From memory Min. altitude to 'dump fuel' is 6,000ft.Possibly to ensure it vapourises prior to ground contact.

Dont forget you can see it occur on Webtrak..

Folks,
Without trying to over dramitise this, when the full story emerges about this accident, it will become clear how close we came to having a major incident in Melbourne last night.

The aircraft in fact took out the R16 localiser main and monitoring antenae.

Anyone who knows Melbourne will realise how low this dude had to be to do this. Don't know how he missed the strobes. Don't know how he cleared the boundary fence.

As someone else has said, wait for the ATSB report - i guarantee it will be chilling.

Jo'burg all over again ? :confused:

C0372/09 REVIEW C0371/09
ILS RWY16 'IMS' FREQ 109.7 NOT AVBL
FROM 03 201610 TO 03 230700 EST

If he took out the localiser antennae then that would have to happen on the subsequent approach wouldn't it? You are right.... how low was he?:ooh:

CK
No, he took out the antennae on departure - there were tracks (probably jet blast) in the grass off the end of 16.

Like I said, chilling.

Noone on that flight should bother with lottery tickets from now on - they have used up all their luck!!

Tailscrape
 

Any bets on this being another case of incorrect info being used to determine V Speeds and thrust settings, just like the SQ B747 out of Auckland which used figures 100000Kgs less than actual resulting in a 500 metre tail scrape and getting airborne just above the stall at reduced thrust!!!!

EK still using the Maltese Cross for rotation?

As long as you're above 6,000', no detectable vapour will hit the ground.

Isnt le'bus and its flight laws meant to prevent over rotation on t/o to prevent tailstrike.? Or is it in direct law (or whatever they call it) and anything goes at that point?

Obviously more to this than just that, if he took out the localiser...... which seems somewhat incredible.... how long is the runway?

It doe's have tones of the SQ "incident" at AKL a little while back, as well as the one in JNB. It makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck to think of the cockpit atmosphere in last few hundred meters of the rwy! :ooh:

T/O performance data errors have been a recurring theme in mishaps for the last couple of years, perhaps it's time for a closer look at more double checking/belts and braces systems for performance data, before one of these 'incidents' produces a less happy ending?

I do feel for the Crew though, very much a case of " there but for the grace of god... "

Buggs Out

P.S. Ymml rwy 34 is just under 12000ft, assuming they used the full length.

So to take out the localiser during takeoff - takeoff must have been on RWY16.... last time I checked LOC antenna at far end of runway isnt it? ..So scraping bum of airplane... from Juliet to Kilo......only just airborne at threshold of 34...and collected antenna shortly after?


Is this right or do I have it arse about?

No Doug - we've never used that stupid cross for the rotation (although for a while when we first got the 340s that's what the training dept was bandying at us - I ignored it because one should be looking out of the window)

CK, (as pointed out by blueloo, (beat me to it))The 16LLZ aerial is at the far end of its namesake runway. ie. 34 T/Hold end. I'm sure you knew that, just a slip of the "old fella" memory probably.

BlueLoo, The flight control law on take-off is 'DIRECT LAW' and pitch transitions to 'NORMAL LAW' 10 seconds after liftoff. (Roll transitions from direct to normal 5 secs. after lift-off) :ok:

ps. When you find yourself that far down the runway and still using your drivers licence and not your pilots licence, heaving the bloody thing off the runway is exactly the right and only thing to do.

How else can this happen? You got using the cross incorrectly, maybe using incorrect T/O wt / Thrust. System failure or pilot incapacitated. No blame game but genuine interest in probable/possible causes.

Yes folks, you have it correct.
Departed off R16 - took out Loc antennae off end of runway/threshold of 34.

By the way. the near beam antenna ( the one that is the monitor for the status of the ILS) is only about 5 feet high I'm told by the techs. And he hit it!!

Pushing the noise levers to the TOGA detent will give immediate FULL THRUST no matter what's in 'the box'.
I would be very hesitant to be critical of the crew until the facts are known. Another consideration for this type of take-off profile would be to check the actual loading of the freight and passengers as opposed to the load sheet theoretical loading.
I have no knowledge of the event, but if it was me, I'd hope to be given a fair suck of the sav.

So if I am interpreting the "facts" presented so far, it appears that they took off on Rwy 16 with approx 5kts tailwind. Can any EK drivers let us know if this service was planned direct to Dubai & how the take-off performance should have been using Rwy 16 with 5 kts downwind at such a heavy weight?

Anyone possibly know the departure runway and the flap configuration used for take-off? (Flap 1+F, Flap 2 or Flap 3????)

I heard reports today that there were 3 seperate tail strikes observed on the take off roll.
Some speculation that freight may have shifted rearward on rotate causing the stikes.

AA