If it's 0.02% then yeah, I reckon I would be just fine and dandy.

BA pilot arrested in ARN
 

It's generally recognised that 2 pints of beer drunk in the previous hour or two could put you over the UK breathalyser limit.
That would be the .08 quoted onthese threads. So if the reading
was .02 that would mean you have drunk a half pint of beer in the last hour or two. I doubt if this guy had been drinking a half pint at 0600 in the morning. Which means he had drunk more but earlier but the effect would have been the same as if he had had a half pint 2 hours before take off. Hand on heart everybody, would that amount at that distance impair anybody dangerously or at all? Keep your hand on your heart and tell me it couldn't never have been you ? Never been to a wedding the day before? Xmas? Your 30th, 40th or 50th birthday party and they called you in from standby the next day when they promised you're on last call? Not .02, surely not you!
If a limit of .02 applies to somebody who has available all the automatics in the world why should a limit of .08 apply to a lorry driver with 30 tons under his manual control in an environment where he is in uncontrolled (except subjectively) proximity to others similarily equipped? Not that that is really relevant, just an observation.
There is a deal of difference between drinking and dancing on the stage at 3am before an early report and this case.

eltel

I'm really not sure what your point is but if you are saying it is ok to fly under the influence of alcohol (which means any) then I'm sorry to tell you you are in the wrong profession and probably the cab of a lorry is where you should be.

There is no doubt that the 'British soil' argument is bogus. The Dutch police can - and do - board aircraft at random and breathalyse pilots. I am sure this is the same in Sweden. We do not have Diplomatic Immunity ... and neither should we. If this was the case, would, say, a Belgian truck full of dying asylum seekers be 'off limits' to the UK police? I think not - and would we be happy if an overseas crew were immune from our own laws?

The two issues of alcohol limits and rights of boarding are seperate - we all expect, and have no problem with, a ramp check by the DGAC in Paris or Nice, and similarly we expect free access by our own inspectors to non- UK aircraft here.

The issue we should be addressing is not the actual limit, but how accurate its measurement is and how fair the forensic legal process is thereafter. I believe it differs hugely from country to country.

I fail to see how we as a professional group can argue against an alcohol limit, but we should address an industry wide standard of due process which is just and has no frontiers.

WELL,
Reading all the comments, be it scientific to the Nth degree, or the various home spun philosophies, or the holier than thou brigade, I can see that a breathaliser should be part of any Piolts pre departure kit.

People quote the 12 hour rule and my earlier comment amount the amount 12 hours before was (perhaps!) an exageration but it is obvious from the comments that people have no idea whether 2 glasses of wine, 2 pints or 2 scotches 12 hour before will put them over the limit.
As has been pointed out we are not talking about someone falling over drunk but someone who is outside an arbitary limit ( and yes I know about all the scientific committees but it is still arbitary ! )
WE know we are exceeding the speed limit because we have a speedometer but in this case most of us have nothing to judge against.

YES I know the answer if for all pilots to be teetotal ! Perhaps it will soon be a requirement to get a CPL;) ;)

The great day will be when there's a fatigue meter you can check before the next sector to see if you will be up to the landing at the other end -- mind you if something fails it will get the adrenalin up and you will be temporarily unfatigued.

After my stint in undergraduate physics, I became thoroughly familiar with the statistical vagaries of various measuring devices, especially when it comes to declaring a reading to be zero -- t'ain't no such thing -- there's always a bit of something.

So what really is the Swedish 0,0 permille?

• 0,0499999 or less perhaps.
• I would not be surprised if 0,05 to 0,1499999 registers as 0,1

A conscientious designer of a forensic device would like to have an accuracy of at least two decimal points more than the display shows and to stand up against cross-examination in a court of law it would help if the reading is never a result of rounding up.

However many jurisdictions legislate/regulate/mandate that the reading shown by certain models by certain manufacturers is uncontraventable evidence:p

RBF
 

There was an AA pilot detained today (01/27)for "having been smelled" alcohol but mostly mint on his breath. He checked out at .004 but was not allowed to fly the route (ST Louis).

Pax were waiting for about 3 hours while this farce was taking place.

BTW. Pilot was charged and is jailed.

