Is that not one of the primary instrument displays (none are visible in the nose wreckage, only the standbys)?

It's definitely a screen of some sort, and it's the right colour.

Thanks, JamesT73J, TwoOneFour

Then the side with the smoldered whole is the top.

http://cdn-www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/aviatio.../3/0561319.jpg

Note that men shown in video referenced by Cappt are from Ukrainian Ministry of Emergency Situations (i.e. a division of the government in Kiev).

If that pfd is where it fell that looks like the mine/slagheap where the first debris was found.

Given how blackened and burnt is the central wiper lower part of the windshield frame shown in the middle of the picture below, it is not surprising that a primary flight display module would have a shrapnel entry wound on the top.

The missile must have exploded right in front of the cockpit.

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jer...s/14717505025/

Reckon it's been moved. Looking at the ground it's on, wouldn't the unit be more distorted by the impact?

It looks like locals having collected what they found in the surrounding fields. I would also guess it's close to point 1 in the google map embedded in this link:

Exclusif-Notre enquête sur les lieux du crash. Comment le MH17 a été abattu - Paris Match

Thanks for pointing this out. I totally bought the story the first time I watched this video. Just another piece of evidence in the outragous propaganda war surrounding this tragedy.

Actually the fact that the central wiper part was not blasted away completely and has no significant shrapnel damage and the fact that the glass of the pfd wasn't blasted away either, tells something about where the vector of the shrapnel did *not* point to. And that seems to apply for the rest wrack too.IMHO.

Yea, I was thinking the same thing - the penetration could have come from the top port side where the rest of the shrapnel marks seem to be, then the plane flew into the speeding heat-ball from the explosion causing the blackening.

You may wish to consider given SA-11 @ M4.5 vs 777 @ M0.8

Tan box ??
 

oleole 964 said A close look seems to show a broken glass screen- the tan color ** could** mean it was one of the displays in the cockpit

It obviouslsy ahs been moved-picked up and piled with other stuff

What is interesting is the blackened hole in the top and what MIGHT be some shrapnel holes. IF so - it could be further evidence that the main hit was near the front/side of cockpit..

I'm sure the people on the scene now investigators will be able to establish JUST where it was and EXACTLY what it is ..:sad:

I'm no photoshop guy:
 

http://s29.postimg.org/q8ynyurg7/frame.jpg
source :https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BtJZ75iIIAA6Ry-.jpg:large

The window frame actually must be port center.

Thanks to @Wantion it can be seen on this image:
https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hpho...53923025_o.jpg

The center part is only very moderately peppered and still somehow attached to the flight deck.
http://s27.postimg.org/43iqqc4cz/wiper.jpg
Source: the Akkerman pictures

Please read my post and watch the video again.
I'm not saying wreckage hasn't been loaded and driven away from the site, but the shot at 3:25 does not show it!

If a team of rescue workers, who could be personally identified, are being accused of wrong doing they deserve the benefit of doubt.

Jeroen Akkermans has posted a new album... here

Some interesting pictures. Particularly these ones.
Looks like it come from the port side of the fuselage just under the S and Y in the Malaysia logo. Quite a ways back from the presumed detonation point of the missile and seems to show an fragment penetration from the inside out.

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jer...7645908125941/

https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jer...7645908125941/

Also shows some heavy steel pieces, possible missile fragments?
https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jer...7645908125941/

From 3:24 to 3:27 it shows them taking something I can't identify (but not body parts) to a large van and the audio has the correspondent explaining they've been watching plane parts being driven away. But you're correct that video doesn't show the vehicle actually in motion.

The emergency workers themselves said in a few interviews that they too had to comply with the rebels demands pointing out that the rebels had all the guns and they had none. I believe I read the emergency workers were out of a local donetsk office in rebel held territory but part of the Ukraine government. If that's true seems like they'd have fled or been dead long ago. Lots of strange relationships.

Just trying to figure out why the paint is still on the shrapnel-peppered aircraft skin attached to the rearmost cockpit window frame, and the paint is totally burnt off the skin below the forward cockpit window frame. Seems contradictory to me somehow.

I can but assume something like an explosion some 50 feet ahead and to the upper left of the cockpit such that the shrapnel arrives a microsecond before the plane flies though the expanding cloud of burning gases that scorches the nose of the plane but not the sides.

I can't find any details on the makeup of the sa-11 warhead other than weights, no frag sizes, expansion rates and patterns, etc. But in reading about HE Frag warheads in general it seems the larger more or less uniform and heavier frag pieces travel further at higher sustained velocities than much smaller pepper and small sized, lower mass projectiles. The speed of the small low mass bits falls off quickly.

The center window section that's burned seems to have a lot of much smaller penetration holes. I'm wondering if that could be bits of the warhead casing that are smaller than the main frag pieces. If this is the case it would suggest that the detonation would have had to be really close since the tiny bits still had enough speed and energy to make holes in the center window frames.

and the beat goes on....
 

From my one close-up view of a SA-2 exploding about 1000 meters in front of me over Hanoi...............

