JMC A330's to go??
 

It is reported that JMC have cancelled the second A330 and are in talks to find a home for the one they have.....Anyone know more?

.....and by the way, I also hear that due to cost cuts they are only giving snack boxes on all flights under 3hrs 30mins. :p

I AM HEARING THE SAME THING. THEY ARE HAVING A HARD TIME MAKING COMMERCIAL SENSE WITH THE A330. LONGHAUL BOOKINGS ARE BADLY DOWN FOR S02 AND NOW I HEAR COMPETING CHARTER AIRLINES ARE ADDING 747'S TO THERE FLEETS FOR PEAK SEASON AT CHEAPER SEAT RATES. THE PINCH IS EVEN MORE ON JMC THAN EVER NOW. :confused: :confused: :confused:

WHAT????

Yikes! I've got an idea---Let's put the Guv
in charge. Right away he will slash salaries, slash morale, and get rid of all new and costly equipment in favor of L1011's.

Yeah....right.

Thanks---Donkey Duke :cool: :cool:

Donkey Duke - if you knew anything about airline (or even business) economics you'd be aware that reducing your fixed (overhead) costs as far as possible is the name of the game. Don't worry too much about the direct operating costs - but if you've got aircraft parked, I'd rather it was fully amortised L1011s than A330s costing over US$1m a month - each! :rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:

In fact, with the price of fuel so low, an L1011 has a lower cost per seat than an A330.

So how's that? :D :cool:

Yeah, well, nobody cares.

We are talking about the fate of JMC's A330s, not L1011's. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Back to the topic . . . Carry on!

SFly

By sheer coincidence, JMC sold their four 393 seater L1011-100s today, for far less than the rental of a single A330 for one month.

Sure, they need some doing on them - but at a comparatively minor cost. Obsession with operating the brightest, shiniest, newest toys (plus trying to merge a shell-suit operation with a quality one) has brought JMC to the point it's at today. A similar reason (the brightest, shiniest kit bit) is apparently the principal cause of BWA's downfall as well - in other words, when the cash stops coming in, there's still a massive outflow required to cover the bills.

The lesson is - stick with older kit. It's cheaper in the long run - and you know it makes sense! :D :eek: :D

Yes, Guvnor, you seem to have all the answers. Remind me, just how many aircraft do you have flying?

Hey Guv,

I agree with your depreciation cost comparison between the new A330s and older, but still flyable L-1011s (I like the L15s). Some carriers continue to use Tristars effectively - I believe Air Transat still uses them - and it will fill them now that C3 is gone.

Still no word on Novair from you - are they bust? Are the A330s VG Airlines will use being wet-leased from Novair (i.e., Novair crews)? What's the word with Novair, Guv?


Cheers

LAVDUMPER - not sure what's happening with Novair; heard that they were having a few problems but nothing concrete.

VG Airlines and its viability has taken a huge battering in my eyes today:

No businessman with an ounce of intelligence should ever say that a business plan is pointless - that establishes your goals, your financial targets and requirements in the form of a budget, personnel requirements, marketing strategies etc. An airline business plan (and I've written a few!) can run to several hundred pages including detailed financial projections.

Under JAR, an airline requires two bits of paper to operate: the Air Operator's Certificate (AOC) which is clearance from your aviation authorities that you're technically and operationally competent to fly the aircraft (ie that you have the correct manuals written, operational infrastructure, quality controls etc). The other is the Operating Licence (OL), which gives financial fitness clearance. To obtain this, you must submit to the airworthiness authority's economic regulation department a detailed business plan and proof of sufficient cash to (in the UK at any rate) cover three months operating expenses assuming nil income.

Here in the UK, this is a 6 to 9 month process.

Once he has those two documents - and only once he has them - he can apply for a DOT402 which allows him to operate to the States. This is another fairly lengthy process, taking several months.

In addition, if he thinks he's going to get SN's AOC and OL, he's smoking something! Those documents are strictly non transferable; the only way he could get them would be to buy SN and make an arrangement with its creditors.

