BA Pilot arrested in ARN ???
 

Just heard on the news that a BA pilot was arrested today in Stockholm, while attempting to fly actively to LON, apparently under the influence of alcohol. Anyone know anything ??

If this is true, I gather BA management would not be to happy........

According to swedish newspaper "Dagens Nyheter" (equivalent to The Times) , the pilot in question was supposed to fly at 0830 local time but was picked up by the airport police. Breath-test showed 0.2 promille. A blood test was also taken, and its result was reported to take a couple of days.

BA spokesman was quoted to say (freely translated) "we take this very seriously" and also that they were going to "gather as much info as possible".

Passangers had to wait for about three hours, until BA had a replacement pilot.
for those of you who read swedish:
http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.j...usRenderType=6

Ananova:

BA pilot 'fails breath test at airport'

A British Airways pilot is facing the sack after allegedly being caught over the alcohol limit as he prepared to fly a passenger plane to London.

It is understood that the pilot was held by Swedish police after failing a breath test he was asked to take before the flight was due to leave from Arlanda airport near Stockholm.

A British Airways spokeswoman said the pilot, who has not been named, has been removed from flying duties while a full BA investigation was carried out, in addition to the inquiry by Swedish police.

"We are extremely concerned to hear of this alleged incident," the spokeswoman said.

She said BA had "very strict rules governing the use of alcohol" which amounted to a "zero tolerance" policy.

"It's a disciplinary offence for an employee to report for work impaired by alcohol and it is deemed to be gross misconduct, which can result in dismissal.

"A full investigation has been launched."

The spokeswoman said the pilot had been flown back to the UK, where he was "helping" with the investigation.


Story filed: 21:40 Saturday 25th January 2003

Pretty sure a 12 hour rule in Sweden and zero tolerance on any any in the blood stream. (As is Finland).

I have no sympathy for this, the rules are in bold black and white on BA's station briefing sheets, each crew member is given one on arrival - their is plently of time to read it on the long bus ride to the hotel.
......... is it really worth your job ?

I may be sticking my neck out a little here but could this level of alcohol be a result from drinking the night before or must it have been from the same day of the flight?

I am not too knowledgable about the blood alcohol levels so if someone could educate me a little?

Cheers
Dave

Not judging whether hes guilty or not, just a general comment here..

YOU ARE A F**KING IDIOT IF YOU MIX DRINKING AND FLYING.
ITS NOT WORTH YOUR LICENSE, AND IF YOU DO IT THEN YOU DESERVE EVERYTHING THROWN AT YOU. :mad:

I would say it's from the night before.. Seems a bit stiff to have a drink at 6:30 in the morning but who knows...

Yet another tragedy..

Just to give a perspective, if the reading was indeed 0.02, that compares with a UK driving limit of 0.08, and the common European limit of 0.05. I do not know the Swedish rules, but they are renowned for being very strict about alcohol.

So if this is true, a reading of 0.02 could very easily be from some time before.

But in the second post on this thread it quotes a level of .2, i.e. four times the UK limit:(

From the BBC :

A British Airways pilot has been grounded after allegedly failing a breath test as he was preparing to fly a planeload of passengers to London.
It is understood that the pilot, who has not been named, was held by Swedish police after being found over the alcohol limit just before the flight was due to leave from Arlanda airport near Stockholm.

The 79 passengers were told there were "technical difficulties" with the plane and were made to wait three hours for a new flight crew to be brought in.

The co-pilot was not able to fly the plane because he was helping police with their inquiries, although he has not been implicated.

It's a disciplinary offence for an employee to report for work impaired by alcohol



BA spokeswoman

BA insisted that the pilot, reportedly in his 50s and from the London area, had not been close to flying the plane.

"Any suggestion that the pilot was removed from the cockpit is simply untrue," the spokeswoman said.

She added that he has been removed from flying duties while a full investigation was carried out by the airline, in addition to the inquiry by Swedish police.

"We are extremely concerned to hear of this alleged incident," the spokeswoman said.

Investigation

She said BA had "very strict rules governing the use of alcohol" which amounted to a "zero tolerance" policy.

"It's a disciplinary offence for an employee to report for work impaired by alcohol and it is deemed to be gross misconduct, which can result in dismissal."

The spokeswoman said the pilot had been flown back to the UK, where he was "helping" with the investigation.

A spokesman for the Civil Aviation Authority said the current law was that "you shall not present yourself for duty under the influence of alcohol or drugs".

The CAA said they had the power to demand that any pilot with a UK pilot's licence undergo a medical assessment if suspected of being under the influence and may face the removal of their licence.

BarryM : you could be right. Unfortunately the report appears to relate to a breath test, and the level to a blood concentration, so we shall have to await fuller reports. Reports ususlly refer to a percentage of alcohol in blood, but the report above says promille, which is ten times greater than percent, if I read it correctly.

So we shall see.

