Hotel Charlie.

A rule is a rule. Any (repeat any) alcohol intake 12 hours before taking command is a No No as far as I am concerned. That is what I was taught and I stick by it

The point is obvious: there is no benefit in arguing whether the guy was hard done by or not.
The rules of play are simply different to what they used to be and they are not going to become any more lenient, ever.

The answer is simple:- if you want to keep your licence, don't drink the night before an early start. Not too much of a sacrifice for keeping a good job.

R

From what has been said it seems the level being exceeded was half a pint of beer. I must I find that slightly difficult to believe but anyway, when I was being trained to fly, the received position was that half a pint is the lowest amount of alcohol that could - at that time - be detected. Nevertheless half a pint of beer produces quantifiable reduction in pilot performance under test.

Please, everyone, make sure you have a zero alcohol level when you fly.

I believe, by the way, that Tube drivers (and other Underground workers) are randomly breathylised and will fail if they have been drinking the night before - so no sympathy about intrusions on your lifestyle.

NigelOnDraft

Apologies!

I had (incorrectly) made the association of positioning on duty with wearing uniform which in most (all?) companies is a no no.

Shows the danger of making assumptions I guess!!!!!!!

Not drunk...
 

As an ex cop I do remember some of the factors involved.

The blood/ alcohol limit on UK roads is 80mg of alcohol per 100ml of blood. If this guys reading was a quarter of this then it would equate in my experience - approximately - to one 'unit' (a half of beer, glass of wine or single shot of spirit) ie the sort of level routinely guzzled by professional pilots - civvy and military - in France with their lunch.

I also recall that alcohol is dissipated from the blood at around 15mg per hour - but with many variables involved.

I therefore reckon that 3 pints of 4 percent beer would have 'Mr average' 1 1/2 x times the driving limit and would almost certainly leave him with the sort of reading reported here in the early morning.

This guy wasn't ****@d and presumably got nicked just because somebody noticed his beer breath.

Secondly, the breath test administered at the scene is just a screening device. It is the basis for a request for further samples only.

Mouth alcohol will not convict you. A teaspoonfull of scotch swilled around your mouth will give an enormous reading. However, 20 minutes later - a very good margin to allow for such a highly volatile liquid to dissipate - will allow a sensible reading that reflects the true level of alcohol in your body - hence the question 'when did you have your last drink?'

A cop will always wait for 20 minutes on the roadside if you have just driven out of a pub.

All I would say to you guys - and I am just a hobby pilot who is usually found on the Private Flying and History forums only - is this-

If any of you have 2 or 3 pints of beer in an evening, go to bed reasonably early, get up feeling absolutely fine, pin-sharp and ready to do your professional job - you are probably at the same level as our poor unfortunate BA victim.

Without a doubt - there will be some trace of alcohol at the very least.

Don't risk it. Have a glass of wine with your dinner, or a single beer if you really feel the need but leave it at that. It ain't worth it.

The journo's have had a field day with this. Anybody reading the Mail on Sunday will believe that this bloke was dragged, reeling ****@d, from the cockpit.

No way.

There is already a great 'holier than thou' reaction - and there will be plenty more keen to have a pop at him.

However, how many others are reading this and thinking, 'that could have been me'?

HP

Whist, I suppose one should commend the diligence(?) of the ARN staff .
I would like to point out that at an airport on the west coast of sweden I have reguarly complained about a far more dangerous situation than a pilot with a minimal alchohol level, namely a situation wherte the re fueuling supervisor leaves his position in order to assit the baggage loaders,
this came to the forefront on the day when smoke appeared from the bowser while it was not being monitored by the designated supervisor, in my opinion this was far more dangerous than the
ARN scenario

I have also experienced situations where at an airport in north west France I have twice had serious doubts about the sobriety of the same (very attractive) lady, who does the load sheet, including such coments on the flight deck as "Did you sjmell her breathe?", and then not too suppriesed to find major load
sheet errors
In future I will make sure that these people are subject to any available scrutiny which also applies to aircrew

Hairyplane - an intelligent and considered addition. I only hope our Street of Shame tormentors will read it. How anyone armed with what I expect is a good degree can go into that profession and sleep at night I cannot imagine.

As someone whose recent life has consisted of 6 earlies, 2 days off then 6 earlies (which should of course be illegal but as a 7.30 take off on the continent doesnt count as an early despite a body clock 4.30 alarm call) I know how debilitating fatigue can be - far more dangerous than 2 or three pints 9 hours earlier. Now that is worth a serious investigation - but of course that would mean some hard work and the headline 'Pilots forget to arm Localiser due to Tiredness' doesnt really look as good in 44 point.

and don't forget .....mouthwashes are out now early a.m. and don't spill any beer on yer trousers in the pub and wear them the next day . You'll be smelling of alcohol !!!!!!!!!

