To say a 1000 posts and no facts is wrong.

The photographs and consequent reconstructions were (and still are) very informative, they showed point position of missile to aircraft without doubt, they also showed an airborne break up had occurred, and in what order.

@Teejoo

No, the identification effort hasn't finished yet. But they will soon run out of material.

@ACMS

According to the search maps, that area has been searched but not completely by the dutch. Most interest goes to the areas that have not been searched yet by Ukraine and Dutch investigators.
Because of the gliding angle, it is unlikely that bodies and debris can be found deep into the soil. But you never know.

The maps are here:
Delen rampgebied MH17 door niemand doorzocht | RTL Nieuws
http://www.rijksoverheid.nl/bestande...ering-1600.gif

If you look carefull at the bottom link map, you see that the crash site is partly orange, meaning unsafe area, not searched.

The areas 58 - 75 probably hold only lighter material, like internal panels, parts of the ceiling etc. Little chance to find victims there.

As someonw who had lost some dear friends on this tragic flight, I am utterly dismayed at the political agenda of both the Ukranian as well pro - Russian rebel crowd in regurgitating news reports that serve their patrons.

What is most telling that stymie the investigation is the REFUSAL TO HAND OVER ATC TAPES. :*

Please post news reports about that.

Refusal to hand over tapes
 

Unfortunately the "News" to Ukraine refusing to cooperate is part of the Maskirovka from Russian media system. Intentional with government sanction, your guess is as good as mine.

However it's not factual and a downright lie that Ukrainian ATC or UKATSE would not have handed their ATC recordings to the investigators.

An exert from the interim accident reports states:

The replay of the CVR matched ATC communications with the aircraft (see ATC transcript). The recording also included crew communication which gave no indication that there was anything abnormal with the flight.

Indicating that Ukraine would have provided the transcripts.


Further

2.5.4

ATC transcript UkSATSE provided the recording and a transcript of the radio (RAD) and telephone communications regarding flight MH17.


Spreading ill educated lies, origins of which are from the spam factory is neither helpful nor does it contribute to the discussion but rather diverts the attention away from actual facts and what are known as facts. Same category as the SU25 shoot down theories, a fabrication.

There was a very bias ed documentary on RT this morning pointing the finger at Ukraine, I hope others get the chance to see it as it seemed to be a load of smoke and mirrors, either that or all the evidence so far is only presumed..

The greates help to the investigation would be if someone came, loaded the wreckage on trucks, and transported it to some hangar to conduct a proper investigation.
A chemical analysis could provide evidence of explosives or the abrasion of projectiles.
A blast pattern could be established.
The breakup could be put into context with the timeline.

According to one of the videos, the military of Donetsk's Peoples Republic would grant free access.
But noone is interested. No dutch team, no americans, no EU.
On what are the investigators working now if they are some 3000km away from the wreck?

On the other 777 they are spending millions and millions to find at least a little piece, but on this one they try to write a report without research.
Looks like all "proof" will be supplied by "government sources"...

Whatever the outcome of this investigation will be must be doubted.


PS: Just imagine what it must feel like for the locals to have all this bent metal on their fields, and to have to look at it every day.

>military of Donetsk's Peoples Republic would grant free access

Currently inspectors are on the site gathering people's belongings.

But it is still an active war zone, some 20km from the front line. (very heavy fighting at Debaltseve 10km (or so) from nearest plane debris, 25km from Hrabove)
Untill recently the area has had limited access and the rest considered dangerous.

Other than that, yes, really weird why some of the wreck is still there (only stolen parts moved away).

More... my 100% amateur estimation of the situation on crash zone (under current "ceasefire"):

Rebel motorized howizers and Grad lauchers move around the area to daily shell Ukrainian positions, there might be ammunition flying above the crash site even.
When Ukrainian postitions are attacked, Ukraine artilery radars find out the trajectory of the hostile fire and they most likely fire back to the previous estimated location of the howizer or grad launcher.
Howizers reach 20...55 km depending on ammunition, grad rockets roughly similarly. (I assume rebels do not have the latest far reaching ammunition, though)

So, I could be totally wrong, but as the ceasefire is very fragile, it is insanely dangerous to be on the crash site.

