Discretion or routine extension to FTL's??
 

It seems to me that the UK IT carriers assume and expect the Capt to extend duty to cover routine and entirely predictable delays.Does anyone have personal experience of the result of refusing to use discretion to extend?.Also the third hour which can only be granted "Immediatly prior to the final sector" is taken as granted at the planning stage.Anyone been invited for Tea+Bickies for not using it?

Strange, I haven't used discretion for ages. In my view a well run company should only use it very rarely. IMHO the more discretion is used the more disorganised a company is.

A useful guide for the CAA when giving a company the once over. ;)

If anyone IS invited for tea and biccies for NOT using discretion, they should be writing to their BALPA rep, their FOI Inspector, CHIRP, and their MP.

If a particular route regularly incurs delays, then it will have to be rescheduled. Airlines are not entitled always to plan for the best possible result with Handling delays, ATC slots, late pax, baggage mix-ups, poor routing, etc.

If anyone encounters significant delays down-route, then the Captain, taking all factors into account, particularly the fatigue states of the crew, but mostly SAFETY, should make a decision on whether or not to exercise his discretion to extend the flight duty period.

It is not available to the Airline to question such a decision, unless that be to suggest that perhaps he decided to extend when he should not have done so. End of story.

sky9,

Are you a "holier than thou" attitude Hamster?

Meanwhile, back in the real world, most crews in most airlines use discretion on a regular basis to keep the program running, within the usual guidelines.

Usually this is so they don't get changed rosters on subsequent days.

Minge Coiffeur

Sorry to display yet another holier than thou attitude, dear chap. You said: And there you have it in your very own words. To use discretion "on a regular basis" for whatever reason is utterly unprofessional and, believe it or not, unsafe as well as potentially unlawful.

When you imply that the primary reason it is allegedly so used is for no more pressing a reason than that it is to avoid subsequent roster changes suggests that either your ops/crew scheduling staff know you well enough to rely on this reason as a coercive tool and/or you are so without comprehension of the spirit and purpose of CAP371 requirements that you should be suspended from flying duty for as long as it takes you to have that spirit and purpose permanently fixed in your mind.

Which is it? :confused:

I used 2:45 of my discretion one day during summer of 99 (You can figure out which airline from that).

Got together with my crew, said "Are you guys ok to return?" 1 of the F/A's lived in leeds and it would have been a long drive for her to go home after that day. She said she was ok to return, but would need a hotel room, as she would be too tired to drive.

It was agreed, and we returned. About a week later I found out that the Purser had had a letter placed in her file for the hotel room and not controlling her troops. I went ballistic after that. We had done them the favour, and they penalized my purser for it. Went to the trailers and told them that I was unwilling to do discretion for the rest of the summer, untill they removed the letter from the purser's file.

One overnight in Suda later, they removed the letter and realized who was doing who the favor. But it was just another example of their stupidity.


Cheers
Bohica

My knowledge of UK legislation is a bit dim now but when I last operated on the UK register a pilot could not exercise his/her discretion until immediately before it was required, i.e. prior to thr LAST sector, then only two hours to get home.
The third hour was available for matters concerning safety only, for example arriving at destination to find it unusable so having to divert and use some of the third hour etc. The third hour required a written report to the CAA.

[ 22 August 2001: Message edited by: G.Khan ]

Tilli

thanks you answered the T**T before I could. Minge Coiffure, don't allow your management to bully you into doing something unsafe. The vast percentage of discretions are caused by poor or unrealistic scheduling. If you are not fit to use your discretion don't do it. If you are worried about getting a bollocking just put a tape recorder in your bag or on the telephone.

If you are fatigued or likely to be, send Crewing an email or a fax telling them so. It is a brave guy who would then ask you to use your discretion or have you for "tea and bickies".

I haven't had to use my discretion for some because in the past we had the same problems as you are having. Because we said NO "they" had to change.