My father gave me some advice many moons ago......"Don't go on the razzle with Scandinavians......they can't handle it ......and they're obsessed with it" It proved to be good advice Most recently on th Necastle-Bergen ferry !!!!!

0.2 eh !!!!!!! half pint of beer .......nuff said


Good luck to the poor sod who fell into their clutches

I second that 52049er , a reasoned and balanced approach is what is needed in a situation like this.

A couple or three things come to mind.

When will the first pilot go to jail for being tired? Three people in the UK have now been jailed for causing an accident wile driving tired; the last one it seems was of perfect character before an unexplained excursion across the road which got him a year inside.

The assumption that a small amount of booze is OK is alway a little risky. It is the small amount that makes us think that a bit more will not matter too much, then just a drop...etc. etc.. This has always led me to believe that any crime that may be committed, is at the early stage of a drinking session. The planning should be as meticulous as fuel calculations, but then in a perfect world I would not be trying to sleep in the middle of a noisy town at noon, with the A/C out and a road drill outside.

Pilots have probably always resorted to alcohol to help with the difficult lifestyle. If we are to set new standards in sobriety, what will be done to aid proper sleep requirements?

Just out of interest, are there many BA A320 pilots on £100,000, or is this simply reflective of the level of reporting on the subject? And is this a usual mount for someone of his seniority?

Thanks.

One quick thought......

Did the swedish police break international law when they entered the aircraft??

As far as I know the inside of a british regestred aircraft is british soil, and foreign police have therefore no rights there. It is the same with aircraft as ships and embassies. I recall at least one insident where the police was about to enter a foreign aircraft to arrest some people but were quickly turned around at the door, because it breached international law and the sovernity of the sate the aircraft was regestred in.

Any komments??

Xeque,

So what you are saying that to go out on a bender, drink 15 pints but stop 12 hours and 5 mins before flying is OK , but to drink half a pint 11 and 55 minutes before take off is a No No- is how you were taught to play the game .:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

>>Did the swedish police break international law when they entered the aircraft??<<

Probably not, this hypothetical stuff about sovereign territory does not apply to a parked aircraft with the door open in most countries (including the U.S.). Law enforcement can and will enter the aircraft from my experience.

Anyway, according to BA, they caught the alleged drunk pilot before he got to the cockpit. From an earlier post in this thread:

>>BA spokeswoman

BA insisted that the pilot, reportedly in his 50s and from the London area, had not been close to flying the plane.

"Any suggestion that the pilot was removed from the cockpit is simply untrue," the spokeswoman said. <<

If he has gone too close to the line and is dismissed, he will be able to make a small fortune by taking the previously named newspapers to court.

I'm sure there are plenty of witnesses to say that he was not dragged from the cockpit etc...

Lock the flight deck door and refuse to open it for twelve hours - seriously!!!

I wish, I wish! He would be making a good salary but it is somewhat irrelevant in my thinking.

Does anybody know how many airliners have crashed due to pilots being intoxicated?

Senator McCarthy would be proud if he could observe the witch hunts that are now taking place, in so many areas, with such zeal by so many.

Does anybody have any idea when we will arrive at Utopia where life will be devoid of any risk whatsoever?

The swedish rules
 

The swedish rules are as follows:
24 hrs before duty one must drink with care, i.e. a pint or so...
8 hrs before duty you are not allowed to drink anything containing alcohol and one must be able to drive a car according to swedish regulations, wich is 0,2 promille.
When checking in for duty the limit is 0,0.

These are the rules we are supposed to follow when we fly on our swedish licence, wherever we fly in the world.

If any of it turns out to be true (IF!) then good riddance. The industry has had enough setbacks to last a lifetime.

However, every cloud.....that's one more vacancy to be filled by someone a little more responsible.

witchdoctor,
someone more responsible,such as you I suppose ?
With that charming attitude,no wonder you would like to fill the void,if this unfortunate guy is kicked out of BA.
A PPL and six hundred hours on Flight Sim 2000 does not give you the right to pre-judge a PROFESSIONAL pilot.

As cabin crew I know that at the end of a five to seven day block of earlies,getting up at base or downroute is irrelevant and long multi-sector days,sometimes I really feel the tiredness take affect.

