New Article - I don't think they mean the tail plane/fin detached itself. The item marked is the cone for the tail escape slide - I think. To my mind that's the bit 'they' refer to as the tail. Or is this obvious?

[IMG]http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b270/cumpas/mad3.jpg[/IMG]

Tailcone
 

The detachable tailcone is what the comission refers to as having detached upon first contact with the ground.

They also refer to this as the first airframe part to contact the ground after T/O.

Forget,

I suspect that, as ever, you are spot on and the report does indeed refer to the cone, as per your kind graphic.

Regards,

Yeah, as usual, different newspaper reporters say ever so slightly different things like if it was all the same.

The all say the tail hit the ground first.

Some say the tail broke/detached itself from the rest of the plane.

Some say the back part of the tail broke/detached itself from the rest.

I think it's safe to assume it was the tail cone, but then again, the whole tail is one of the larger pieces found "intact" and slightly away from the rest of the plane, but this could've happened later.

A second survivor was discharged (the female doctor). 16 remain hospitalised. 1 has gotten worse. 1 is not believed to be able to recover from the coma. 1 remains very serious condition.

PJ2:

Well, if that's the case then you wouldn't be getting airborne again, would you? Combined with such a drag force, a stall would make your nosewheel come down closer to the ground leaving a deeper mark and possibly a gear collapse...

I am just trying to visualize the force diagram at the moment the plane touched the ground... Maybe I am getting old but what I see from those marks is what would be left off on the runway if you would be applying the "crab technique".

I just saw "first hand" parts of the secretary for the accident commission press conference on TV.

-By their regulations, they are required to present a preliminary, factual report (no conclusions or probable causes, just the facts stated), in aprox. 1 month. Actual investigation thought to last several months.

-It's confirmed that the voice recordings and the fly data have been extracted in the UK facility it was sent. They are now being enhanced (voice clarity, etc), recovered & verified.

-He hasn't witness the airport video footage of the accident, but it is part of the investigation and others have seen it.

-Based on marks on the ground, it seems that the airplane first hit the ground outside of the landing strip, on the service route just adjacent to it, touching the ground first with the tail, tail cone coming off.

-Plane kept tumbling ahead for 1200m, bouncing 3 times (matching unlevel terrain marks).

Skidmarks,

I support the theory that:
- acf is in a severe slip to the right when it hits the grass
- tail hit's first (small trail closest to rwy), cone falls off
- left main gear hits ground.
- raight main hits.
- Nose gear hits
- acf straightens its path.
- ...

If there had been a burning engine falling off at this point,
why did the dry grass not catch fire here as it did further down the track? And why didn't it stop in this area like the cone did?

There has been significant LATERAL forces in play here judging
by the rwy exit angle. Rudder use or asymetric thrust.

M

Given the latest reports about the plane "bouncing" doesn't anyone else question how the perfect skid marks in the images recently posted could tally with such a deduction? Or did the bouncing happen after the dip into the ravine. (all this assumes the images are genuine of course).

XPMorten/PassengerDan
 

to me it seems there is some burnt area right at the start of the "third major trail", possibly caused by some fuel leak at engine break off,

The engine is not visible in this picture so if i m right it continued it s track past the ditch next to the road

As Madrid is hot and dry, depending how hard the ground is, there would have been only minimal deceleration when the plane touched down on the grass, so if the drops are several towards the gully, it is not surprising the planed "hopped" several times untill speed had been lost sufficiently for no more lift to occur.

To the pilots based in Spain: Thank you for keeping us updated!

FDR data quality
 

Let me just add to Justme's posting that the comission's secretary also stated that the FDR data quality was better in some channels than others, implying (my own deduction) that data integrity could be compromised in some channels.

I hope this partial lack of integrity does not hamper the investigation significantly.

Investigation Board Report
 

For Spanish speakers, the full 73-minute Investigation Board report in today's press conference can be found here:

rtve.es/noticias - Vídeos - Rueda de prensa Comisión de Investigación del accidente de Barajas

Thanks, but unfortunately the RTVE videos don't load. Anyone else having the same problem outside of Spain?

Same here, the RTVE videos do not load.

For those that didn't find this

A much earlier post regarding the marks in the grass

http://www.pprune.org/4343420-post549.html

Board Video
 

I am viewing it now and will report anything significant in English in about one hour.

I'm seeing the RTVE video without problems...

Though a few days old I found this

Spaniards mourn victims of plane crash - International Herald Tribune

well down the page

Though not free to talk, owing to the investigation, there were no doubt reliable witnesses in the VCR

After seeing this photo above, I believe at the theory of a deployed reverse thrust on the starboard engine, too.

It seems that the aircraft get a severe drift to the right. But the turn was going exclusively along the vertical axis as no wing marks can be detected on the ground.
It can be assumed that the wings where leveled (I believe this is quit typical for tail powered aircrafts in a event of asymmetric thrust) in the moment of the impact.

After touching the ground the right drift was still highly intense and the crew had no control until the front gear was lowered.

In the Moment the front gear has touched the soil (thats seems to be the trail from the left to the right - crossing the trails of the maingears) the crew became back control and could stop the right drift. More than that they could turn the aircraft in an opposite direction but unfortunately there was not quit enough space before the dip.

That’s my 2pence. I know, its speculation again. For the truth we have to wait to the end of the investigation

How can the nose gear go straight when the main gear curves around? Either something was detached and continued its way or something hit the ground at the very end of the airplane when the front/main gear had crossed the service road on a straight and parallel track.

Overall site views:

http://i37.tinypic.com/210bx4n.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/x393wz.jpg

threemiles

How can the nose gear go straight when the main gear curves around?

Try a simple experiment with your hand with the index finger as the nosewheel - it is possible