Finally copy your email or fax to chirp

Anyone exercising discretion more than once-in-a-while has lost sight of the law on this matter. If the operation has fallen over to the extent FTL becomes an issue then by all means use it if the circumstances are appropriate.

But to suggest we should be doing this on a regular basis is madness. Name that company.

Unfortunately discretion reports of 0-2 hours do not routinely go to the CAA it is only use of the 3rd hour that must be reported within 14? days. The other reports only get looked at on a visit to the company by their FOI.

Shame really perhaps all DR's should go directly to the CAA - But there I am thinking they are there to protect our interests and oversee a safe operation. Ho Hum

Tili,

Dont make me laugh. Whoever heard of anyone in this cut and thrust modern world paying too much attention to the "spirit" of CAP 371. They work us to the max letter of the law. Minge has it right about most companies.nullmost

Is this forum patrolled by Hamsters on the lookout for lesser mortals who work for normal companies???!!

By "Hamsters" I presume you mean those of us who were fortunate enough to be trained at that seat of excellence, the College of Air Training, Hamble - ah, yes, those were the days!

Well let me put my hand up and plead that I was so trained! However, I have spent circa 15 years with the charter airlines so please don't assume that all of us have spent all our years with the "corporations".

Since when has where you have done your training had anything to do with FTL etc?!

Discretion means precisely that DISCRETION and should NORMALLY be used where "circumstances warrant such action". If discretion is being applied on a regular basis with a particular company then need one say more? One presumes the CAA would act in the case?

There are many very skilled aviators who have been trained at many different establishments and we all have a valuable contribution to make but us "hamsters" went to Hamble because we wanted to be professional airline pilots and that's what we were trained to be!

Thrush, I'm very confused by your assesment of a company that always uses discretion as "Normal" and your assessment of yourself as a "lesser mortal". Perhaps you should stop taking things personally and stick to the FTL's. ;)

[ 26 August 2001: Message edited by: BusyB ]

Thrush

While laughing, you might like to think about this, dear chap. You said: You clearly do not even understand the true nature of CAP371. It is certainly not "the max letter of the law". In fact, of itself it does not represent the law at all. I will not go any further by way of explanation here for fear of boring the sad, cynical, likes of you. But, when you have finished laughing, you might like to put your nose to the grindstone and find out where the law is on this issue. In that way, you may then enlighten us all with your newly acquired skill. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

A lot of crews shy away from using the last 3rd hour as they have to fill in a report for the CAA. This is mainly due to the fact they can't fill in the form properly, regularly get the max allowable FDP wrong, don't re-factor when an extra sector is undertaken thus resulting in 3 hr + breaches blah de blah. As for Florida 2 + discretion there's no chance!
And probably 50% of sinners are the Training Captains... :mad: :mad:

Homer's Lovechild implied that his airline assumes use of discretion during the planning stage.

I understood that planning to fly into discretion was strictly forbidden.

Doc C.

Correct, Dr.C, it is.

Some airlines claim that they are not "planning" for use of Discretion, and point to the fact that half-hour turnrounds are entirely feasible, that sector times are sensible, ignoring, for example, the experience that tells you that at certain times of the year you will always get strong headwinds on this sector, that you invariably get poor slots on that route, and that there are baggage loading difficulties at the other destination resulting in half-hour turnrounds being impossible in fact as opposed to the theory.

Airlines are perfectly entitled to plan for the possible on a new route. However, experience must later be taken into account. The use of Captain's Discretion is only available to cover the unforeseen, and only when the crew are, taking all factors into account, able safely to continue the duty.

Any airline that plans (or relies) upon use of Captain's Discretion is planning on a duty that would be illegal in any other circumstances. Any airline that plans on Discretion is an airline that is incapable of planning properly, and is an airline that is inherently unsafe.

