TAT, how does being subjected to the stupidity at “security”, prevent a terrorist who IS a pilot and working as a sleeper from flying the airplane into the building of their choice?

Someone has already pointed out, we could all go through security butt naked and still crash the airplane into the Whitehouse or any other target.

I agree Max cont, and same is for F/A. We don't need to force our way to the F/D and would have many ways I won't enumerate here to get rid of the pilots.. .But, if I could agree being searched, why treat us like criminals, and what's more, why not making the search effective for REAL dangerous goods and not for harmless tools just to fool the public?

PS Max, I'd like to see that one...you know...

[ 18 February 2002: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]</p>

Here is the training plan for the U.S. federally employed pax screeners:

<a href="http://www.dot.gov/affairs/Training%20Plan.htm#_Toc535913951" target="_blank">http://www.dot.gov/affairs/Training%20Plan.htm#_Toc535913951</a>

Looks like they've forgotten about the crews again! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> Seems that the people that take the brunt of anyone getting on board with cruel intentions, the cabin crew and the pilots, are to be classed as just regular members of the public. Who is responsible for the planning of all this?

[quote]There are also a range of passengers who have special needs. Screeners will receive specific instruction on recognizing these needs, which can include, but are not limited to, the following:. . Passengers with disabilities;. . Diplomats, senior officials, Secret Service protectees;. . Armed law enforcement officers;. . Prisoners;. . Those with specific language needs (some training can be geographically targeted);. . National origin/cultural/religious requirements.<hr></blockquote>

It's the bleeding hearts Danny. By the way, what are your special needs?...

Having now been "randomly selected for additional screening" 18 times in a row, the last, 10 minutes after I parked my 64000 kilo jet at the gate, I will agree that the current USA system is a joke. After 4 seasons in the UK, I much prefer that system, while not perfect, at least accomplishes the job without making pilots feel like criminals. ( everyone in front of me and behind me in the random line today were crewmembers).

Kinda funny the only people so found to have criminal backgrounds are the screeners, the same ones given the authority to treat crews like criminals....mmmmmm... <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Hav'nt you realized these screeners are all wannabees and so they just get a kick out of hasseling crew. Human nature I'm afraid.

Biggest joke so far didn't happen in the US, but in Germany... After parking our 74000kg jet (hah!) late at night, capt and I were checked on our ATPL, to check if it was real pilots going to their crewhotel. To make it even more stupid, we were the only airplane on the tarmac, and the securitypeoples could see us parking and getting out of the aircraft... <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

max_cont, you wrote:. .TAT, how does being subjected to the stupidity at “security”, prevent a terrorist who IS a pilot and working as a sleeper from flying the airplane into the building of their choice?

That was exactly my point of my post. Nothing can really effectively guard against infiltration, or just plain suicidal tendencies (Egyptair). Apart from the somewhat ridiculous provision of special departures for certain airlines, the only defence is the airline itself, and you can bet that ALL companies are looking very closely at everyone flying for them, Pilots and Cabin, right now.

Can you imagine what an "insider" suicide would do for an Airline's bottom line?

As a lowly Helicopter Driver doing meanial tasks part 135, its so good to hear the Crews of Heavy Iron talking about the Security (or lack thereof).. .I call it "Bandaid Bullshi*".. Im just hoping someday you guys will get it together and just sit down at the gates everywhere in the states at the same time and say enough...A little common sense here or we are not flying...ALPA, Hello, anybody home??. .My two cents.

As a moderately-frequent-flyer I just can't hold back on this one...

I've just flicked through the whole thread from start to finish (!) and I think you pros out there deserve to know that I, and most other pax I speak to, are well and truly on your side.

You see, every time I join you as a pax, I am placing my trust in a whole bunch of people. You - the pros in the front office, cabin crew, controllers, fuellers, maintenance engineers, ... you get the picture. And when my family flies as well, often without me, I'm placing even more trust in that exact same list of people. And I know that ultimately you are placing your trust in the same list of people.

We see the "front of house" security every time we fly, and we frequently see the crews running through the same checks. Now, while I for one do appreciate the value of these checks in keeping the occasional spur of the moment lunatic out of the seat next to me, I am under no illusion about their ability to keep out an intelligent, forward-thinking person intent on causing trouble.

Being brutally honest, what worries me more seems to be the same thing that worries everyone else who's posted so far - is the same level of security being enforced for everyone on that list? As far as I can tell they all have the potential to cause some very unpleasant situations.