UPDATE: In the following image the yellow line is the front line, it even crosses the MH17 debris zone. Also one can see how close the shells hit.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0uZ5TjIUAAc4-k.png

Safety of the crash site
 

In earlier posts I mentioned the dutch uncle that went to look for the remains of his niece, and who is still in the area. He wrote on Twitter he had to take shelter when a bomb exploded close to his hotel.

MH17-nabestaande in Oekraïne schuilt voor bom | RTL Nieuws

He was very angry that the dutch didn't restart the investigation and recovery effort, but after being at the crash site, and experiencing the fighting around him he, at least in part, has more understanding to the dutch position.

Because of him, Dutch parlement has less understanding of the dutch position, so pressure is put on the kabinet:

"Als burgers zoals deze mijnheer naar dit gebied kunnen, is het toch ook te doen voor onderzoekers", zegt Kamerlid Harry van Bommel (SP) in de krant.

If civilians like this gentleman can go to the crash area, than it should also be possible for the investigators.

A safe crash site does mean something in this case, because the crash site is 30 square km in size, about a quarter or third or so of the rebel strongholds. Something to remember.

handing over the black boxes
 

Because some people think that the rebels were nice to hand over the FDR and CVR to the malayans, some background information might be prudent here.

First of all, shortly after the disaster, the rebels claimed to have found de CVR and FDR more than once, but it seemed that finally they got their hands on the right orange boxes.

Officially the Ukraine government should carry out the investigation. The rebels would never turn the CVR/FDR over to the government, obviously from pure distrust. No party would ever consider that an Ukraine investigation would be independent, even if it was. So the Ukraine transfered the investigation responsibility to the dutch, because they have the most victims and are certainly more neutral and considered a friendly EU nation.

The rebels only wanted to turn the CVR/FDR to Russia and let Russia do the investigation, simply because they trust their ally. However, Russia refused, because accepting the boxes and handing these over to the Dutch would make Russia vulnerable for accusations of manipulation of the boxes. Just like Ukraine, Russia, being a party in the conflict, is incredible as a lead investigator.

Malaysia, Australia and The Netherlands didn't want to go directly to the rebels because doing so would imply a legal status to the DNR or whatever they call themselves. The rebels wanted a public show for the transfer of the boxes, because it makes good propaganda. Malaysia considered the recovery of the CVR/FDR more important than the propaganda gain for the DNR.

It is however questionable, with the rebels who aim at close relations with Russia, and Ukraine goverment who aim at close relations with the EU, that an EU-country like The Netherlands, despite having a history of good relations with Russia, is considered a neutral authority by the rebels. A malaysian or IATA led investigation would not have that problem.

MH17 prosecutor open to theory another plane shot down airliner: Der Spiegel MH17 prosecutor open to theory another plane shot down airliner: Der Spiegel | Reuters

Here is the Original:
Westerbeke: Ausgehend von den vorliegenden Informationen ist der Abschuss durch eine Boden-Luft-Rakete in meinen Augen noch immer das wahrscheinlichste Szenario. Aber wir verschließen nicht die Augen vor der Möglichkeit, dass es anders gewesen sein könnte.
Based on the available information, the launch is by a ground - to-air missile in my eyes is still the most likely scenario . But we do not close our eyes to the possibility that it might have been different.

MH17: Ermittler Westerbeke über den Absturz in der Ukraine - SPIEGEL ONLINE

What I see 'there', is a transcript, in German..

Was the actual interview indeed conducted in German, given that it apparently took place in Amsterdam..(?)

What only could be called 'original', in my book, would be UNCUT recording of the interview from start to finish.

Please also notice that in English version of Spiegel website there is an English transcript, and in neiter of the 2 one can find any clue about the actual language been used, as well as any hint why Spiegel was given such interview in first place.

And the used headlines do differ significantly -

English:
Chief MH17 Investigator on German Claims: 'We Will Need Evidence'


German:

MH17-Chefermittler Westerbeke: "Wissen die Russen womöglich mehr?"

My own question - what else is 'tuned' in the content for the respective reader audiences?

If you allow me to help with a translation from the Spiegel. Reuters omitted one question completely, thus falsifying the understanding of the complete statement.

SPIEGEL ONLINE: Since some time Moskau is distributing the opinion, that the passenger jet was shot down by an ukraininina combat aircraft. You think that is possible?

"Based on the information available, a shooting-down by a ground-to-air missile is the most likely scenario, but we aren't closing our eyes to the possibility that it could have happened differently." .