We used to do MAN-BJL-MAN (Banjul, Gambia) which is 6 hours each way. Crewing used to roster us into discretion as a matter of course, until the CAA seen what was going on and said "hang on a minute, discretion isnt to be used like that"
The airline werent prepared to night stop crew in Banjul - who can blame them - so we now position crew on the aircraft and swap down route. (Dont forget the mozzy repellant)

Seems to be two worlds apart here.(Charters and scheduled)Being of the flying shellsuit camp may I describe a not untypical day in the crew room during pre-flight.
Crew reports for night Tenerife when scheduled boys are sipping Horlicks and donning PJ's and slippers.Dispatcher announces inbound is running 30 minutes late.Look at flight plans-Scheduled block time=flight time.Told slot is about 2hours after inbound on chocks.Work out if we can do it in hours.Can't.Apply discretion .Go.
We then have to explain to the crew that we "Are not into discretion untill we are half way home so we are NOT dispatching into discretion".Eighty minute turnaround down route plus a late slot puts us into the third hour.Go.Give crew the choice of landing in Lisbon then hanging around for a flight plus deadheading etc or continuing home and getting to beds.Continue.Land at base 2.5 hours into discretion.
Have worked for several UK charters and thats the way it works.

[ 27 August 2001: Message edited by: HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD ]

Yes, but hang on HSL.
CAP371 says

1.3 A crew member shall not fly, and an operator shall not require him to fly if either has a reason to believe that he is suffering, or is likely to sufferer while flying from such fatigue as may endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants.

2.2 Planned schedules must allow for flights to be completed within the maximum permitted flying duty period. The authority when assessing the planning of a schedule will take into account the time allowed for pre-flight duties, taxying, the flight and turnround times.

If you are going 2.5 hrs into discretion the CAA must know about it. If you are going regularly into the 2 hrs tell the CAA about it. The SRG does have a web site.

What I cannot understand is how your night Tenerife is going into discretion unless it departs after 2159. Prior to that time you have 11.15 hrs duty and a Tenerife out of the middle of the UK should take about 8.45. Add 2hrs to that for checkin and turnround which allows 30 mins slack. Loose that with the delay and you still have to do a 3 hr turnround in TFS to go 2hrs into discretion.

At the end of the day, If you cannot comply with either CAP 371 1.3 & 2.2 don't do it.

Wrong, wrong and wrong again. This is totally illegal, and dangerous. You cannot take off from Tenerife without exercising your discretion THEN. In such a case, the company should either send another crew with the aircraft, or position a slip crew down-route, and nightstop the first crew there.

As Sky9 says, if you can't do it within the terms of CAP 371, don't do it. Have you thought exactly who would be the one to be hung out to dry should anything go wrong? I can just see an Operations Manager saying "...that's not what we rostered - they said they weren't fatigued, and elected to continue..."

I say again - it's NOT legal - DON'T DO IT.

HSL,

Well said. That is how it seems to work in practice, but usually it's not as bad as you've described it!

Strictly shouldn't you be jumping off in TFS and having 10 hours in a hotel room?

:cool:

Yes

The problem is this:

Stuck downroute with an air traffic delay or such like, your Capt. tells you that we will inevitably go into discretion. Flight deck and cabin crew alike just want to get home and cannot be ar**d with hotac.

What I am saying is that people are perfectly willing to work even when they are tired. Who would admit to their fatigue being a danger to aircraft safety? I wouldnt. So does that make me negligent?

Yes

Not just a problem in the charter game chaps, our lot have lots of lines of work that start very early, involve four sectors in and out of busy hubs and only leave about 15 minutes grace before discretion is required to finish. A lot of crews now, including me, refuse to operator into discretion unless the company have left a decent margin. Often the response is to position another crew on your last sector to operate back whilst you sit down the back. Only 3 sectors now so legal, same time at work so you might as well keep quite and operate it yourself!.

By the way it IS quite legal to dispatch knowing you are going into discretion but again, unless the company has rostered a sensible margin in the first place I figure well why should I put myself out for them.

The CAA need to take a good look at this part of FTL's, they seem to be changing some of the rules regarding early starts and hotels etc. so perhaps they will tighten up some other loopholes while they are about it.

