Citi Express Base Closures
 

:eek:
It seems there are strong rumors that there is going to more base closures for BA Citi Express and future size and shape mark two. We seem to be able to close bases just as fast as easy Jet opens them.
Bye Bye Jet Stream 41 which if the rumors are true will not be with us after Jan 03. More displaced pilots and possible redundancies.

Seems logical that if BACE wants to survive it'll have to find an effective way of competing with the low cost carriers such as Easyjet AND with other airlines. It's a simple matter of cost: you can get a return ticket eg. from BRS to CDG for around £69 on the new Air France Regional jet flights, but if you take the early BACE departure (sometimes operated by a Dash 8 I understand)it'll cost you more than £500 return. Who would you fly with???? :(

Does anybody know what "BA City express" are going to do with there Jetstream 41, and if they are going to retraine all there pilot on DASH or Jet?
I heared the rumour that the lease of the J 41 with British Aerospace is not over until 2007. It looks to me that it is going to cost them a fortune to return the Aircrafts before!!!

BACX RJ issues etc
 

At present if your in BACX as a pilot you must be hearing loads of talk about the fate of the RJs etc. Are they coming are they not?
Who is going to crew them and WHY!!
Now can anyone shed some light to what the score is? Maybe someone in the Ivory tower can contribute!!

Also, there are a lot of rumours about the J41 winter sell off!!
is this really happening and can anyone put any facts to this growing roumour.

Well this should get the ball rolling.


P.S. The one that started the rumour about BACX getting Airbus instead of RJs should get a job at Wallmarts. There is more
chance of getting a cheese board with the crew food than that one happening. My money is on the Doctor Pepper super tube!! in time.

The suggestion of Base closures has reared its head before as has the disposal of the J41. What I would like to know is which Bases are likely to be closed and what will happen to the J41s? Some people believe there is some truth in these rumours and others believe they are ridiculous.

BRS - CDG
 

As regular flyer on this route, since AF have (re-)started their service they have had a good reliabililty record which is certainly more than can be said of BA on the same route. Sitting on a 145 for an hour and a quarter waiting for take-off takes some stomaching at £500+ for the return trip!
The operations management at BRS appears incoherent and headed up by teenagers with failed O levels in Domestic Science!
JB

if this is true ,then what shall become of those of us in the holding pool ?

Don't say i have got to start over again !!

Rumours rumours....
 

OK, so here is what I have heard...

1) Eastern to get 5 of our J41's as they have said they want them and the South African ones are too expensive to put on the UK register.

2) EuroManx to get 6, Eastern to get 6, hence disposal of entire fleet. EuroManx and Eastern to be given a franchise when they get the J41's (and what would be the difference from having Manx/BRAL fly them??? Would be same aircraft, same routes and probably same pilots. Full circle perhaps?)

3) Route changes at LBA

I do not claim any of these are true, just what I have heard from the mill. It is true that BA would like to sell the J41, but with leases up until 2007 and (perhaps) no one willing to take on the leases it will be tricky.

I reckon it is more likely that there will be major route changes at LBA rather then getting rid of the J41.

Pilots in the holding pool - we are still filling the holding pool and there are about 60ish BA cadet F/O's in the airline at the moment who BA would like back to fly jets in the not too distant future. There will be jobs for pilots in BACX in a while I reckon.

Rumours, Rumours
 

I have flown several times just recently out of LBA and loads have been excellent. I understand that they have improved dramatically in recent times. Incidentally, I do like the J41 (proper flying, particularly a recent and very hairy take off from LGW) and the cabin crew are the friendliest I have ever come across.
What new routes would you anticipate being flown out of LBA and which ones would go?
Replacing 60 F/O Cadets would not be easy in the short term?
Eastern are a very successful private airline. There may be some truth in the rumours after all??

Just speculation on my part.

If there are changes afoot at LBA I imagine the general direciton would be "less" as opposed to "more". LGW & DUB could sustain a 50 seat a/c but I'm not so sure about SOU,BRS,ABZ & IOM.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they dropped in 2 x DHC-8 or Emb-145 to stick to these two routes and used MAN crew to service them.

If so, nor would I be surprised to see Eastern come in and take over routes to SOU, ABZ etc.

682

Off thread and selfish so I apologise, however does anyone know how many people are in the holding pool and the rate at which people are moving from pool to type rating? I understand from previous posts that the transition is fairly rapid but posts regarding reduction of a/c types has me intrigued to say the least.