Hope that helps

Keep in mind that this is the same prosecutor who, after a month of investigation, could only determine with certainty that MH17 was destroyed by "high-energy objects from outside the aircraft". The current comment should probably be taken to understand that they are leaning towards a surface-to-air missile, but they can't rule out a Ukrainian Su-25, a meteorite, debris from a disintegrated spy satellite, or a particularly powerful (high-energy) hex cast on the aircraft or one of its passenger by a voodoo priest.

I wonder why Westerbeke is open to the possibility that the source of the high energy objects was something other than a ground to air missile.

The last Westerbeke was in the news regarding MH17 was Sept. 12 when he said that investigators were particularly interested in 25 metal objects recovered from bodies and luggage. 500 foreign objects were found, but the focus was on 25 of them. This strikes me as selecting a sample to fit a theory rather than examining the whole population of foreign objects with a willingness to follow where the evidence leads.

Dutch hope metal shards will lead them to missile that hit MH17 | Reuters
BBC News - MH17 crash: Investigation focuses on '25 metal shards'

On Sept. 12 Westerbeke seemed confident that the sample would confirm that MH17 was shot down by a ground to air missile. Now, having plenty of time to thoroughly examine the sample of foreign metal objects, Westerbeke is open to the possibility that something other than a ground to air missile was the cause.

What does Westerbeke know that underlies his present position?

He specifically notes that the Russians may have more information regarding this event, so he does not exclude the second airplane hypothesis.
Overall, his comments, including his little aside that it took 3 years to determine who was responsible for Lockerbie, seem very professional.

Maybe the Dutch are waiting for the "irrefutable evidence" claimed by SecState Kerry to be in the possession of the US or the "mountain of evidence" claimed by Obama.
Maybe the Dutch are confused by the entry AND apparent exit holes in the structure remaining of the Captains window frame.

The phrase about "high-energy objects" is from Dutch Safety Board which insists: The prosecutor is What relation prosecutors have to the Dutch Safety Board?

The article you linked says:I take it as 25 pieces of shrapnel from 500 pieces of bodies?

They receive the information from the Board. Unfiltered, contrary to the public. Otherwise they should be completely independent. Findings of the board can not be used as evidence in court.

Because there is no clear evidence? It is good practice to be open to other possibilities unless one scenario is confirmed by clear evidence. It should be fairly obvious that it has been a missile, but you can not rule out an air-to-air missile yet.

That should allow to finally proof which type of missile was used. I wonder whether the dutch get samples of a BUK from Russia/Ukraine for comparison...

Probably most shrapnell looks quite the same, it is a small amount of fragments that are very unique for each type of missile, so it makes sense to concentrate on those.

Dutch Safety Board chairman Tjibbe Joustra said on Sept. 09 that the metal objects embedded in bodies did not appear to be from the 777 fuselage.

Dutch Safety Board Investigation Comes Forward With Details On What Hit Flight MH17

The Reuters article that I cited says "500 forensic samples taken from the bodies of the victims and luggage...", so I'm pretty sure the population size of the fragments is 500.

Westerbeke said in the Der Spiegel interview that so far there are no results from the analysis of the 25 fragments. This is the 50th day after the foreign objects have become public knowledge. Investigators have probably known since late July. After all this time they're not sure if the samples are from a BUK, an R-60, or something else. Hence Westerbeke can't rule out fire from a fighter aircraft.

Meanwhile for all we know 475 other objects wait to be carefully analyzed. This process is painfully slow.