I'd say his chances of being operational by March - based on what I've read here - are nil. Zip. Zero. Nada. Nichevo.

Incidentally, American Trans Air are also intending to keep flying their L15s for at least another 5 - 7 years; as are Air Luxor in Portugal. It's a lovely aircraft - probably the best designed and built one ever.

There goes GUV again, out of touch with reality. Hello??? Lease rates now on fairly new airplanes that are parked in the desert are a lot less than pre 9-11, so picking up a nice new "toy" that sparkles
makes sense-----as long as you have enough capital behind it. Passengers like new and shiny planes. Am I right GUV? Why did JetBlue go after new A320's? Volume discounts with Airbus. But, they could have done the same thing with ILFC or GATX with some cheaper used 737-400's etc. That's what you would have done, wouldn't you GUV?
Go for cheap. PAX satisfaction NOT guaranteed. Maybe JMC could not get out of their high lease rates, and they should get rid of their pair of A330's for the time being---hopefully without an exit fee. But, I am sure they could find some more A330's
available pronto. A330's are perfect planes for long range high density charters. (Alot
more economical than JMC's old DC10's-----that's right GUV!!!You're wrong!---get over it) (Wut wut??)

I hope JMC can keep or eventually replace their current A330's with some cheaper ones.
And to my buddy GUV, it is possible to fly nice new planes with affordable leases---especially in bad times. It doesn't take an economics degree to figure that out, now does it---GUV? What? You're wrong.

Thanks. Donkey Duke :cool: :cool:

Guv,
It's all very well having ageing aircraft plying the longhaul rotes, but passengers don't like it and vote with their feet.
Sadly, after flying thousands on sectors on L1011's and DC10's, even the old Cale passengers, who weren't all shellsuiters, complained like mad at 48 hr delays, no IFE, ceiling panels falling down, tatty tired cabins.
Passengers and therefore tour operators like new airplanes, so although it might make economic sense to try and keep those L1011 in the sky, realistically the move to go to A330's might be the better option.
Perhaps I might still be in tartan if Cale had made that move a few years ago rather than losing all pax confidence with tired, tech aircraft. :(

Donkey Duke - whilst it is true that new leases are available at remarkably cheap rates, I somehow don't think that JMC (or very few other airlines) are currently adding aircraft, do you? :rolleyes:

As for trying to return existing aircraft to take advantage of better deals - are you smoking something? :eek: What lessor is going to want to take back aircraft in the present climate - when they would have to lease them out again for less than they are getting at the moment? Why do you think BA (and VS) parked their 747 classics rather than their -400s?

Good grief! :rolleyes:

yellowdog - the problem with Cale was that its Technical Director, a certain Mr Bradbury, didn't like the L1011s - so refused to spend anything on them. Consequently, they suffered.

Compare them with aircraft from Transat and ATA which have had money spent on new interiors - those aircraft look as good as new - and cost under 10% of the price of an A330 or 767.

If you're going to operate older aircraft (or cars, or anything mechanical!), then you just have to spend a bit on coddling them - and on making (and keeping them) looking good. A stitch in time, and all that.

Unfortunately, some people tend to equate cheap to buy with cheap to maintain - and that isn't the case. The business plan for my transatlantic operation which was going to operate L15s from Delta was based around buying runout aircraft for next to nothing and spending a fraction of the money we'd have spent on 767s or similar modern aircraft on D checks and brand new interiors that would have had the aircraft looking like 777s.

Guv, you are indeed privileged to have foreseen Sept 11. My beloved industry is in crisis and all you ever do is take cheap shots at it's sad demise. When your 44 L1011s arrive (happiness is a warm L1011) all PPruners will no doubt be beating your door down for a job. You are talking cr@p as usual. PLEASE EITHER PUT UP OR SHUT UP. :mad:

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: 763 jock ]

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: 763 jock ]

Since when did JMC have L1011's??

I thought they had DC10'S !!!