Hotel Charlie
 

Before you rip my head off, may I ask you to put on your glasses, and read my post one more time? I'm not saying he was drunk, am I? He MAY be in violation of Swedish rules. You sound like you are happy to report for work at 0.2 promille. 0.4 is the Norwegian limit, but it doesn't give me the RIGHT to report for duty with 0.4 promille. At least, thats the way I see it.
Alcohol will increase your perfomance. Yeah, lets all have 1/2 a pint before work?
:confused:

I may be wrong about my above posting, after reading the comments earlier. However, there is still one big misunderstanding regarding the differences between UK and Swedish law. 0.2 promille is the limit in both Sweden AND the UK. UK law states that a pilot will not have enough alcohol in his bloodstream to impair his ability to fly. JAR-OPS rules state that 0.2 promille is the limit above which would impair a pilot's ability to fly. As the UK CAA operates under JAR-OPS therefore 0.2 promille is the limit in the UK as well. The big difference between Scandanavia and the UK is Scandanavia's restriction on time limits between last drink and flying (with Scandanavia being much stricter). Nevertheless, 0.2 promille would land a pilot in trouble in the UK as well as Sweden. The difference is that the police cannot perform random blood tests in the UK.

Lazlo

Scando

I´m not biting Your head off, but I do not understand that you defend a system that makes hard working citizens into criminals. The man showed up for work, not drunk but again marginally above the theoretical 0.00%. Now he is a criminal, throw him in jail and fire his a..! There is no evidence that the lowering from 0.05% to the 0.00% driving limit has resulted in less people being killed on the road. It has on the other hand produced more money for the goverment (from fines) and more criminals. And so the politicians happy (scumbags)!
In norway the limit is 0.02% now as well! And no I do not accept anyone showing up for flt duty drunk!!

It never ceases to amaze me why contributors to this thread feel they are doing this industry a service by conducting these debates in the public forums. Having a look at some of the contributions , I get the impression that the very people your seem set on attacking , ie the media, probably have a look at every few hours to see if there's any paper-selling points emerging. Wait for the facts, then conducts your debates.

What this exposes more than anything is the hypocrisy of tin-pot management and sanctimonious politicians aided splendidly by a cynical media, who on the one hand will crucify an individual for being ‘under the influence of alcohol’ at 20mg, and yet conspire to increase flying hours for already tired flight crews.

In all my many years in this business, I have scarcely encountered anyone whose performance was impaired by alcohol. I have however seen countless incidences of fatigue, indeed have suffered myself. In an environment where ever more adventurous rostering departments have us flitting back and forth across the pond on two and three day rotations as if we were going to Brussels and back, fatigue and not beer will be the prime cause of performance impairment.

If this is a public debate, then so much the better. If the pilot is to be public enemy number one, and is to be cajoled into a life of abstinence, incarceration and celibacy, under what perverted rationale do they force him to fly till he drops through fatigue?

Twisted engine starter.
Perhaps I can help you. Read my post again. Read the reasoned posts on this thread as opposed to the "holier than thou" or personal insults efforts like yours. Think. And remember that the pain in your forehead is your halo tightening as your head swells.

A quick scan with Google produced this site - there are others but what appears to be a decent product was $30 cheaper here than others.
http://www.vipertechnologies.net/at2...ifications.htm
The cost of a kit $69 or $129 for 2. It might become as much a part of our equipment as a crew bag and should also be tax deductible. The accuracy of all breathalysers that I have looked at are .01% so it would appear that the real limit is 0.015.
Should we consider a joint purchase?
Danny might like to think about a "pop up" at a special price for PPRuNer’s.
Of course the Law would require us to check ourselves every day before going to work and if in any doubt report "unfit to carry out our duty"

It seems that the police can turn up at any time and 'try' to breathalise a pilot.
About 15 years ago while in the crew hotel at Saarbrucken in Germany, the German Police arrived to breathalise the British crew flying a UK registered aircraft involved in an airmiss with an American fighter near Ramstein while under a German radar service in uncontrolled lower airspace near Ramstein. The local police arrived at the hotel about 2 hours after the airmiss incident. The crew involved were having a post flight drink in my room when the police arrived. Fortunately the police eventually agreed with us that a breath test would be pointless, and they left after taking statements.

So the burning question is who is right then ? The International Olympic Committee, the CAA, the Swedes, Or the JAR OPs Committee ?
If the IOC except that alchohol is a perfomance enhancer then how much is it that neccessitates a ban? They obviously have scientific data to back up their claims/ban.