Someone seen damage from continuous rods on MH17 plane? Why again A-A missille used in another lie?
MH17 shot downed by BUK missile's high-explosive warhead with strike elements. Many holes with damage from cubes and cuboids. It sign of this missile!
Not round holes from aircannon (penetration shells), not multiple explosives damages inside plane (HE shells), not pieces of construction cutted by chainsaw - long and uninterrupted (by continous rods warhead like R-60).
Blame, but Earth still dont have fighter which can hover OVER MH17 plane on alt=10000m and shot 500 shells in plane all in one field so these puncture plane from above to below and stay invisible on radars.
It physically impossible.
Any earth gun even in static position (on fixed weapon mount) will place holes on static target with dispersion from point of targetting which descripted by normal circle statistic probability (circular error probality) and shown as Gaussian bell curve. It called in ballistic as Ballistic Dispersion.
That mean no one shell dont go only in target point but usually deviated from it and only random shells hit target very close to target point.
Remember it static weapon mount.
On real fighter, aircannon have very big ballistic dispersion so fighter must carry rapid fire gun (for make enough shots per limited time) and big ammo.
For one-two hits to enemy plane, fighter must produce at least 50-100 and more shots. You can imagine how spread out all these shells if only 2% will hit square 10x10m.
MH17 was not static target but have 300 m/s speed and at least same speed must have interceptor (for pursue and correct errors during interception), Summary it 600 m/s. On that speed aircannon shells must puncture all Boeing from cabin to aft. And dont by stroke but by dispersed holes.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...40/fig3-10.gif
But we can see a cabin with linear distributed big holes from cubes which mean dynamic field of strike elements (Buk warhead) where each element start fly in touch with other elements so they redistributed in space with equal probability (exception non-system elements and pieces of equipment, corpse).
Despite on any personal lie ballistic and physic cannot lie.
DSB dont have expierence in work with military equipment like strike elements from Buk warhead it why they cannot say immedeately what author of damage. And investigation is slow and accurrate proccess when any piece must be descripted, attached and found source/target. Only this make investigation is investigation, dont smoke club.

anonymousdefender

just FYI - the gent recently interviewed by Der Spiegel (Fred Westerbeke) is a CRIMINAL investigator alias prosecutor, and he does NOT work for Dutch Safety Board..

So whatever he says in public about the case, must be bullet-proof alias backed by hard facts and evidence.

Trying to illustrate it with analogues from CIS space (aka SNG):

Dutch Safety Board (DSB) at least as far as aviation is concerned does the same what MAK (Interstate Aviation Committee) does in SNG area (minus Ukraine apparently now).

Mr. Westerbeke, on the other hand, works for law enforcement (investigative branch of it), which probably best compares to 'Genprokuratura' (in recent past) or 'Sledstvennij Komitet' (nowadays) in Russia.

As prosecutore he can talk about evidence, but hard facts is simple - plane hitted by strike elements in cabin from forward and above to below.
Earth (even Germany) have not much sources which can do it. Missile surface-air can do it. Missile air-air can but read below. Aircannon - cannot (even if evidence show it or prosecutors claim they found it). MLRS shell - cannot (very popular stupid idea from russian press/patriots). Explosive on board - cannot.
Shape of holes strip off all possible air-air missiles since they use continous rods. But holes is absolutely hard fact. You can easy see that fact on multiple photos. Dont need to be main prosecutor because even he cannot change that shape.
http://i.imgur.com/2EGBamN.jpg
So hard facts say Buk missile (other missiles have other strike elements btw) down MH17. Germany reject to help Ukraine for gain control over area. Now Germany want evidence. Of course it right time, when russian specialists place all needed evidence signs on controlled place.

The Dutch having a little trouble apparently with 25 of 500 fragments recovered. Probably trying to decipher apparent entry and exit holes from high energy objects in the Captains window area.
Mods, I think ya gotta figure out a way to make those photos of the window frame area look like they are punctured in only one direction.
Or maybe forbid the Dutch from making their unclear statements.:ok:

It was a confusing week in the Netherlands concerning MH17.

First, now the number of identified has risen to 289. There are still remains in the Netherlands to be identified, but identification is very difficult because the DNA has degraded either by high temperatures or by decay.
In totaal 289 slachtoffers rampvlucht MH17 geïdentificeerd | Nieuwsbericht | Rijksoverheid.nl

Today, 31 october, a dutch team went together with the OVSE and recovered remains of victims at locations of the crash site that not have been searched. So when the opportunity arises, something happens.

Last week a journalist visited the crash site to make pictures of the site after 100 days. At the main impac site, he mentioned a stench of human remains, actually seeing a few remains himself. He also mentioned the continuation of fighting around the crash site and that some Ukraine forces had entered some of the areas.

This week there was a lot of confusion, because of the interview of Pavlo Klimkin, the foreign minister of Ukraine. He stated that shortly after MH17 was shot down Ukraine didn't mind if the dutch government negotiated directly with the rebels for access to the crash site. The dutch government allways stated that direct negotiations with the rebels was against the will of the Ukraine government, and that all negotiations would go through the OVSE. Dutch press jumped on the story and blamed dutch government to act too cautiously after the disaster. However, today Ukraine official statement is that from the beginning, Ukraine requested all countries involved (malaysia, Netherlands, Australia) to use the OVSE for contacting the rebels.

