Grip The Nettle
 

Heat the fuel lines, make sure the pumps don't cavitate, condition the fuel as necessary, and insulate/heat the tanks AND make sure the software/hardware to monitor this works...as in "able to talk to each other"..maybe even developed as one unit!!

I bet $50k that somewhere there is a memo to the same sitting in a desk somewhere..... It is a sad reflection on humanity that problems like this in times of war are solved quickly.

DERG, I am not sure I am following you here.

First you suggest the problem is not identified...

Then start suggesting solutions relating to fuel ice!

As I understand it, the AAIB identified fuel ice as the 'most probable' cause and solutions are being worked upon as we speak, with modified SOP in the interim. So your issue is?

Incidentally, you suggest to...
I would suggest that cavitation was more of a symptom that a cause. And dare I even suggest it was an important clue.

What became of the BA 777
 

It has been some time now since a BA 777 arrived just short of the runway in London, and after the company announced there would be a report out in 30 days (after the incident) all has gone quiet, I do live under a rock, but has anyone else heard anything??

You must live under a rock!!! There is a large thread relating to this incident!! The roll back was caused by a build up of ice in the fuel heat exchange. The plane had gone through some extremely cold air on it's route to lhr. RR has reworked the plate exchange now I believe. The plane was wrote off.:sad:

M.Mouse
 

I did not know it was on the autopilot all the way! It was!, until it reached 108 Kts! Obviously the crew was never trained too utilize the Aux. Power available in the leading edge form of the wing in a dive attitude! Why is everyone flying around on the dumb auto pilot? Where is the control feel! First indicaton of power reduction, nose over into required dive attitude to maintain flying speed, increase dive angle to increase system kinetic energy. Over the fence, flare into a level flight attitude (in ground effect) hold level flight attitude while the aircraft disipates excess kinetic energy and settles into ground contact. Get back to your basic flying skills, dont trust a dumb auto-pilot that will lead you right down to a critical108kts airspeed!

No, that is a possibility which has only been indicated by unrepresentative tests.

There is no present solution, and it would seem that any solution (assuming the basic conditions were as stated in the two interim reports) will involve new behaviour of fuel/water mixtures and a re-examination of ALL existing designs, not just the BA038 airframe/engine combination.

audio/video
 

I see that audio/video captured live at the incident has appeared. I Assume it is new as I have not seen it before? British Airways flight 038 traffic control video, 17 Jan 2008 - Wikileaks

Twitcher

Is it Virus free and has it been validated as genuine?

lomapaseo

Norton didn't find anything wrong with it. It sounds pretty genuine to me.

Here is a direct link to the tape;

http://88.80.16.63/leak/ba-038-air-t...ntrol-tape.wmv

It is confirmed by flight global as genuine recording.

Audio record captures orderly BA 777 crash response

Thankfully, the clip has been erased from another forum on here.. Publishing it almost certainly contravenes the WT Act unless it is published with proper authority.

HD it's on the Flight Global website as per the link above.

Fargoo... That doesn't mean it should appear on here too! Would you like it if you were involved in a major incident and had your words spread all over??

Maybe it shouldn't be on, and maybe I shouldn't have listened, but I did. I have to say the ATC was brilliant and how very cool and efficiently it was handled by all involved give there was no warning at all.

As heartwarming as the response by all was, it only underscores the severity of the problem, and as such, without reflection, deflects directed comment, as it were. In other words, it is off thread.

Likewise the 'Heroism' of the crew. Noted, on other threads.

This problem has not gone away, not as it would be framed openly in the industry anyway, and the 'fix' is a palliative, a poor one.

bear

absolutely... to be honest they certainly deserve some sort of medal :E

HD et al,

It was produced by NATS for internal use, someone needs a seriously hefty kick up the jacksy for leaking it out.

Excuse me!

