things IMHO would have problems ADJUSTING to some scenerio that develops in the cockpit that no one has ever even dreamed about.
Old way...good
New way...better
Like it or lump it.
crazy
please dont get off topic, this is good stuff.
First of all lets try and stop making assumptions like "if the first officer has to take over..." This assumes that the first officer is a person who posseses less skill and knowledge than the captain when in fact in todays world of seniority list and bankruptsies the opposite is offten true. (CRM...never assume)
Now, if you are flying along, it does not matter where, and both pilots (for 411a, they can both figure it out by talking to each other CRM...communication) have assesed (CRM... assess) it would be safe to hand fly then by all means take out the auto-pilot and get some practice (CRM... action) Then all is going well and you are both managing the situation quite easily (CRM... manage) and something happens, does not matter what, both pilots should assess the situation and if it is decided it would be better to engage the auto-pilot then good judgment dictates that it should be re-engaged.
If we follow this basic way of doing things we should all get some practise hand flying and we should be able to run the auto-flight systems in the most demanding of situations.
As for the old school way of doing things I don't see too much wrong with it but the way things are done now is better and safer. Anyone who can't adjust to the new way of doing things IMHO would have problems ADJUSTING to some scenerio that develops in the cockpit that no one has ever even dreamed about.
Old way...good
New way...better
Like it or lump it.
crazy
PPRuNe Handmaiden
When I flew the Dash 8 in Oz it was an SOP to ask the PNF if the PF could hand fly the approach. Reason? if the AP was out then the PNF had to set the hdg bugs and speed bugs etc. This could add a significant amount to their workload if already quite busy.
When doing circling app's, it was easier to disconnect the AP and hand fly it, using the vertical channel (cross hairs, not V bars) for height keeping.
Now in the UK I rarely use the AP because it either doesn't work or isn't fitted. I do use the FD but I watch it like a hawk because it has told lies before. Several times a month I'll do raw data approaches because it's good for the scan and I enjoy it. (night freighter Shed). Personally I find the FD a pain during NDB approaches I prefer to fly them raw data. If I had cross needles for the FD then I would just use the vertical channel so I don't go through the MDA.
CRM isn't about being polite, that's manners, CRM's about effective communication between all parties.
When doing circling app's, it was easier to disconnect the AP and hand fly it, using the vertical channel (cross hairs, not V bars) for height keeping.
Now in the UK I rarely use the AP because it either doesn't work or isn't fitted. I do use the FD but I watch it like a hawk because it has told lies before. Several times a month I'll do raw data approaches because it's good for the scan and I enjoy it. (night freighter Shed). Personally I find the FD a pain during NDB approaches I prefer to fly them raw data. If I had cross needles for the FD then I would just use the vertical channel so I don't go through the MDA.
CRM isn't about being polite, that's manners, CRM's about effective communication between all parties.
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Having flown without any A/P until my last Type rating, I was wondering if the "turning the knobs",making sure the A/Ps do the right thing,FMA scanning ...wasnt asking more effort from the pilot than merely flying the bird...
I understand high altitude flying requires the precision of AP due to basic aerodynamic laws(low density,stall speed margin...)but hand flying would keep you in the loop rather than merely operating the A/C..and becoming complecent due to the AP work.
M.85
I understand high altitude flying requires the precision of AP due to basic aerodynamic laws(low density,stall speed margin...)but hand flying would keep you in the loop rather than merely operating the A/C..and becoming complecent due to the AP work.
M.85