I think we can all agree that the limit set by the various authorities is an "Arbitary one" and no way could an individual be considered to be "Drunk"at that limit.

Hands up anyone who has NEVER broken the national speed limits of their Country ? You know you are breaking the limit and the laws of the land, as you have a speedo in front of you telling you so.
Such reckless and dangerous driving is surely intolerable but again you have a speedo in front of you; you know you are committing an offence and its your choice.

The problem is there is no practicle way anybody can measure accurately their alchohol limit at the moment.
the 8-12 hours bottle to throttle are good sensible guidelines but are just that, guidelines.

There is another problem that can arise aswell and goes like this:-

You have just finished an early duty/ Stby. You don't have to report for your next duty untill mid afternoon next day.
Its either your Birthday, New Year or what ever and you're booked into the local restaurant that evening.
You have either a bottle of wine or 3 or 4 beers, your last drink was say Midnight, so you will need at least 8 hours to get the alchohol out of your system, Agreed ?

You arrive home to find a message on your answer machine telling you now to do the early 6 am report, crewing are desperate as someone has gone sick and they have no one else on Stby.(isn't that always the case ?)
You are obviously not going to meet the JAR OPs limit so you phone and inform them of the dilema.
You are now told by crewing that you are refusing a duty and a report will be filed against you.

You have stood your ground, you report as per your roster, only to find that the guy you are taking the aircraft over from is the Chief Pilot and he is none too pleased, as he has had to operate "that early." He then makes your next few years HELL !!

I can see the day when you will not be allowed any alchohol what so ever during your 5-7 day duty period "just in case "....

Smokie

I´m afraid that´s the way it is in Sweden already! This is how sick the system is! You have to be legal to drive a car 8 hr before flt duty. The limit for driving a car in Sweden is theoreticaly 0.00%. Allowing for mesurement error 0.02%. Now this is 8 hrs before duty! Meening NO drink approx 4 hr before that . Now 12 hr before duty is usually the time you checkout from your previous duty! So there you are! :rolleyes:

Not that I understand how these breathalizers work, but I understand that false positives can occur if you have a lot of keytones on your breath from a low carbohydrate diet etc.
Also as a proffessional one's reputation is at stake. So if a disgruntled person decides to "get their own back" and report you for smelling of alchol, which proves by blood test to be untrue surely you will have legal grounds to sue for deformation of character libel etc., along with your company who no doubt had to replace you at the time at great expense.
There has to be some sort of come back for an inocent individual.
:eek:

YET!!!.

I must congratulate many of you here for managing to divert the thread into a discussion of JAR OPS, the IOC, Swedish alchol limits and whether or not spot-checks of crews are legal. Marvellous, just marvellous.

In the mean time you completely forget to address the main point here, namely why crews time and time again get busted for "driving" under the influence. What exactly is it that drive crews to drink on lay-overs, and why is it that some crew seems to have a problem keeping their consumption to a reasonable level (= a landing beer)?

Few years ago several BA pilots were fired following a TV doc. We may not like the way it was done, or even argue the technicalities of how much exactly they had been drinking. However, for anyone who has ever shared a hotel with a BA crew, it should be obvious what sometimes goes on. Whilst hardly a scientific fact, from own and others personal experience there seems to be a trend. I have seen, on several occasions, BA crews doing all nighters at the bar, only to check out at 06 something ..... Not very fcuking smart.

Alcohol has no place in aviation when duty is drawing close, and anyone in this profession who feels the need to "wind down" by consuming alcohol in quanties that leaves him or her unfit for an early morning duty, is probably in the wrong business.

Time for a radical change of behaviour perhaps? Not suggesting crew should go teetotal, far from it. But abstaining totally from drinking whilst on a night lay-over, and with an early morning report the next day, is probably not a bad idea. Not what aviation used to be like, but times they are changing. This industry is already suffering enough without these stories.

JUST DON'T DO IT!

Flip Flop Flyer

You still haven´t figured it out have You?
0.02% BAC is not a flight hassard! This shoulden´t have been a story. That is the point of this thread!!!

Flip Flop Flyer et al...

put yourself into this context

You work a whole month more or less 6 days on 2 off...