'Nederland was te voorzichtig rond rampplek MH17' | RTL Nieuws

Kiev tegen direct contact met rebellen om MH17 | RTL Nieuws

So it looks like that as long as the crash site is in Rebel hands and there is nothing more than this cease-fire, there will be no real investigation on location. Rebel leaders may state that the investigators are welcome, but they don't state what price needs to be paid to be truely welcome. Reduction of sanctions, international acception of DNR, it might all be on the list.

@NotPegasus and others:

That 500 pieces of shrapnel were found in lugage and bodies, doesn't mean these are 500 pieces of the missile, even most of the 50 pieces of metal might not be from a missile. Unfortunately, because of the nature of the accident all kinds of particles get embedded into the lugage and human remains. Check the coroners report on TWA 800. So most particles are either from the plane or stuff on board, propelled to supertornado speed by the 800 km/hour wind entering the cabin.

My point about the population of 500 foreign objects is not about the origins of the objects. Rather I question how the objects are being examined.

If you want to know something about a very large population it might not be possible to survey each and every member of that population. Instead you examine a sample of the population that you hope is representative of the population. You do this at the risk of sampling errors which result in findings that do not accurately represent the population.

Given a population of only about 500 objects, why examine carefully only 5% of them? Why take a chance that the sample does not represent the population? Why examine in a way that undermines confidence in your findings? Do they lack the resources to do the job?

The investigators say they have narrowed the possibilities to two scenarios, a ground to air attack and an air to air attack. A population of 500 foreign objects might be large enough to confirm one of the scenarios. But their approach can lead to undesirable outcomes, namely that they reach the wrong conclusion or (as seems to be the case) they reach no conclusion. They've asked the USA and Russia for more evidence. The USA and Russia might wonder why give the investigators more evidence when they don't utilize fully the evidence they already have.

A population of 500 objects might reveal not only the method of attack but also the sequence of events as MH17 fell to earth. By limiting themselves to a sample of 25 objects they are limiting what they can learn. Why?

May be because they are professional forensic investigators, not statisticians.

P.S. Why are you making bold statements based on almost zero information? Are you a member of the investigation team?

They are not performing an exercise in an undergraduate stats class; they are interested in what caused a single instance (namely the downing of an airliner over Ukraine 4 months ago. The composition and statistical properties of a population of recovered fragments is not particularly relevant or interesting to the investigators (one would presume that most originated on the aircraft). Their objective is to find and identify at least one fragment that originated from outside the aircraft. Thus, a sampling strategy that maximises the probability of analysing such fragments (e.g. picking iron fragments and ignoring Alu ones) is an appropriate one in this case.

Iron has been mentioned before in the context of the sample of 25 embedded objects. Dutch chief prosecutor Fred Westerbeke described the samples as 25 pieces of iron. At that time (Sept. 12) he was investigating whether the pieces came from a ground to air missile.

It wasn't reported whether any of the other 475 embedded objects contained iron. It wasn't reported whether they also examined all foreign objects for metals other than iron, such as tungsten, that are hard and dense enough for military application as penetrators.

The comfortable assumption is that the investigators are professionals who of course are interested in any and every foreign object that could have penetrated the aircraft. Perhaps they will say so eventually, but so far they haven't.

The Dutch Safety Board has commissioned the recovery and transportation to the Netherlands of wreckage from flight MH17.

Dutch Safety Board | Investigations & Publication | Investigation crash MH17, 17 July 2014

Recovery
 

Yes, they will finally recover the parts and send these to the Netherlands, probably to Eindhoven. The chairman of the DSB has already been interviewed about this.

The last few days there were a lot of developments: first the news that Ukraine, OVSE and the rebels were negotiating over the recovery of the wreckage, and just a few days later the confirmation that recovery will start soon. Recovery will be carried out by SES (same organisation that recovered most of the victims), parts will be transported to a safe location outside rebel area and transported to the Netherlands to a location in the south. Originally, the reconstruction was supposed to take place in Kharkov, but with Russian soldiers reportedly massing around that border, a different location is understandable.

The stories also indicate that dutch DSB investigators are on the crash site or at least have visited the site, to arrange the recovery of the wreckage.