What's with the attitude? I was just letting you know it's on the Flight Global site too. No need to have a go :ugh:

A little respect for your fellow forum users goes a long way :ok:

Well that's as maybe, how dare people abroad not take note of the UK Wireless and Telegraphy Act 19XX (Yawn)! We do live in the internet age, though, and accessing this stuff from abroad where the UK Wireless and Telegraphy Act 19XX (Yawn) doesn't really have much clout. This is a global village now, and we are all villagers. Unless MI5, MI6, in fact MI7-25 are going to monitor what we download and send suits to beat me up, we might as well learn to accept government imposed censorship is becoming a tad difficile!

It's nothing to do with the WT act, I couldn't give a fig about that.

The fact does remain though that it was an internal NATS production, produced by and for NATS, ©NATS and to the best of my knowledge was never intended to be released outside of NATS. The fact also that it is not the full article but a part of it also suggests it has been removed surreptitiously.

I hope NATS are able to track who had access to it and find out who leaked because NATS has a lot of training material such as this (though not always as dramatic!) containing real r/t and radar recordings of incidents and I don't want to think that I or my colleagues are in store for more stuff escaping into the public domain.

The flight deckers round here might not be too impressed if more escapes either because much of it doesn't reflect particularly well...

It is nice to know that perfection is alive and well in NATS.

However, I was surprised to find your observations here on the BA38 thread.

Perfection is not alive and well in NATS.

The point is that these replays are produced for training purposes so that lessons can be learnt from them. They are not meant to be put on public view where they can be misunderstood and misconstrued as would be bound to happen.

You only have to look at much at what is written on this board to know that that would be a good road to go down.

What is there within the piece concerned that could be misconstrued? The controller sounded under enormous pressure but seemed to do all that was required clearly and efficiently.

The captain of the BA38 used the wrong call sign and transmitted his evacuation command to the tower instead of the cabin, demonstrating how shell shocked he was.

Apart from that a slightly chilling but interesting insight into a very public accident with little that could be misconstrued.

Just saw the video, and it SHOULD be made available if for no other reason to show how professional ATC was and hence to instill a touch of confidence into people. There is is too much negative stuff published that this kind of positive stuff needs to get out also.

The leaking of such an internal document was indeed unfortunate, but probably inevitable because of the considerable interest within the industry and indeed from the wider public. I personally found it fascinating and played it several times.

It's possible that the video may show certain emergency procedures that are best not revealed, or that being an extract from a longer video it may be giving a misleading impression of the whole event. But it is likely that if a sanitised version had already been published to show how well the situation was dealt with by ATC, the leak of this particular document would not have occurred.

I would say that in this specific case the leak actually puts a very positive spin on the quality of the ATC / airport crew response. Not as excuse not to follow regulations but nice none the less.

As Roffa has tried to point out once you move away from a principle of not publishing anything and decide to publish positive things it is only a small step to the point where you have to publish everything and we'll quickly reach that point. Once that happens you'll find that when the outcome is not so positive the clip will be live on 24 hour news with the usual group of self appointed aviation experts passing their unqualified judgement on why somebody screwed up. Do you really want that ?

Were there any lessons learned from the actual ATC content? That's of more interest to me than how/why it was leaked.

TwoOneFour stated:


"Is the "public" somehow a different species? Seems like there's a weird assumption that people in aviation have a different kind of brain, which the rest of us don't possess. Good job we're only employed as neurosurgeons, structural engineers, nuclear scientists and stuff..."

I don't know which of those professions you are employed in but a lot of us on here are are professional pilots. I'll bet you a £ to a bag of the proverbial that you won't find too many of us with the arrogance to post on any forums that exist for neurosurgeons, structural engineers, nuclear scientists etc about the best way to use information from the many incidents or accidents in those industries.

Aviation has a proud history of learning from the inevitable mistakes and errors that occur and there are good reasons why the information derived from those events are treated in the way that they are. I can assure you that merely serving your voyeuristic interest would not be high amongst them.