The SA-2 had over twice the warhead explosive weight than this missile we're talking about now. The thing was tryng to hit the flight in front of me/us, but the jamming pods worked and it exploded just behind my buddies, and I/we flew thru the smoke a few seconds later. 20,000 feet or so.

The actual trajectory of the missile that brought down MA17 is still TBD, so I do not understand all the discussion. Who cares? Meanwhile, a video of a large aircraft that has an explosion and then a burning right wing has been removed from You Tube. It was alledgedly MA17.

( ??? ?????????? ????? ??-30 - YouTube) .

From my personal experience, this looks about like I would imagine. No instant confetti, but a fairly intact aircraft for over a minute until spars and/or other stuctural components melt or fail ( see the report on space shuttle Columbia). A pretty good fire on right wing root, but no big pieces falling off.

We only had a few planes that became unglued within seconds ( was there for a few tours over a 7 year span). Most of the B-52's that were hit in December of 1972 survived for many minutes. enuf war story stuff.....

The benefit of a good analysis of the impact angles and initial damage, then final structural failure modes can help the manufacturers build better planes in the future or improve the existing ones.

Nevertheless, it's interestng to see all the banter from folks that have never been shot at or hit by air defense weapons.

OleOle, (#964)

That is one of the 6 identical displays (refer link below). Notice the lower right hand cover has a knob. Your picture shows the unit in its upright position. That means large piece of shrapnel hit it from the top. I am guessing it is the captain's PFD or ND.

https://www.google.com.my/search?q=b...2F%3B640%3B426

Looting and wreckage removal.
 

Ive studied the timeline and source of the first reports of the rampant looting at MH17.
These reports were subsequently repeated around the world and "looting" seems to be interchanged with "wreckage removal".

The majority of reports originated from two journalists with Ukraine backgrounds who were on scene a few hours after the event.

Both guys apparently do not have a internet presence (twitter or Facebook) or reports published before the Ukraine conflict.
It is if they setup shop as freelancers to document the conflict. I say "shop", but there is no money in shooting a fringe conflict, $25 for a picture, $100 for video. Either you are motivated by pursing a photographic career or you are passionate about a niche subject.

There is no resume or record online of their experience, training or qualifications.

Incredibly, one of the guys spoke of the heartbreak of seeing victims so he searched though baggage to recover passports and tickets so he could return them to family!

There is no question about the passion they have for their country and commitment to recording the conflict, bravo for that, but with such passion comes a susceptibility to being overwhelmed by events. Without any management or oversight it is easy to overstep the boundaries of ethical journalism (if they have ever studied it).

In my view, they do not present as impartial, experienced nor professional journalists.
Yet they were accorded "special correspondent " status by Networks and newspapers around the world.


Of the several other professional photojournalists on scene that I have either spoken or written to, none have seen any looting.

Whilst the monitors were not around in the first 24 hours, this report from
Sabrina Tavernese, a Journalist with NY Times, who was also on scene the day of the crash, serves to balance those initial reports.

On July 24th Sabrina wrote
There have been widespread reports of looting, but Mr. Bociurkiw said his monitoring group, which has now spent more time at the site than any other, had not seen any. The Malaysians said they had seen valuables in the fields untouched, he noted, including a bottle of duty-free perfume, auto parts, backpacks full of belongings, a watch and some jewelry.

As with the myopic hysteria about systematic looting, shots being fired at monitors, obstruction and disrespect for victims I've yet to see hard evidence of wreckage being removed.

History suggests that a small number of cases of looting occurs in such a disasters as has occurred with Lockerbie, Space Shuttle and train crash disasters in France and Spain.

The more images and unedited video we see the better, but it is a dangerous matter indeed for the world to assume a freelance locally based photojournalist is not biased.
So beware the opinions from the first on scene in a conflict zone, it may be a passionate local freelancer, in lieu of a professional journalist.

yet another photo with holes
 

http://cdn.salzburg.com/nachrichten/...1-53854440.jpg
click img to enlarge.


This video shows a BUK intercepting its target:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWTE...youtu.be&t=21s

Hi gums,

This video shows the An-26 shot down a few days before MH17.
See shape of the plane, not a 777; and blue sky, when people interviewed on the ground for MH17 said it was cloudy and they couldn't see at altitude.

Paris Match
 

Few people seem to know about the Paris Match reconstruction. First a brief note about a piece of debris here: article.

Then a larger reconstruction with a map which looks quite similar in details to the map produced by one of the users here: Paris Match Piece, "Crash MH17" Google Map with photos by Paris Match

The Paris Match piece has been linked to before I believe. Their map contains a lot of photos that haven't been seen before (warning, many are very graphic). I will not link to them directly, but they can be found in the following folder:
http://cdn-new-europe1.ladmedia.fr/v...sMatch/alfred/

...with names that can be found by looking at the html in Google Maps, for instance P1_001.jpg (early photo of main debris field), P5_001.jpg (debris), P9_043.jpg (business class seat, no shrapnel damage), P9_044.jpg (further pieces of small debris in wheat field), P9_046.jpg (business class seats and section of plane skin).

Many of the photos included in the Paris Match map are hitherto unseen. They may contain more pieces of debris away from the main site.