The interview with the chairman is here:
Wie gaat het MH17-wrak bergen? En 6 andere vragen | RTL Nieuws

Also human remains were recovered in the last few days, and will be flown to Eindhoven on saturday. It seems that the relative rest on the crash site leads to some major leaps forward in the investigation. The dutch investigators are protected by the rebels.

See:
Onderzoekers MH17 beveiligd door rebellen | Rampvlucht MH17 | de Volkskrant
Andrej Poergin, vice premier of the rebels, also states that recovery of the wreckage can only start in 1 - 2 weeks.

The volkskrant also interviewed the rebel leader Aleksandr Chodakovski, who previous claimed that the rebels didn't have a working BUk system, but that he heard stories about a buk systems being used by the rebels in the area and hinted Russian involvement(in short, I do this on memory). I believe this was an interview with Reuters.
But in this interview he declares that the rebels did have operational BUK-systems, but that none of the commanders fired the missile that brought down MH17. He says he was wrongly cited by Reuters.
Not on internet, but in the paper variant of his interview he also claimed that Russian soldiers didn't fight in Ukraine, but had no comment if Russian troops were in Ukraine. And that only a political solution would end the war.

Contrary to his words, the tension seems to rise in Ukraine again, with Russian close to the border all up to Kharkov, unmarked trucks in Donetsk and Rebels and Ukraine government blaming each other for ruining the truce. Let's hope nobody starts an offensive in the next 2 -3 weeks.

'Wij hadden raket, maar haalden MH17 niet neer' | Rampvlucht MH17 | de Volkskrant

A lot of new pictures

https://www.flickr.com/photos/128537380@N08/

Oh dear...
There is a lot of corrosion on some of the parts by now where the shrapnell or rupture exposed bare aluminum.
So if there ever has been chemical evidence of foreign metal particles or residues of propellant or explosives, it is probably destroyed by now.
What a shame.
The cockpit section would have been a single truckload, why has it not yet been recovered ?

Today the German Foreign Ministry has played down an Oct. 19 story in Der Spiegel. The story claimed the the BND (Bundesnachrichtendienst intelligence agency) has ample evidence that the pro-Russian militia captured a BUK missile from the Ukrainian army and used it to shoot down MH17. The story was based on statements by Gerhard Schindler, president of the BND, on Oct. 08, when he was holding a secret meeting with members of the parliamentary control committee.

The German Foreign Ministry said that the story's interpretation of Schindler's statements was incomplete and arbitrarily taken out of context.

http://rt.com/news/203995-germany-in...e-report-mh17/

More new Pics.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/jeroen...7646920425903/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/podpolkovnikvvs/sets/

A Page with a lot of Information
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17....hot-down-mh17/

"The cockpit section would have been a single truckload, why has it not yet been recovered ?"
Nobody wants to know - the truth is too embarrassing

The latest nonsense being presented by Russian media.

Claims of it being leaked and taken by a "US or British satellite" :rolleyes:

https://img1.1tv.ru/imgsize640x360/PR20141114180250.JPG

https://img1.1tv.ru/imgsize640x360/PR20141114192213.JPG

https://img1.1tv.ru/imgsize640x360/PR20141114192215.JPG

https://img1.1tv.ru/imgsize640x360/PR20141114192217.JPG

https://www.1tv.ru/news/leontiev/271824

It is a Fake.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/cla...own-mh17.5107/
?????
http://obkon.ucoz.com/_fr/14/9771894.jpg

That image (7406*5000 pixels, 1.5MB) can be downloaded here (the "Скачать" button). Part of that image from website of Russian 1st TV channel:
https://img1.1tv.ru/imgsize640x360/PR20141114192215.JPG
https://img1.1tv.ru/imgsize640x360/PR20141114192215.JPG
Compare with a screenshot:
http://4put.ru/pictures/max/1023/3142965.jpg
It's a (cropped) screenshot of
http://old.wikimapia.org/#lat=48.206...5&z=12&l=0&m=s

1. Note the 2 km ruler in the lower right corner of the screenshot. If looking from the lowest possible orbit (160 km from satellite to ground, 150 km from satellite to the plane), the plane appears 5 km long.

2. The image depicts the plane over Panteleimonivka village in Donetsk region:
http://wikimapia.org/#lang=en&lat=48...89349&z=12&m=b
MH17 flew 13 km to the north:
https://gist.github.com/trolleway/b4f513941817ebcd946b
http://4put.ru/pictures/max/1023/3143024.jpg