In our position as cabin crew this can be seen in the service when our faces crack on day six sector four when trying to say 'hello and goodbye'with company smiles!!,or when someone asks for a drink and when you take it the punter in the next seat asks for one :mad: .
On a safety side of things we may be two seconds slower to open the door.

My point here is if our actions are impaired by 'fatigue' the consequences would certainly not be as serious as it would to our colleagues on the flight deck.

No I don't want to fly with any pilot who is p**sed and to my knowledge never have (and IMHO a couple of glasses of wine or a couple of pints outside of 12 hours is NOT p**sed ),however more and more I see pilots on their last sector of a busy tour with lots of early starts and they look very tired and this does concern me.

Both BALPA and to an extent our cabin crew unions need to ensure no increase to our working hours if not fight for a reduction.

I have one day off which is today and I'm back on duty at 0810 tomorrow so to be safe do I have to have my two glasses of red at 1600 with an early dinner to be safe??. Maybe we should look at a minimum early start on our first day back ?.
There are people out there willing to stop us flying for being 'over the limit' and that can only be a good thing for all concerned but I can't see these same people doing the same if they see we're tired!!.

I finish by asking all those highly paid 'journos' out there to reduce their alcohol intake and it may help them stop getting so many facts mixed up and producing such !!!!! articles on their front pages.If I can find some pretty Airbus F/O on 100K I may have to say goodbye to the Missus!!.

NJR.

witchdoctor and other puritanical zealots...

Do you ever engage brain before approaching keyboard?

'Police drag drunken BA pilot from controls of airliner.
ARRESTED IN THE COCKPIT'
is how the Mail on Sunday reported this 'Exclusive' story.

That set the tone for an article which shames modern 'journalism'. Put on the front page to shock and sell papers, but not to inform us truthfully of newsworthy world happenings.

IF the pilot was breathalysed and was asked to take a blood test, then fair enough. He was almost certainly NOT 'dragged from the controls.'

The kind of alcohol level we are talking about has nothing to do with 'drunkenness' or ability to drive or fly, but the limits to which a scientific instrument can apply the thought police policies of modern living. A zero limit sentences pilots, and pilots only it seems, to becoming tee-total or finding a new job.

What kind of world is it in which a once respected team of professionals can no longer live a normal life and exercise professional judgement over this issue?

Hello Dudes and Dudets!

nojacketsrequired and Arkroyal You are right on! The hole thing is a load of BS! This is what it comes to when we let low life pencil pushers and 'journos' make the big decisions for oss. We need to take our lifes back!

I wish.

Could it be that the journos would not have even picked up on this case had it not been for the existence of this thread? I think a degree more thought should be used before opening such threads. Press interest in the alleged offence (innocent until proven guilty, not that would have any effect on the loathsome Mail on Sunday) has probably increased the stress levels on the indivdual concerned ten-fold (and stress alone can kill)

Quite right Moondance,
quite simply this guy has been treated as guilty until proved innocent by:
The gutter press
Many pprune contributors

Lets see the result of the blood test before we "convict" the guy. After all, using mouthwash would probably give a positive breathalyser result.

ATB, PTC (positively disgusted, though not surprised at this thread)

Arkroyal - absolutely correct.

And on Sky News last night, yet another example of our gutter loving, sensationalist, crap talking, truth-denying media - "in yet another of what is a recent long line of incidents involving pilots trying to fly while under the influence of alcohol, a BA pilot has been suspended.....blah blah blah......this will do little to restore the confidence of frightened passengers. " eh???

What a load of tosh eh..........:rolleyes: :mad: It's amazing how the planes ever stay up there what with us all rolling around drunk.:rolleyes:

Don't be silly T-shirt. You know what I mean.

What was the Policeman doing in the cockpit anyway? I thought the law now was that only the operating flight deck crew and CAA Ops inspectors were allowed in the cockpit of a british registered airliner?

Perhaps the issue is not that a pilot had an alchohol level equivalent to half a point of shandy drunk 12 hours earlier but that another gross breach of security has taken place and passengers were "screaming with terror" as man with "a gun and handcuffs and a truncheon" entered the cockpit.

I thought it would be appropriate to point out that in this case it doesn't matter what Swedish law is regarding flying and drinking. The pilot was about to fly a British registered aircraft and therefore British law applies. The amount of blood alcohol allowed (0.2 promille) is the same but Swedish law is stricter regarding the number of hours "bottle to throttle". Even though you may be flying in Sweden, if the aircraft is British than you are operating to British limits not Swedish.

Lazlo

Are you absolutely sure about that?