Sorry to but in but….why is it acceptable for a crew member to live 2 maybe 3 hours from their place of duty.

Get up - 0300
Report - 0600
Of duty - 1600
Home -1900 ………then do the same next day

This is I see as the “Norm” in most company’s charter and schedule. I personally think it makes a mockery of CAP371.
Could you imagine a HGV 1 fuel tanker driver living that far from his place of duty.

OK I`m ready for it give me grief………..

Hugmonster & Sky 9, you seem to have missed the point.On a planned out and back duty you are not dispatching OUTBOUND into discretion.My point is that we all know and it seems (to me) that the expectation is that we will apply the discretion to dispatch down route.There's the rub!.We all know that unscheduled night stops are a nightmare and would rather just get home to the wife/baby/golf/bed etc.Unbelievable though it may seem to non charter/frieght dogs but we often report for a night Canaries later than 2200L.That gives you 10.25 hours for 2 sectors.Throw in some not unusual head winds and a few small delays and you are certainly into discretion ex GLA for example.I'm not defending this practice but it is what happens.Unless they have a full standby crew at base we will dispatch LEGALLY somewhere.The odds are then very high that the crew will want to get home and go the extra mile.

[ 28 August 2001: Message edited by: HOMER SIMPSONS LOVECHILD ]

HSL
I do understand because I have been there, done that & got the T Shirt.

1 The max duty period after 2200 local is 10hr 15 min., not 10.25.

2 I have checked the duty periods to Tenerife that I operate to. They are reasonable but not fat, allow 1 hr pre-flight & 1 hr. turn-round, operated at M0.80.

GLA 11.15
NCL 10.45
MAN 10.30
BHX 10.20
STN 10.15
LGW 10.15

From the above it can be seen that it is possible to operate to TFS from only LGW and STN during the night (Also BRS & CWL) however there are no flights rostered after 2200 because only a small delay would take the flight into discretion. If you have a scheduled flight from GLA or NCL that departs after 2200z it is plainly illegal.

If my memory serves me correctly the SRG require a minimum percentage of a particular flight to operate within the maximum allowable duty period otherwise the schedule is deemed unreasonable.

At the end of the day it is up to you. If you are fit and not likely to suffer from fatigue, you may use your discretion, however as CAP371 Section A 1.3 states "if you have reason to believe that you are likely to suffer whilst flying from such fatigue as MAY endanger the safety of the aircraft or of its occupants"
you must not do it. and neither will you company ask you to do it.

As Chirp recently suggested if you are being put under pressure, ask for a fax to confirm their requirement for you to operate. He won't send it. Any threat is strictly verbal.

One suggestion. If you are delayed ex UK and it looks like you are going to exceed the maximum FTL tell your crewing department that you are unlikely to be able to use your discretion and could they please organise hotel accommodation in TFS.

HSL, further to sky9's excellent points, if you cannot legally complete the duty within allowable duty hours, the company must provide for that. If they are dispatching you KNOWING (or it being reasonably foreseeable) that you cannot complete without going into discretion, they are acting illegally. Therefore, in your scenario the company MUST either provide HotAc or a slip or relief crew.

There are no two ways about it.

sky9

10hr 15min is 10.25 hours.

Nearly Xmas

From what I can remember, CAP 371 does not allow for the distance a crewmember lives away from his base of operations, it is, however, incumbent upon that crewmember to report for duty sufficiently rested to be able to carry out his/her duty.

Like you, I cannot understand how someone who lives as far away as you use in your example can be sufficiently rested to do so. The regulations provide for the case where the airline hotacs a crew further away from the airport then x hours (sorry guys/gals can't remember off the top what it is), so surely it would be logical for them to place similar restrictions on the individual.

Having said that it would be interesting to see what effect the human rights bill would have on that!

Doc C.

My copy of CAP371, all be it the 3rd Edition effective 1 May 1990 shows 10.15hrs as does my company FTL's.