You may have a family at home, who you don't see very often, especially when you are (as a shorthaul pilot-) very often away 4-5 nights in a row(longer if you are longhaul).

You spend up to 12 hours a day locked in a 6'x6' box with one other bod who you may or may not get on with...

Your only communication with the outside world is on the r/t or the cabin interphone.

When you get down route you are rostered minimum legal rest period at least 50% of the time.

You very often don't get the time that most other people get in order to run the rest of their lives.....

You don't get the opportunity to 'pop' to the bank during your lunch hour etc..

Being able to do the sorts of things that everybody else in the modern western world gets to do during their time off is not alot to ask is it...

When you can no longer finish you day's work and go and socialise, and imbibe in say,...2 glasses of beer if you wish to, because the regulations would make you a criminal, is a bit sodding harsh isn't it......??

Maybe the new BA pilots' uniform should consist of sackcloth robes, and we should all shave our heads....because we are going to end up living as Monks at this rate....

Quality of life and rest periods down route are the major issues involved here.........Lower levels of stress and fatigue would have a far greater benefit to flightsafety than setting limits on alcohol so low they are only just measurable....as seems to be the case here.....

Icepack - you are absolutely correst when you talk of the dangers of fasle positves. Imagine the scene - 25 year captain who knows he is legal comes up positive on breath test. He goes home, calls Chief Pilot to set up loss of licence insurance (at one point being drunk at work was instantly assumed to be alcoholism hence medical removed), then picks up his phone to the solicitor to sue for all he is worth.

This is why the Airlines in the UK have not pushed for breath testing and has allowed the very sensible and workable self-policing system that IMHO works brilliantly in my company. If someone was clearly unfit to fly through alcohol misuse, drug misuse, stress, fatigue whatever i would have no hesitation to tell the the company and get the standby out. Surely this is better than some draconian system that only targets minute quantities of alcohol.

FlipFlopFlyer - you have totally missed the point of this. Singling out BA as a company does you no credit at all, it just fans the flames of the media inferno.

FFF

Care to substantiate the above sweeping and inaccurate assertion?
Er....no. One resigned the others, after a long, detailed inquiry and review of many hours of C4 film, were found to have no case to answer. C4 had attempted, very badly, to stitch up pilots in general. All bar the one who resigned are still flying for BA. Didn't make headlines because it wouldn't have sold newspapers.
Another sweeping, unsubstantiated, subjective assertion. I have been flying for BA for over 15 years and have NEVER witnessed what you allege. The allegation is offensive.
One might say the same about your rather childish mis-spelling of of vulgar slang.
Who said it did?
Why do you feel the need to state the obvious?
Rubbish. I and many, many others abide by the rules. The rules have worked for many years. Changing the rules will not lessen the, already minimal, offending.

A little like the drive by the road lobby to reduce the driving limits. It won't make a scrap of difference to habitual drink drivers but it will make my life, as a responsible person, less pleasant.

Looking at your profile I hope you don't allow your interests to affect your job.

Can anyone (no barrack-room doctors/lawyers please :rolleyes: ) tell me if I am correct in believing that it is possible for a tea-totaller to register up to 0.02 Promille as a result of naturally produced alcohol by the body? I vaguely remember reading somewhere that depending on diet the body can naturally produce enough alcohol to reach the 0.02 Promille limit, which, if is the case, means that the arbitary limit is either too low or the instruments required to determine the amount precisely need to be extremely accurate.

Whilst there is no excuse for anyone reporting for a flight under the influence of alcohol and there being no accurate way of determining that limit, especially if it is possible to theoretically be 'over the limit' but not inder the influence, then we need to be very cautious. So far it would appear in this case that the pilot concerned is extremely unfortunate and depending upon any action taken against him may have a case if he can get a good barrister.

Unfortunately we have many 'holier than thou' types posting here on PPRuNe but at least we can see the reactions to individuals on this topic. Those that jumped in with irrational comments based on the sensationalist news reports, especially those by the drug induced, syphylitic reporters from certain tabloids (Not nice being accused of something that possibly isn't true, is it? :p ) appear to be the same people who are the first to run around screaming and tearing their hair out when an inaccurate story is reported about a flight.

Whether we discuss it here or not the press are going to invent whatever they want about the incident. Fortunately there are a few reporters who frequent these pages with the intention of gathering a more accurate 'feel' for what we think may be the case. The posts which antagonise us the most, ie. the holier than thou ones, are largely ignored and the debate surrounding the technical, scientific and most importantly 'experience' of those of us actually in the job, are the ones that matter.