Many thanks

What about the Newcastle base with all those lovely J-41s? :D :rolleyes:

More displaced pilots with greater immunity than the diplomatic bag!!!

Zero, don't hold your breath. I work (appear) with Citiexpress and I can tell you there will be little recruitment 'till the cadets go back, as we are 83 pilots heavy at the moment. The reason for this is that the company can see the cadets going back sooner than later.;)

Rumour at NCL is the Dublin is about to be dropped and Ryanair possibly entering the fray!
These I must add these are rumours can any one substantiate any more?

I wouldn’t miss the J41 but have lots of friends working for CityExpress! Hope the six-month-old Newcastle base survives!

:(

I suppose FR would say that with Teeside, they already "serve" Newcastle :D

As a previous Brymon employee, I can only wish all of my ex-colleagues all the best. I truely hope that the management can start appreciating the huge impact that it has on the most important asset that they have, their staff! And therefore, start communicating in a manner which they would also like to be treated.

Yes, they must report to Big Brother, and yes they must be competitive in an ever increasing marketplace. Yet they must understand the importance of effective communication!

As for the J41's......... Get shot of them! Dash 8 far better, even if the support from DeHavilland leaves something to be desired.

Someone earlier mentioned Air France on the BRS-CDG route. Make the best of it! They never last! This must the 4th/5th time in about 7-8years that they have tried this route, and every time they pull out. Previously with francise's, as well as operating with a 737 some years back. BACX should be wary, but should not concern themselves to much with their presence, they will dissapear back across the water in good time. They just need to be concerned the mighty Easyjet/Go which I believe have made a very good home out of BRS.

"interestedparty"
Earlier you mentioned that sitting on a ERJ145 for 1hr 45mins, waiting for take-off. Have you any idea why? If you have then fine, but if you hav'nt, then why not ask, as oppossed to suggest that it something to do with the incompetence of the airline. Not really fair critism.

Also you mention some rather unpleasant descriptions of BACX staff at BRS. This also leads to believe that you don't work within the industry at all, and that you are probably just one of those business men, who think that everyone else is below them, and that the most important person in the world is yourself. If I'm wrong then once again, fine, but please consider the people that you insult so openly, may bery well be reading this forum.

Back to the thread!

Best Wishes to all my ex colleagues from the days of Brymon Airways. The memories are still good, if maybe a little hazy now. It must be all the sun!

AOG007

All of the Cadets at BA who didn't get a contract post Sep 11th 2001 are now being brought into the company. When those cadets who are with BACX will start being pulled back in I don't know for sure but my guess would be sooner rather than later, the recruitment Dept. at BA, well the section in the CC that deals with pilot recruitment, is starting to get "snowed under". As for the RJ. It all depends on the Scope negotiations. You may be aware there is raging debate over the pay negotiations at the moment, that is where all attention is focussed. Once that is sorted out, then scope is next. Until a deal is agreed then no BA aircraft of 100 seats or more will be flown by anyone other than a BA mainline pilot. The union at the recent GMM's stated they would like to get scope sorted by Xmas, I wouldn't hold your breath.

The result of the scope negotiations could conceivably be that the RJ continues to be flown by BA mainline crew and few positions if any are released to BACX, or the other end of the scale would be complete agreement (ha ha) and all the RJ positions released to BACX plus the pilots who have bid to stay in the regions from BA mainline. No one knows what the answer will be, frustrating isn't it!

Oops!
Bral I take it your on the 146. I was only trying to fill in a few gaps so that what we know might be known elsewhere, I wasn't trying to be pompous. I forgot about the 146 and so, it seems, has everyone else!!!!:D

The answer to this on reflection may be that it is a line in the sand and the statement is referring to a/c currently flying on routes that are crewed NOW by BA mainline crews. Just a thought.

the `less than `100 seats` scope clause,has not been agreed and is not in effect.It has no chance of being accepted unless BA offer something worthwhile in return.