CloseUp Of Port Side Cockpit Floor Punctures
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veG7dcmp4_g#t=60

Freeze Frame @ 1:06

Trajectory of Shrapnel ?

Anyone see any possibility of second missile ?

There is some discussion ongoing concerning about the visible damage of the cockpit section and how that could be conclusive concerning the inbound path of the SAM and distance of explosion of the warhead or the type of warhead.

The following link has very good information about the BUK1 system and also pictures about the structure of the missile.

9K37/9K37M1/9K317 Buk M1/M2 / SA-11/17 Gadfly/Grizzly / C????????? ???????? ???????? ???????? 9?37/9?317 ??? ?/?1/?2

Few points I like to point out:
The diameter of the mxl without the winglets is about 40cm, with wings about 86 cm(later types 120cm), the length is 5,55 meters. Most uninformed people think the warhead being at the pointy end of the mxl, which is not the case. There the seeker head with the semiactive radar and all the electronics are located in a space of about 1 meter from the tip of the mxl to the warhead behind.The warhead is designed to explode to the forward and outside, thus not only fragmenting the warhead casing to the designed fragmentation pattern, but also the 1 meter long guidance unit in a random way. Therefore the damage pattern might not be consistent with what's expected from the warhead fragments alone.

The part after the warhead will be less effected from the warhead detonation and could therefore be found in identifiable proportions, especially the wings and the hull of the solid rocket propellant. The location to look for such items would be close to the cockpit section, where the explosion most probably was nearby. If somebody would like to trick with evidence, then the first task would be to search for such missile parts and get them out of the way.

There was one picture published where a greenish O-ring gasket like those seen in joints of missile sections could be seen. But it was hard to judge the diameter and i have no knowledge if such sized gaskets are used in the 777.

maybe this
 

and this
 

In the video Wantion posted, I noticed the "rocket" portion of the missle continued on after the warhead detonation. As RetiredF4 noted, the warhead design would likely leave the rear portion of the missle somewhat intact. Which means besides the frag damage, there was also a catastrophic impact somewhere from a 40cm steel log going mach 4+. It is likely it passed through and out the other side.

Retired F4:
Just guessing I am, that the detonation and high energy shrapnel happened close to but not inside the structure of the aircraft near the nose, probably initiated with the missile's proximity fusing. Again, guessing, but I suspect the non warhead parts of the missile flew right on by the jet and careened to earth.

Was once a phellow Phantom phlyer as well:)

There are now some interviews in mainstream news with families saying that victims' credit cards and phones are being used. True or not, they appear to be real interviews with real relatives. But, as you say, looting has happened before elsewhere and will happen again.

The site is now so well documented by video and photographs that I can't see any point in attempting wreckage removal.

Quite the opposite today. The observers said that passports were found today that weren't there yesterday in that same location. Not sure if passports qualify as wreckage though.

It is true
 

Locked myself several civ planes with optics during training. Once the radar was on accidentially, but I switched off. Without countermeasures on our (TELAR) radar you see something similar (cone/sector), if you are under radar lock. Actually the optics and image processing capabilities were so good, that you can lock to a person also. Or a rabbit. Can not disclose range for that, classifed info. This was not BUK.

Driving back to Russia would be insane
 

BUK TELAR uses 600 kg/h of fuel, when operational. So there is reason to put it on trailer. Especially in areas with compromized maintenance capabilities.

Shear and tear
 

Just shear stress on the same line with rivets. This is the intact side and the other side of panel most likely peeled off or taken explosive/implosive forces (no way this could of just pulled apart).

Mudman . . .
 

A fragment can enter one side of the fuselage and easily exit another. A photo as such by itself would not necessarily suggest a blast originating from the inside. :ooh:

First details from black box
 

First details from black box leaked? by investigators?

Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 black box findings consistent with blast - CBS News

On ground Al-Jazeera reporter tweets about armed Ukrainian military moving towards crash site right now. https://twitter.com/nazaninemoshiri/...37851275116545

starboard window of flight deck ?
 

http://s17.postimg.org/6hderax0f/cbs.jpg
http://s8.postimg.org/d5dbg60g5/starboard.jpg
as evyjet notice below it's mirrored (http://cdn-www.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!/aviatio.../5/1941507.jpg)

Or probably the upper left corner of that window?
http://s27.postimg.org/y5bskvmdv/cbs_rotate.jpg

To Johnnik:

Yes, it would be interesting to know where and when this video was taken in Ukraine with active BUK radar. Actually Ukrainians must explain this. If there was a mistake, then such deployed systems would allow making mistakes.
But there are some problems with Ukrainian BUK's.
1. Why should Ukrainians shoot an aircraft that has flown through the whole Ukrainian territory and is about leaving Ukrainian airspace at flight level where Drones do not fly from direction that usually only friendly aircrafts come?
2. I doubt if Ukrainian Buks were physically able to shoot that aircraft down at that certain spot, deep in rebel territory. Buk wouldn't have that range for that height.

Instead of rebels whe removed their videos and postings, this particular video is still available. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3MomxNHnUA