GUV,

Those L15's you were talking about from Delta were pieces of sh!t. How do I know?
I've been on them MANY MANY times. Very unreliable. They were always breaking down.
The pilots liked them, but everyone else hated them. And you wanted to buy them? Hey, I've got a bridge for sale if you are interested........sheesh!

Back to JMC and the A330's. I am sure JMC
could pressure the leasing companies for some cheaper leases--and if they say no---just go bankrupt and no one gets any money
and the planes are parked. That will teach them! And, of course, it was the pilots'
fault. Yeah GUV, I knew that's what you thought.

Thanks. Donkey Duke
:cool: :cool: :cool:

Contact Departure!

Guvnor - you are talking b****x about B.Bradbury. The reason for the lack of investment in the Caly L1011's was down to the owners of Caly pre Carlson.

Guv is wrong when stating the aircraft that has the lowest lease rate is the cheapest.

In fact in times of crisis like we have now the aircraft that get the jobs are the aircraft with the lowest direct operating costs, and that is not the DC-10's or the L1011's.

And as from a ceratin threshold, say 250-300 hours per month, the newer aircraft with the higher lease rate will always come out cheaper per seat/hour, an advantage which comes on top of the all important higher reliability and of the more attractive interiors of the newer aircraft.

Of course, GUV must be far off in his aircraft comparisons and conclusions for as long as he keeps estimating A330 lease rates at around US 1Mio per month.

Beware of the quality of his basic data and hence of the quality of his judgment.

what are snack boxes anyway! :eek: :eek: :rolleyes: :cool: :p :confused:

Snack boxes are smaller than picnic baskets...(Yum yum)...and lunch boxes!

Def no frills!

An A330-200 would lease in the $800,000 per month range in the current market. Maybe a little less.

Montt - I agree with you about overall costs per seat favouring new (expensive) aircraft once a certain threshold of utilisation has been reached (usually around 300 hours).

However, with the cheap aircraft, you can afford to buy or lease several for the cost of one new aircraft. This means you can operate a number of flights at the same time to different destinations carrying multiples of passengers - something you can't do with a single aircraft.

In addition, the older aircraft have much lower guaranteed monthly utilisation requirements - our business plan for the L1011s called for 150 - 200!

Donkey Duke - try reading my last post again, s l o w l y this time. I'm sure you'll get it.

Eventually. :rolleyes:

Hey Guv did you get the JMC L10's in the end??? A bit of TLC required on those babies (unless they had a "quality" Cambridge intercheck recently)!!!

Denzil - nope, we came second in the bidding process. Pity really, coz we had lots of work lined up for them!

And yes you're right - Inter Check 2s due on all four (with Inter Check 4s due on all within 18 months or less). We did, however, Have A Plan!! ;)

Good to see old "Trixie" flying again, was a really good aircraft to work on - when they were working that is!! The L1011's have to be the roomiest plane I have worked on to date, this includes the 777

(The Cally Tristars had no centre hat racks, so it felt really big!)
I've just heard that JMC will be operating the A330's to Canada next year.

Quote:
" A seat only specialist has moved to fill the gap left by the collapse of Canada 3000 by contracting 100,000 seats for next summer.

The Airline Seat Company which operates the Canada Flights & Holidays brand, will run 14 flights a week to Canada from LGW, MAN, BHX and GLA.

The operator has contracted Airtours International to serve Toronto, Ottawa, Halifax and Montreal with an Airbus A330.

Jmc Airlines will serve Calgary and Vancouver. The deal is a windfall for JMC, which is due to take delivery of a second A330 in March amid uncertainty over the longhaul market."
:eek: :D :eek: :D :eek: :D

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: Psr777 ]

Guv was the winner going to operate them or part them out??

Guv

just a simple question.

If you are so right that we should all be flying unreliable $hit heaps like yours, - because of the economics, how come the rest of the world,(who operate aircraft successfully, as opposed to dream about it like youself0 arent doing so?

My simple question requires a simple answer Guv. Not another one of your rambling non sensecial monologues about how the rest of the world doesnt know nout.