Might it "just be" that a couple of companies have made a typo error or has 371 changed?

As far as living 3 hrs away; surely a pilot should consider his obligations to minimise fatigue. I would have thought that one hr. from your "place of rest" should be considered the maximum that an individual should consider.

Have to agree with Sky9, it is the crewmembers responsibility to live within a reasonable distance of their base. However why do the CAA allow "variations" of max fdp. Maximum FDP should be just that. Why are the CAA allowing airlines extra FDP to suit their commercial needs. Maybe it should be compulsory for all flight ops inspectors to only operate those flights that require a "variation". Then the rules may change.

I have checked, the maximum duty in the period after 2200 is 10.15 not 10.25.

To me, going into discretion to get home is preferable than to have another crew repo down route to fly the sector home while you ride in the back. As is going into discretion to avoid an overnight (somtimes).

Be careful what you ask for as you just might get it: Twice the pairings for the same amount of duty time. I'm sure nobody wants to DOUBLE their number of monthly duty days just to prove a rather minor point.

Maybe that's just me.

Sky9 - What they mean is that 10 hours and 15 minutes is the same as 10.25/10 decimal 25/10 and a quarter hours. OK?

;)

DockJock, how far would you go into discretion to get home? How tired would you have to be to decide to stay put? How do you judge how exhausted a member of your crew is? How do you judge whether they are capable of doing their job? How competent would you be to handle a major aircraft malfunction after x hours on duty (insert the number you first thought of)?

The point here is that everybody is different. To have regulations, you have to put the power to choose to exercise discretion in the individual crew member's hands. Companies are, effectively, removing that decision, and telling crews they WILL come back into discretion.

I accept that you may well be compos mentis enough to continue, and most of us would probably prefer to get home. However, that is your decision, based on circumstances at the time. It is not the company's decision to make. That is where the danger lies.

Can we all stop quoting CAP371and agree that we've all read and understood it(and that 10.25 hrs=10hrs 15min).
Back in the real world and especially in the frozen north with its longer flight times crews routinely exercise discretion to cover run of the mill charter delays.I will bet folding money that a study of stats showing the number of crews hotaced or positioned down route to cover sub 3 hour delays versus discretion reports filed for the same would bare this out.I applaud sky9 and huggy if in reality they dig in there heels at base and say we wont do it but most do for all the reasons already stated(Plus dare I say it "good will" and the fact that the 200 punters down the back really want to go on holiday).At the risk of repeating myself you can always dispatch legally for one sector and we all know that most will then try to get home(Yes, yes having considered fatigue etc blah blah)

I still like the discretion bit a lot more than the way we have to deal with long duties.
In the Netherlands max duty single crew could be 16hrs for single crew and 19hrs for heavy crew (1capt & 2 co-pilots of which 1 is relief capt above 20000ft). This is the law and there are obviously planning margins. But if you fly e.g. AMS-LXR-HRG-AMS and you run in trouble you will be approaching the max duty limit of 19 hours. The dutch law works reverse with yours, it allows you to fly max duty, but the Capt can reduce the duty time by applying a reduction in max hours for filing agreviated circumstances. This could be the case with tec delay, pax bag identification etc.

Be sure if you do this as a Capt, and use the agreviated circumstances to reduce your duty...... Your in for T&B with the chief.


So how will the new European W&R regulations be????

Safety is no accident..... :confused: :confused:

Possibly a "silly addition", BUT
I once knew a [Dan Air] pilot who was latterly based at MAN, but STILL lived at his domicile at NCL. He drove his own car!
we aim to please, it keeps the cleaners happy

Some years ago we were on chocks half way round the worls 2 hours & 57 minutes into discretion. We came very close to a go-round due weather and a 40 minute diversion.

Never, never again. It was quite the most unpleasant experience sitting up there in a stronger than forecast headwind with the possibility of landing illegally.

The company can sack you but the CAA can remove your licence. Stark choice but one that you must keep in your mind all the time.