BRS to CDG
 

In response to AOG007, I said I sat on board for 75 minutes, not 105! And I didn't criticise the staff, just the management - which quite a lot of other people on this site seem to do as well.
The delay, was due to air traffic control problems, but these do seem to affect BA flights from and to BRS more than anyone else, as reference to the arrivals and departures info. will show.
Yes, I am now a business man, but used to sit at the sharp end.
Curiously business travellers tend to keep "full service" carriers in the air, which is perhaps not as widely appreciated as it should be.
I take the point that AF have been on and off the route, but assuming the equipment they are now using can handle the BRS weather, and considering the ease of connections at CDG T2 and their convenient flight timings they do have some chance of success. They certainly seem to get good loads in & out of SOU.
JB

interestedparty

As one of those "teenagers with failed O levels in Domestic Science!" (which is of course not a criticism) I can now at least appreciate that you are well aware of certain things that go on within aviation, as you mention you used to sit at the sharp end.

As you correctly mentioned, flights to and from CDG from BRS, are notorious for there ATC delays. The annoying point from when I used to be one of those teenagers, was that only 1 hour later, a BritAir (Air France Franchisee) used to operate to CDG, using the same routing, flight levels, and similar speed. So why did they always have an unrestricted departure to CDG. I would'nt want to think that there was some form of preference in and out of CDG for French carriers, but it does make you think this when what ever was done, nothing avoided being hit with minimum delays of 40mins. The majority of these delays are arrival restrictions into CDG, and therefore routing changes are irrelevant.

Anyone who works for a "Full Service" carrier, certainly appreciates which client is classed as the "bread and butter" of the airline, and in BACX's (Brymon) case, they certainly know who is important. This may be difficult to see at the moment, due to the immense changes taking place throughout the organisation, which does'nt exactly encourage the staff to go out of the way for the company, but they do value each and every passenger that passes through BRS.

You mention AF having the right equipment to handle the weather at BRS. In my opinion they always have. Remember BRS has only been CATII for a short period, so prior to that, everyone was in the same boat. Brymon's only advantage back in the days of Britair, was crew's famililarity with the surrounding area. I truely believe that AF will dissappear as they have in the past.

As for the management? Well that is another story. I have no respect for them, and treat them all with contempt they deserve. BA's biggest mistake was allowing control of a very large regional operator, to be passed to people whom had no previous BA management experience. Brymon was run by primarily BA personnel, with only a few original Brymon members from the Pre BA days. Although BRAL/MANX was clearly a well run company prior to the merge, the management were not equipped to deal with the issue's that have been presented by the bringing together of a wholly owned subsidery, and a franchise operator. It will change in time, but when, only Big Rod can answer.

AOG007

<<EuroManx and Eastern to be given a franchise when they get the J41's >>
utter b*%l*x i'm afraid. Rod Eddington has staed that he is actively reducing the number of franchises 'cos they dilute the BA product.

<<the `less than `100 seats` scope clause,has not been agreed and is not in effect.It has no chance of being accepted unless BA offer something worthwhile in return>>
the BACX CC blew this when they tried to hold the BACC to ransom (allegedly). I have heard that the BACC were going to offer ALL BACX jet crews a place on the BA list, with access to 744,777, concorde etc etc if they wanted to bid for such things. prop crews were a negotiating tool. Allegedly, someone in the BACX CC is very very anti BA (must have got turned down by them - so what didn't we all at one time or another) and told the BACC to p&&s off. So BACX pilots are now out of the loop thanks to the alleged actions of a few. Thanks guys.

of, course like most rumours, this may all be a load of tosh!! we will all find out soon enough.

BRS is CatIII on 27. A fact which has got me home no less than 7 times this month!

WWW

Wee Weasley Welshman

Must have been half a sleep when I was creating my reply. I meant CATIII, as opposed to CATII.

All this sun must be going to head. Such a difference to spending most of my time judging visibility by means of "Can I see the trident on the south side", very high tech in my days at BRS!

Hows the Go/Easy camp at BRS? You just seem to be getting busier and busier?

AOG007

Psycobfh,
I have just read a post from one of our reps that said that because of the unhelpful attitude of the BACX CC BACX were unlikely to feature in the scope negotiations. Looks like you were correct!

Atropos

BACX CC - Company Council or Cabin Crew?

Just to clarify?

AOG007

JPJoystick

"the `less than `100 seats` scope clause,has not been agreed and is not in effect.It has no chance of being accepted unless BA offer something worthwhile in return."

With respect mate, the BACC offered a place on mainline BA seniority for BACX FO's with Mainline Capts flying in the LHS. Your lot turned it down. Egg on face if you have seen the new proposed payscales.

Frankly, the BACC don't have to offer you diddly, 'cause its a mainline fleet, from a mainline base, flown by mainline pilots.