Rainboe,

http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/38695...er#post5158892

ATC tapes are a free-for-all but flight deck recorders are a personal privacy issue? :\

Never was about privacy, that is a red herring. The airlines, as public carriage, are regulated by a public authority whose mission is the acquisition and maintenance of safe transport. The devices are strictly controlled, but ultimately are under the control of the authorities. Any pilot who is annoyed at 'intrusive devices' is in la la land. If it's embarrassing or unsafe, don't do it.

Listening to the ATC tape, it illustrates how precious little time the crew really had between landing clearance and landing short. Less than 30 seconds (closer to 20 seconds if the 7 seconds between roll back of RH and LH engine are taken into account as well). Apparently everything was still working as advertised when confirming the landing clearance with a confident, routine voice.

I totally don't understand why the recordings would be 'private'. It paints all involved in a professional manner who when put to the test handled themselves very well. Now it's on You Tube (search BA038) it certainly won't be going away anytime soon.

I discovered (courtesy of this thread) over the weekend that this DVD clip had been leaked.

I have explained in a blog on my website how I came about being in possession of the clip, why it went on my website in the first place and was then removed and then the reason behind ‘Speedbird 95’ and the evacuation command. I’m not going to post it on here as there will be some who are not interested.

I am not allowed to give you the direct link to the website as it can be misconstrued as advertising, but if you want to have a look it won’t take you long to figure out if you put my first and surname together with a .com after!

Youtube
 

I see Youtube has started deleting the clip from the site quoting though it is on there several times so it will continually need deleting.

Mmmayday38,

I'm only an occasional visitor of these forums but was drawn back here by the recent appearance of this ATC clip on the web.

I've vaguely followed your story since the accident and was, like many, surprised at what you and your family had to suffer in the aftermath of this incredible event. Like someone posted elsewhere, there is an inexplicable difference in the cultures between here and the US when you look at how our scumbag press behaved towards you and how the US rightly supported that guy.

Anyway, I'm just a passenger, and watching that clip gave me an insight into what happened that day and was a reminder of what an incredible achievement it was by your crew to deliver everyone safely back to their families. Reading your posts here it again leaves a very sour taste in the mouth as to how you have been treated and what you vaguely hint at with BA.

You are a credit to your profession and your family should be immensely proud of you. I wish you the very best in whatever you end up doing for the rest of your life.

Absolutely! ATC tapes are a record of communication between ATC and outside agencies. Cockpit Voice Recorders similarly. CVR transcripts, indeed even CVR recordings end up in the public domain. What makes ATC recordings so special you have to resort to this absurd Inspector Clouseau secrecy? If the Hudson River recordings are freely released under 'Freedom of Information', then I suggest we give up this daft attempt at cloaking everything official in the UK- it just won't wash in the internet age.

You picked my quote about putting cameras on flight decks. I have seen the effect of cameras filming there- use...er...lesss! Total waste of time and money. You see very, very little. Yet they are a big invasion of privacy (as well as a handy place to hang my jacket). So why not put cameras on ATC controllers as well then if pilots are supposed to have them? Shots of controllers talking to Speedbird 287 whilst scratching their arses and blowing their noses and looking at it will go down well with the public!

ahhhh rainboe! you are alive!! see you have kept your gob shut on the BMI / Aerlingus threads lately! whats the matter???? may loose your job to BMI boys??? market forces old boy dont you know !

sorry to bust in on this thread but I had to throw a bit of mud at the gobby git ;-)

I think the previous post has proved why this site has gone downhill in recent years, misguided 17 year old schoolboys spouting cr@p about sums it up! Rather read Rainboe any day. ;)

I personally have no problem with the publication of tapes etc, in the case of fatal accidents then discretion should be used giving due respect to deseased and relatives.

With regard to Rainboe, perhaps Brian Abraham you havent seen the posts he has made re-astraeus and aer lingus contract, he has certainly stirred things up!