P.S. I look forward to watching you try to recruit pilots if your pipe dreams, by some fantastic miracle, come to fruition. But I suppose there is always going to be some inept cretin that would be prepared to work for such a Walter Mitty.

The PPRuNe curse of completely separating from the topic at hand has come in to play as usual.

With the Guvnor's inane obsession with out of date aircraft, and other members agreeing or disagreeing, a somewhat interesting topic about the fate of JMC's A330's seems to have turned into a mindless argument about L1011s.

I don't know about the rest of these post-ers, but filling two whole pages with pointless drivel is not my idea of rumours and news.

If L1011s had anything to do with JMC's longhaul plans or the delivery of the second A330 then I could understand. But the aircraft are sold, the fleet is being updated. If you would like to discuss the economics of L1011 operation, why not start a new topic in Aircrew Notices? I'm sure there would be replies. :rolleyes:

Thank you for those few people that are talking about JMC's A330s.
But back to the topic. . .. Here's a little kick-start

When is GOJMB due for delivery? What are the plans for the current one? Are they still planning to base one each at LGW and MAN or is business too slow to operate with that strategy? What are the plans for JMC's longhaul future?

OK. I have given you all a few questions to answer to get back on subject.

I've done my good deed for the day!

None other than,
SFly ;)

Denzil - I don't know; I'm trying to find out at present. Should know early next week.

gotajob4us - a number of airlines are. And a lot more are currently wishing they were.

Sfly - if you read the first page it would appear that G-OJMB will not be arriving and the existing one seems to be about to be returned.

And given too that the crews are rather upset with the unilateral 7.5% paycut - the future of the company itself appears to be in some question.

Now, if they's just stuck with those wonderful L1011s ... :D :D

Sorry SFly how rude of me, I will start a new topic about the departure of the L1011 from the JMC fleetlist :rolleyes:

[ 15 December 2001: Message edited by: Denzil ]

You can talk about your shiney toys, You can talk about DOC's and you can talk about the fuel price.
But I am afraid the truth is that providing you offer an acceptable cabin service on a nice looking a/c that can operate on time you will get the work.
It comes down to seat cost to whoever charters the aircraft.
Lease the a/c in during peak times, charge top dollar and give the a/c back in low season.
Then you dont have to lose half your profit from the summer during the winter.
As the thread says at the beginning, you are going to see some nice B742's in the UK market this summer..... and they are being snapped up very fast at a good seat rate. Just watch ?
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Just to keep the spotters happy - G-OJMB is the first 330, ok.

wysiwyg

Thinks A comes before B. MA & MB. What happened to MA?
:eek: :D

Thought both 330's were off to GA Hajj in January? :confused:

G-OJMB is off to GA - after which it will be returned to the lessor.

GUVNOR - Talking Arse Again.

G-OJMB doing haj in jan.

G-OJMC fending of demands from airbus to deliver it early.

Canada flights with above aircraft start this week, thursday be precise.
All flights now pretty full longhaul.

No I dont know what happened to MA.

GUV where do you get your info from? on a sunday morning?

I know where I get mine from, the horses mouth so to speak.

And where are these JMC tristars, I beleive they were Calys pieces of crap and gone before JMC started.

You say JMC stands for just might collapse, you could cal your airline JMF. Just Might FLY!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

JMC bought the TriStars along with the airline :p

JMC never got involved with the TriStars . . . they were never repainted, re-registered or maintained in temporary storage, and have no real future.

To settle the register controversy (courtesy ofThe Official UK Aircraft Register), GOJMA was once a Cessna apparantly so that reg is taken. JMC had to start at OJMB and move on from there.

Should you wish to comment about TriStars, why not parooze over to the new topic about this very subject! What a novel idea!

By the way, are the 332s still basing one at Manchester and one at Gatwick as planned?

SFly

[ 16 December 2001: Message edited by: SFly ]

Our glorious non directing director has been told by "his mates" in toulouse that we can go and jump as far as cancellations of the 2nd 330 is concerned. Aparently a contract is a contract ,lest we all forget.null