Before this argument rears it's head again, just think on... BA propose to give the BACX Dash fleet to XYZ airlines for them to crew and operate. Operate that is, from an existing BACX base, on existing BACX routes, but tough luck, you can't fly it anymore.

Your would love that wouldn't you??!!!

Reality check please

BlueupGood

:mad:

To Psyco and Atropos and those of you who would have us believe that BACX CC were not representing their members interests when rejecting BACC proposals ref Scope and the RJs can I mention a couple matters:-

1. In BACX CC elections recently the two reps who conducted these discussions received overwhelming endorsement of their candidature by a greater percentage of all votes cast than any other members. Clearly CX pilots do not share your views therefor and like what has been said and done in their name.

2. The BACX CC newsletter to its members explaining in depth the rationale of its rejection is in wide circulation and anyone who genuinely seeks the truth (as opposed to casting ignorant aspersions on the integrity of clearly indentifiable members of CX CC on this forum) should read it.

Have a nice day

AOG007,
BACX CC=Company Council.

Tiny Tim,
I have spoken to reps who were at the meeting where the bust up happened. I have read the letter from your company council to your members. The longer this situation goes on the more likely it is that you will start losing people. I hope that the support holds out and that nobody loses their jobs!

Well we certainly seem to have drifted away from the original thread here regarding possible base closures/rationalisation and disposal of the J41s although this is typically what happens on these boards!
Nobody appears to have come up with anything to support the original claim so we'll treat it merely as someone's speculation.

Yes Sarl a bad case of thread creep...However.....In reply to Atropos, Can I say that your concern for the welfare of your CX brothers and sisters is indeed touching. Not a virtue may I say otherwise much in evidence....

Any contraction will be greatly assisted if not obliterated by the repatriation of your young cadet colleagues who we are presently nurturing. Their ample and privileged terms including final salary pension schemes do not rest comfortably with many of us in CX who will have to work until 60 and then find further employment to keep off state benefits.....

Hows about ...you in BA get on with your own lives and we in CX do the same...and we don't tell each other what to do?

By the way, most of us dont want your RJs anyway-certainly not with all the strings attached by BACC. So to those of you at LGW ....enjoy your touring rosters! You may be doing them for some time.

Tinytim,
I'm not trying to tell you to do anything! I'm just telling it how it seems from here. I agree, we should just get on with living our own lives, it would have been nice in an ideal world to have come up with an acceptable deal that brought us all closer together. The deal you were offered was not a great one but I'm sure could have been improved on with sensible non-throw the baby out with the bath water type negotiations. I think that is the opportunity that you have missed, nothing else.

It must be difficult having the BA cadets forced onto you, it's not their fault though, at least give them that. Its this bizarre management team that we have in place at the moment that are causing the trouble.

Your sentiment about the RJ touring is a cheap shot. The crews involved are not deserving of your scorn, they are , after all , ex-cfe! I understand that once our pay deal is sorted out attention will be turned to scope so you will hopefully not have long to gloat as with the pay deal, which may surprise a few in the industry, and scope sorted everyone's lives will be sorted and become more stable.

Here's hoping for a calmer, more friendly world!

There might be something in Citi Ex doing a back door deal with Euromanx. I hear on the news today Euromax are starting an IOM/Liverpool service 5 times a day, on the basis Citi will drop the route because it doesn't feed any onward flights.
Looks to me like an orderly hand over of all Manx routes to Euromanx !

"including final salary pension schemes do not rest comfortably with many of us in"
I presume you'd be happier if they had MP schemes.
What an awful attitude.

Shuttleworth,

At the risk of slewing the post in the wrong direction the point being made is that BA cadets who were not offered a BA contract after Sept 11 but employed by CitiExpress have now subsequently been offered full BA contracts including as we understand it a Final Salary Pension whilst still flying for BACX, when our own newly joined pilots are now denied a FS pension.

Its not a question of sour grapes or envy its a much bigger question of where we sit within BA, does mainline want us in the fold or not, what are mainlines management view of our operation etc etc.

Whatever your views on the BACX CC most of us in BACX do not want to end up on the bottom of a BA seniority list and we will not put up with a scope clause being imposed on us. A look at the mess the American airlines have got into regarding scope clauses should be enough to warn anyone away from that path.