Please don't think I am implying any less respect for anyone on the "Trust List" - I think we all realise that every single one plays a part in getting me safely from A to B (preferably not via C!) on time and in comfort.

What I am implying is that the enforcement of security, presumably in a manner deemed appropriate by the ... responsible ... authorities, almost certainly leaves a lot to be desired.

I mean, confiscating nail clippers. Honestly. I've done myself more damage with my own fist than I ever have with a pair of nail clippers! (Seriously - once gave myself a real shiner whilst trying to swat a mozzy on my cheek)

So, next time you pros find yourself getting frustrated going through a particularly dumb check, take a look around at the pax around you. I am willing to bet that most of them are also getting very frustrated on your behalf (if they've noticed) - I know I would be.

As for the SouthWest incidents - those pilots have my sympathy (letter on its way to SW). They are both presumably responsible professionals who have been unfortunate enough to get caught in a media-hyped circus. Would I still want either of them flying me or my family after the incidents described? Absolutely! What has bappened that changes anything with regard to their skill in the seat?

Only one comment - from a UK guy hit hard by the recent rail strikes - my sympathy was with the railway staff during the first one. Now, a number of strikes later (lost count - probably 5 or 6) I'm afraid that has changed. So, do you have my sympathy enough to make a point by working to rule - and incurring the associated delays? Absolutely. Will it cause me inconvenience? Quite possibly, but if I know in advance and it's short-lasting then not much. Will I get really upset if it goes on too long, too often, or without just cause? Very definitely. Beware.

Well, that's about it from me. Let's all just home that common sense starts to prevail at some level in the near future. Hope...

Bye.

BTW - thanks a lot to all the pilots out there who've put up with me on many occasions in the past, and never once looked frustrated or irritated. I had a habit of coming up-front for some intelligent conversation and a good dose of humour, especially during the tedious long-hauls. No more of that unfortunately. But thanks for the memories!

Hi all,. .BIN perusin' with interest this thread, and have experienced first hand (shoes in hand, belt, jacket, cap, pens & ID removed) these idiotic security checks in JFK, MIA & IAD. I think most points have BIN covered in this thread, however a point was made earlier. In fact it was more of a question. Why hasn't the mainstream media picked up on this yet?

There was one perceptive soul who did, in fact, touch on the reason; that there are those in power who want the masses to be controlled and sheep-like. In paying attention to the various forms of news sources available on both TV and internet, you will notice that there are definate erosions in how things used to be, in the USA at any rate.. .-No more Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA).. .-Systems being set up to monitor the internet and telephone lines. (mass spying on the general public). .-Compulsory rubella vaccinations in Washington DC for children. (this vaccine has BIN shown to cause autism in children) failure to do so can result in fines or JAILTIME for the parents!!!

The list goes on.

Sounds paranoid right? But this is actually happening. All in the name of persuing terrorism, the USA's Bill Of Rights is slowly being dismantled. Individuals who step out of the flock will be stamped on...Vewwy woughly indeed.

We need to be unified! I think the June 1st shutdown is a good beginning.

Forget individual Assocs. Maybe a concerted show under the auspices of IFALPA may have even greater impact.

For those real conspiracy theorists, here are a couple of interesting websites:

-nomorefakenews.com. .-davidicke.com

Of course, ya gotta put the http etc before those titles. Some of the stuff seems over the top. But a lot of it sure makes you go Hmmmmmmmm <a href="http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/icons/icon6.gif" target="_blank">http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/icons/icon6.gif</a>

. .Trinidude

Oops,. .Sorry 'bout my choice of icon. Ahm experiencing finger trouble, but I 'tink I'm getting the hang of it now. . .Trinidude

Sorry some people are going a little far out for the conspiracy theories etc.

Mainstream media wants to get it's column inches filled as easily and painlessly as possible with material that will sell the mags/newspapers/etc. If recycled press releases from the pop star/movie/actor/politician/activist group/etc that is the standard then that is what you will get. In many cases the trade press is no better by providing recycled press releases that would peg the average human's "B.S meter".

If the aviation operations professionals (crew, tech, dispatch etc) think that the aviation professionals on the govt. side are in charge of aviation security they are mistaken. The requirements are being driven politically and by people without any particular knowledge of aviation with an eye to the great public. This is no different than the policy drivers that got NATS partially privatized, certain aircraft and airlines certified that strictly speaking shouldn't have been etc, so it should not be a big suprise, should it?

Sympathize with the professionals who have to put up with the mickey mouse from the security officers. Security people on the pointy end have not historically been given much in the line of training (possibly because of the 300-400% turnover rate?) and there is very little for them to hang their hats on in exercising judgement, with lots of second guessing etc and draconian penalties for violating the procedures.