FWIW, I feel terribly sorry for the individual concerned. There but for the grace......etc. On no measure could this guy be considered 'drunk' if he blew one quarter of the legal limit for driving in this country!

Everybody should be aware that these puritanical limits are determined for political reasons, by politicians who wish to curry the votes of a vocal minority.

They have very little, IF ANY, scientific justification. After all, as far as I am aware, alcohol is one of many substances BANNED by the IOC, because in small quantities it actually ENHANCES human performance!!!

Give the poor guy a break, he must be going through hell!

Reading between the lines, it sounds very much to me as though somebody has had a malicous dig at him as 'payback!'

I'm sorry, but it sounds like a lot of you think going to work, smelling of alcohol and having 0.2 promille, is OK. That having 1/2 bottle of wine with your dinner is a right you have, and if it produces 0.2 promille in the morning, then it's the system that is wrong, not you?
The Scandihooligans are madmen, so he was simply unlucky to get caught? Better not drink in Scandiland then, save it for France? Spain?
The rules are tough, but it should not be a problem. It's not against the rules to be 100% sober when you report for duty. If he used Scotch to rinse his mouth, the blood test will clear him. The time between the breath test and the blood test will work for him, as the level will drop.
If the press reports are correct, what should the police have done when staff reported him to smell of alcohol? What should HE have done when he saw the police, run to the aircraft and shut the doors, claiming to be in UK?

promille
 

1 promille = 1/1000 and 1 percent = 1/100

Scando!

Get a grip! The man was NOT drunk. 0.02% does not meen that you´re drunk. Nobody here has said it is ok to fly drunk! It looks like You aplaude the ridiculous alkohol politics that are in force in Scandinavia. If you think the man is less safe having 0.02% alcohol than the theoretical 0.00% then you have a problem. And yes the system sucks!

Lazlo

Sorry, you are wrong to say when flying in Sweden, if the aircraft is British than you are operating to British limits not Swedish. The is no reason why the Swedish law should not apply to foreign aircraft. Indeed the Bill currently before the UK Parliament applies a 0.02 promille limit to the crew of all aircraft in the UK regardless of the registration of the aircraft or the nationality of the carrier.

Tandemrotor

The 0.02 promille limit has not be established by politicians but by the European safety regulators based on scientific evidence. I attended a Royal Aeronautical Society Conference on this subject a number of years ago and the consensus amongst the scientists making presentations was that the low limits were necessary.

First thing to do now is increase briefing times for all flights in order to familiarize with laws of your destination. You think you're legal with one beer at dep- 12hrs, it turns out to be different.
How can you know what the limit is? That could be an interesting question when BA is going to sack those pilots.

We need to know if he just had a few the night before and some still remained in his bloodstream or whether he really'hung one on ' .

If it is the latter , I hope he pulls the stress card . invasive security searches several times a day , terrorist threats , long duty hours , locked up in a cockpit for hours at a time , to name but a few . All the politicians can do is dream up ways of making our lives more unpleasant .

What have the authorities done to ease ourstress levels / concerns post 911 ?

Alcohol limit
 

Under the present bill [clause 90] going through parliament the prescribed limit will be 20 milligammes of alcohol per 100 millilites of blood for aircrew and ATCOs. Engineers will be permitted 80 per 100. It is estimated that the present "blow in the bags" will cost £17k to modify for the lower limit.

Clause 95 permits the police to board aircraft or "any other place"
[crewroom?]

'The powers that be' estimate that between 10 and 15 individuals will be brought before the courts yearly under this new legislation.
Their airships have not explained how this figure has been computed.

Articles 5,6 and 8 of the Human Rights Act may be affected by this bill, but because it is in the public interest etc etc it is compatible with the Act. So that's alright then.

No doubt BALPA will wish to give us appropriate guidance in the fullness of time.

:rolleyes:

Journalist dragged from typewriter drunk!! Not really headline stuff eh! The paper is run and owned by w*nkers! They should get to face the poor bloke concerned, my guess is that a large proportion of the country are over the swedish limits a lot of the time - especially journos who look for headlines alas these days and not reporting facts. Sensationalist tw*ts.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Swedish rules...
 

Im a swedish pilot, according to Swedish CAA i must obey swedish rules, but if i'm flying in a country with stricter rules, i must obey them instead (are there any in this case???). Is it the same for UK?

Bye the way, 0,02% is not beeing drunk, so true, but on the other hand, taking the responsibility in account, when you show up for flight duty you should be at 0,00%.
Its our responsibility to be able to cope with situations that can be quite demanding. Are we able to do that after a night out with ramains of alcohol in the blood the morning after?