Whilst it is very easy to just not drink any alcohol at least 24 hours before a duty, especially if like me, you don't normally drink much anyway, in reality it is more important that the limits prescribed by the law are adhered to. If, as my original question asked, the body can naturally produce enough alcohol to take you over that arbitary limit are we not in danger of breaking the law regularly whilst never being under the influence?

If you were to use off the shelf mouth wash this has enough alcohol to bump you up a bit.

Bumblebee,

Not sure I can follow you. You've got a job that does not allow you to consume alcohol in quantities which may leave you unfit for duty the next day. If, due to the reasons you point out, that is a problem, then maybe flying short-haul / multi-sector is not for you?

M.Mouse

You remind me of OCB,looking at technicalities rather than the "big picture". And you may wish to deny this to yourself, or whomever else you wish to impress, but the habits among certain crews is well known in the community. You may wish to close your eyes to these things, and pretend they'll just go away. I won't. I have no axe to grind, on the other hand I am not a member of the silent service.

I will not do the searching for you, but go back through the library right here. From the top of my mind there was 2 or 3 crews in the US and recently, and the LH guy in HEL springs to mind. Perhaps they were/are all innocent, never the less brought themselves in a situation where they came under suspecion. Merely bringing one in a situation that may be suspect is stupidity made large in this business. But you already know that don't you?

Flip Flop Flyer

Poor thing! Still missing the point I see!

Danny

I´m not sure You meen 0.02 promille (0.002%) cause I don´t believe that is messurable at all. They do have problems messuring 0.02 percent accuratly! But to your Q yes it is possible that som things you eat can start to produce alcohol after beeing consumed. This winter they had to shot an elk (moose) in a norweagian neighbourhood for beeing out of control. It had been eating apples in a garden that had started to yeast in its tommy, makeing it severly drunk and thereby not afraid of people thus starting to attac kids and cars.
So from now on guys: no fruit, no chocholatemints no sourdough bread no nothing just water.:eek:

Flip Flop

The point is: we are talking about a situation where consuming a only a small amount of alcohol will end up putting you at or just over the 0.2 promille limit the morning after, yet that amount is highly unlikely to render anyone 'unfit'.

There are a great number of other stressors that have a far greater detrimental effect on the 'fitness', performance and ability of pilots to do their jobs....

It is an extraordinarily unusual job....as are those of the guys and girls in ATC.....

More allowance must be made for some semblance to the way others outside of the industry including your friends and family live their lives.

The constant erosion of terms and conditions, reduction of rest periods and increases in hours all mean that as pilots, crews, and ATC - or for that matter anybody working in a safety-critical environment - we have increasing levels of stress + pressure.

What i have is a job that makes it very difficult to live anything like a normal life when i have time off downroute...

As quality of life in the job deteriorates, so does flightsafety....

Interesting to compare this discussion with the regular banter about duty hours and fatigue. Fatigue is bad and airlines are all very naughty for making you work long hours, but here we have contributors who think alcohol levels above the legal minimum are not only unavoidable but acceptable - some even going so far as to suggest it enhances performance!:eek:

Can we at least try and get some consistency into the debate. Alcohol and fatigue are both bad, and nobody should be encouraging a situation where crews are working under the influence of either.

The law is the law (and it may even be an ass sometimes), but everybody knows the limits and you are pretty dumb if you put yourself into a situation where you fall foul of them. Only you make the decision to drink before you know you are on duty, so if you get caught - tough luck. Frankly I don't see the need to be drinking when you're working myself.

You may not 'feel' drunk at that level, but 'feeling' has nothing to do with it. We wouldn't defend pilots breaking the minima on approaches or otherwise jeopardising passengers and crews, so why the sudden tolerance of pilots who may or may not be operating with illegal levels of alcohol?

We recently had a debate in our medical staff association covering all the issues raised by these posts. The patterns of work in hospital medicine have many similarities to the aviation world. We rejected a "zero tolerance" policy to alcohol on the grounds that reasonable intake (driving limit) should not have any significant impact upon performance. Furthermore, as our hepatologist (liver doctor) pointed out, being denied red wine in moderation (2 units or so/day) can actually have a detrimental effect upon one's longevitiy, particularly in relation to the major killers ischaemic heart disease and stroke.