Hopefully the security operations will become more professional and will be allowed to be run by professionals without "help" from the politicians and other opportunists. Wouldn't it be great for the pilots to pick a day to stop work to call attention to the fact that they are being security screeed to get to the office every day? Just like the passengers. Some of whom have more security clearance that any policeman will ever get? No, all in all do not think it would be good for the pilot profession to do something like train drivers or truck drivers. What would help is the unions and companies talking to the people in power that are telling the aviation community what to do. Do this at all levels (airport managers, local and national and international) and things could be changed over the medium-long term to make the security less onerous. Then the resources could be put into checking the cleaners, garbage collecters and other with access to aircraft and ramp areas. Then maybe millions in currency wouldn't be walked off with from the wonderful higher security euroports (sorry, couldn't resist that)

"Many" years ago pilots were allowed to bypass security check points by showing their ID's, just ask a few Southwest pilots who were caught with handguns that they had been carrying for years in their fligh bags, and forgot to remove them when it was required to go through the metal detectors and X-ray machines. I flew with one pilot who superimposed a picture of his rearend on his ID and used it successfully for several months out of SFO. Over the years I have come to the conclusion that pilots have the only good job in the entire aviation industry. This has created a lot of jealousy and resentment from the other workers (just remember the times you have been screwed over by a gate agent when traveling non-rev, only because he/she could). The current humiliations are "eye candy" for the general public and pilots become suseptable to intimidating and annoying actions, now by the security people also. Everyone needs to keep their cool and keep their mouths shut. The consequences can be devastating if one decides to express his/her opinion while being subjected to the current himiliations at security stations. The security measure being taken will never be efficient until "profiling" is used to pin point probable security risks. In the US this is considered discrimiation and is still being blocked, at least officially. The "shoe bomber" was questioned and released the day before he boarded the JFK flight and attempted to blow it up. From his appearance, mannerisms and the other passengers complaints, he should have never been allowed to board any airplane (oneway ticket, paid in cash and no luggage). Profiling would have certainly helped prevent the incident.. .When you are standing in public, in uniform, and being subjected to the latest security humiliations just keep the thought of being the guy who wears the "coolest hat" and gets to "strap on the jet" when you complete the security check. This might help you to be cool, stay out of trouble and keep your job. This isn't the time to be "bucking the system", its time to let time and sanity run its course and things will improve. They have to as its not working now.

Be cool.....you....be cool.

It's not "security". .It's "suckurity"

Gosh niteflyer, you forgot the real biggie....flouride in drinking water...now there's a conspiracy that has been going on for years... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

God I feel lucky!

I fly a Bizjet all over Asia, in and out of Muslim and Communist Countries all the time and the only difference since 911 is that I get asked "Are you American?" all the time now. No I am not!

The only piece of insanity I've seen recently is the 'responsible' Govt body(Military) for the airfield I operate from wanted to build a fence around our airfield INSIDE the hangers etc, with NO GATES!! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> None of us mind a fence but surely the hangers and buildings can form part of the fence? Well they agreed to a compromise......they're going to put gates in the fence in front of hangers etc which we can call up to be opened....FOR FCKS SAKE!!!!

I believe sanity will prevail in the end?

This does not stop me being enfuriated by what is going on in the US!

IT IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH to simply say "keep calm and let it run it's course".

If you do then the same mindless morons who come up with this **** will come up with more of the same in the future.

Isn't it about time the intelligent peoples of the (free) world started demanding some accountability from the elected officials?

When this sort of thing is happening to the one group of professionals who pose NO THREAT (if properly vetted by the airline) you HAVE to say "NO THIS IS REDICULOUS, WE WILL NOT STAND FOR IT!!!"

The prison system in any western country is unable to keep drugs and weapons out with strip searchers and body cavity checks!

You or I(aircrew) can go through a similar search and it will have NOT THE SLIGHTEST IMPACT ON SAFETY/SECURITY!!!!!!!!

Some wars just have to be fought and this is one! Your/our professional dignity, human rights and basic common sense demand it!!!

The people responsible for this sort of LUNACY CANNOT be allowed to retain positions of power in a free society. If they do then we might as well give up and let the west be taken over by the very people we are supposed to be trying to stop.

RANT OVER!!!(for now)

Chuck <img src="mad.gif" border="0">

I don't mind the search too much- the last time I went airside without one was in 1988, they closed all the crew channels that month... now if they stopped me jumping the queue at security, that would be another story!