If BACX continues to be a success and grow why shouldn't it be allowed to operate the size of aircraft it thinks best suits its operation. If our mainline colleagues want us all on the same list then something more than the carrot of an RJ aircraft will have to be offered, at the very least a seniority number based on the date of joining Manx/BRAL/CitiExpress for the purposes of redundancy as per CityFlyer I believe.

Amazon Man,
The ex-CFE crew did not get a seniority number based on their date of joining at CFE. They went to the bottom of the BA seniority list BUT have date of joining at CFE seniority for employment protection and staff travel as was their right under TUPE legislation.

If the BACC negotiate a scope clause with the company you will not have any right to reject or accept it, it will not be offered to BACX in any way. This is the opportunity that you are turning down, to be involved and have some influence on the process. If the scope deal is sorted out BACX will have to operate outside the process but will be limited by the agreement to the size of a/c that you can fly. You may not like this, I wouldn't, your only option is to get the BACX CC involved again, it is not too late, and get your voices heard at the highest level.

I wouldn't like to be excluded from a process that could conceivably tie the two companies much closer together. I hope that whatever result occurs you are all happy with it. Good luck with the negotiations and please don't cut off your noses to spite your face.

you can enter whatever agreement you like with BA.

Our CC (armed with an overwhelming mandate from their members) have made it properly clear that they will not repond to threats or pressure to do so neither one which disenfranchises over fifty percent of our workforce - being turboprop pilots.

Since you correctly assert that CX's input is not relevant then please stop going on about Scope. How many different ways do we have to explain NO?

We are not interested OK?

At the end of the day the market will prevail and your little bit of paper called "Scope" wont be worth the paper its written on. So, please guys....stop going on about it. If it makes you feel secure that is entirely your business and we would not presume to tell you what is good for you.....

Ouch! Message received and understood-OUT.

It's time we got back to what we were doing before this amalgamation fiasco. ie flying pax around Europe profitably, but without having to obey rules from an outside organisation (in this case BACC).

The differing versions of scope have only served to drive mainline BA and ourselves further apart. As I stated on a previous thread, it's time to decide 'are we part of British Airways or not?'. BACC argue that we are not and to all intents and purposes we really never will be. If so, fine, but then stop telling us what we can or cannot fly, as well as who we can or cannot employ! During BA's job cuts, the cadets were given jobs within our part of the overall airline thus saving them from the dole, or worse losing them to easyjet etc.

Now we are being told that we must accept mainline pilots on the RJ fleet on their existing terms and conditions above our own crews. Scope version 1 allowed our existing 146 crews access to BA mainline but prevented barbie-jet pilots or worse yet, the lowest of the low, TURBOPROP pilots from the same possibilities. We on the 146 could have been selfish, "I'm alright Jack" and pushed for acceptance, but why? We don't view the rest of our crews in an elitist way (even though we are the senior fleet:p !!!!). Scope as pushed for by BACC is a divisive and insulting proposal.

Worse yet!! Scope version 2 which now says some of our F/O's can be able to bid for mainline, but no-one else! Please find me the plonker who thought up that rationale and elevate them to the highest eschelons (too bored to try a spell-check!) of management. Their total lack of reality makes them very suitable!!!

Now we are supposed to feel sorry for the displace BAR pilots who are to be afforded instant access to the RJ fleet if they so-wish. Not only that, but a tidy little handout each month so that they are no worse off financially. WHY??? What is so special about them? Let's not forget that in fact they are employed by British Airways, not BAR. Their contracts are for BA but SECONDED to the regions, therefore they should not have any RIGHT above BACX pilots. At present, the only crews we should feel any sympathy for are the ex-cfe pilots. They had no choice in being shoved up here into the dank Northwest!

The argument that the RJ fleet are mainline aircraft doesn't really wash. They are due to be transferred to the BACX AOC very shortly, and at that point, we should be allowed to operate them as WE see fit and with the crews that WE employ. If BACC fight to have them kept as mainline, then so be it, but let none of their expenses be attributed to our accounts!

We should be free to grow to serve the markets which we see fit to provide profit to our parent company British Airways without the interference of BACC. At present the situation could be compared to little 5 year old Johnny. Suddenly mummy comes back from the hospital with little newborn Bobby. Johnny throws tantrums and doesn't want any food given to the new arrival. Hinder his growth!!! Pathetic!

Sorry to be so long-winded, but enough is enough, we are either part of the whole picture as equals, or we should be allowed to determine our own destiny.

Rant over! INCOMING! INCOMING!:D