What is needed surely is a common sense policy, universally applied across States which everyone can feel comfortable with.

Martinidoc,

Excellent post, at this rate the way certain individuals advocate living our lives for us, none of us will be around to enjoy our retirement.

I rest my case.

Danny

You are using holier than thou as some sort of insult. I've sat in pubs and drunk alcohol-free beer. It's not that difficult. There are hoards of people reading PPRuNE who would die for the honour of being a commercial pilot. So don't tell me I'm some sort of pathetic individual if I say pilots should absolutely be alcohol-free when they fly. What's the point in banging on about safety if you then willfully degrade your own performance. As yet nobody has countered my point that half a pint of beer has measurable adverse effects on pilot performance. Underlying this discussion is the feeling that lot of people have - that being slightly under the influence is neither here nor there and just part of life's rich tapestry. I'm not holier than anyone else. I'm just not self-deluded.

Issues of fatigue and legal jurisdiction are red herrings. The question is should an ordinary professional pilot believe in being sober, or indeed, should he obey his airline's rules?

As for spurious readings, I doubt this can happen but more to the point I would lay money that the pilot concerned had acted inadvisably. It's extremely unlikely this sequence of events would have occurred following a mouthwash. In fact I'd wager he'll turn out to be rather more than the 0.2 figure.

Bumblebee
 

Sorry mate, will have to disagree.

If your chosen occupation severly impacts the way you wish to live your private life, then in my humble opinion either your occupation or private life needs a change of direction.

Being a pilot, as you obviously know, is not your regular mon-to-friday 9-to-5 kind of thing. As such, you can not readily expect to have the same possibilites as one working office hours, just as a "standard" office worker can not expect to have rostered days off on week days. I am sorry, but I have no sympathy if that leaves pilots in less advantageous positions from time to time. There are other advantages you have over 9-to-5 people, so exploit them to the fullest.

Break the rules, you risk getting caught. If you're caught, don't come crying "the rules are stupid". You knew what they were, and by breaking them you put yourself in a position where you may face severe repercussions.

Flip Flop Flyer and twistedenginestarter,
You´re both twisted! Nobody on this thread has said they accept drunks flying. We are though discussing media blowing this totally out of proportion and that the legislators (pencil pushers) are passing laws that turn ordinary people into criminals. Had it been that 0.02% did affect your performance in a negative way I´d be all for the law. But it does not. It´s accutally been shown that performance did increase with a BAC at 0.05% in simulator tests.
Twist you claim that a pint of beer adversly effects your performance. Where do you get that from? Self experienced or what!

I am sure that there are, and to be honest they are welcome to it. It felt like an honour 9-10 years ago but I don't think you will find many of us in the UK who still think it is.

Evidence please.

I have no idea if the body can produce .02 Promille as a result of naturally produced alcohol, however at least two scientific papers have been written on the subject.

Lindiger, W., Taucher, J., Jordan, A., and Vogel, W. Endogenous production of methanol after the consumption of fruit. "Alcoholism: Clinical and Experimental Research", 1997, 21, 939-943

Phillips, M., Greenberg, J., and Martinez V., Ostrovsky, Y. M. Endogenous ethanol -- its metabolic, behavioral and biomedical significance. "Alcohol," 1986, 3, 239-247.

--Mik

FFF,

ok...it would be interesting to expand this discussion.....would you mind specifying which of the points in my previous post you disagree with?

btw...i am certainly not advocating that one breaks the rules...

I'm trying to put just one issue into context....
You mentioned the importance of the 'big picture' yourself...


thx
Bumblebee

I was always a big believer in pprunes open policy on members. There have been some subjects in the past where lay people have brought something to the party but not, I fear, very recently.

Oh dear, perhaps those hoards would like to explain why, if its such a fab job our divorce, alcoholism and early death rates are at the levels they are?

Number of people killed by drunk drivers in the UK since 1980 - 20 000 (yes thats 20 thousand http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/drinkdrive/).
Number of commercial aviation accidents caused by drink since WW2 - 0.

Why dont you go and do something worthwhile, like shopping your family member who regularly drinks and drives? (we all have one) And leave people trying to do a job you so clearly have little understanding of to do their job to the best of their ability.