Just to clarify BM,

The breathtest showed 0.1 Mg/L, (or 0.2 "Promille" in the blood). I don´t know the unit you use in the UK, but in Sweden the (rather strict) limit for driving is just that, 0.2 promille alcohol. I do know the limit measured in Promille is 0.8 in UK(= 0.4 Mg/L). So it was not a very high level of acohol, but still, one wonders how some people think, or if they think at all.

U_R and Fenderbender - Yup, thanks for that, I see what you mean. Let's hope that the result of the blood test is in the pilots favour.

From www.people.co.uk :


BA PILOT 'DRUNK IN COCKPIT'

A BRITISH Airways pilot was arrested yesterday on suspicion of being drunk at the controls of his plane.

He was breathalysed by Swedish police as he prepared to fly 79 passengers from Stockholm to London.

The pilot, in his 50s and from London, was held in the cockpit of the Airbus 320 after airport staff noticed a smell of booze.

A police spokeswoman said: "They asked him to blow into the breathalyser. At first he refused, then said Yes. It was positive."

The £100,000-a-year pilot is said to have admitted drinking the night before BA's 8.35am Flight 771.

A BA spokesman said: "We have very strict rules governing the use of alcohol and a zero tolerance policy. If the allegation is proved, it will result in dismissal."

__________________________


And, in a somewhat related story about pilot impairment from The Guardian:

New hours could kill, say pilots

Andrew Clark, transport correspondent
Tuesday January 21, 2003
The Guardian

A European plan to harmonise the hours worked by airline pilots could put passengers' lives at risk, as exhausted crew struggle to stay awake in the cockpit, union leaders told the government yesterday.

The British Airline Pilots' Association (Balpa) said that the proposal, backed by the European parliament, could add up to two hours to a pilot's working day. Balpa's chairman, Mervyn Gramshaw, said this would leave his members unable to behave in an "intellectually sensible" way. Their concentration levels would be equivalent to a blood-alcohol level above drink-drive limits.

Mr Gramshaw, a Britannia Airways pilot, said: "Lives are at risk and will be put at risk."...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/airlines/s...878971,00.html

This limit is common around Europe. There is anecdotal evidence that some individuals have a figure close to this as a background reading i.e no alcohol required. Also it is believed that certain diets can cause this limit to be reached. My company is thinking of providing access to test equipment in order to establish your residual levels. More research seems to be needed to check this as you only get one chance. Does anyone know more.

..... and just to think that Air France pilots used to ( and maybe still do ) get a little bottle of wine with their in-flight dinner. ;)

Now for all we know the pilot in question might just have used a mouthwash, e.g. I've just got the one from my bathroom cabinet ( i.e. Tesco's Extra Strength CoolMint ) and a glance at the ingredients reveals: Aqua, Alcohol (21% w/w), Glycerin, Polysorbate 20, Sodium Benzoate, Aroma, Cetylpyridium Chloride, Sodium Saccharin, Sodium Fluoride (0.05% w/w), Benzoic Acid, CI42090, CI47005.

veritably an almost eye watering array of stuff, including alcohol ! :eek:

So one could well imagine that if I rinsed my mouth with it, and maybe even managed to mistakenly swallow some of it, then I too could likely register on a breath-test that's seemingly set so low.

Thus, and before we forget that great tradition of 'being innocent until PROVEN to be guilty', let's wait and see what comes of the blood test shall we ?

Unfortunately, the Taleban will have his death planned already. The big red book was changed post Channel 4 so that now ‘no residual alcohol’ is left in the bloodstream. The physiologists and biochemists have explained that this is in reality an unattainable level – even for the most evangelic apostles of the Prince of Darkness. But reality is not a state of mind enjoyed by soldiers of the Jihad. The rule was placed there to facilitate swift and decisive punishment, and they’re not interested in tiresome extenuating circumstances.

I hope that the blood tests show the individual to be innocent, I truly believe that the very great majority of Nigels are responsible, mature, and professional pilots. I take no pleasure whatsoever in seeing the name of this once great company being dragged through the mire by tawdry rags that I wouldn’t wipe my bum with.

http://www.80scartoons.8k.com/roobarb10wee.gif
I’ll take on the opposition anyday. It’s my management I can’t beat!

The new alcohol limit was set as the lowest level currently detectable with current technology as such it is a virtually negligible level of alcohol.Given the presence of naturally produced chemicals in the body which can test as alcohol in addition to certain foodstuffs and mouthwashes the potential for a miscarriage of justice is enormous.I suspect even a teetotaller could fall foul of this very low limit.I have for several years had a strict personal rule of no (not even moderate) alcohol consumption within 24 hours of duty, even so I have little faith that I might not be one day falsely accused.I purchased a cheap alcometer in the U.S. a few years ago as it is a subject I am very interested in ,the readings have the potential to be damning at very low levels even when no alcohol has been consumed.Be very careful colleagues there are forces out there at work whose very last concern is flight safety!!.Make sure your a paid up member of Balpa who I can assure you have a very realistic view of the potential problems of this very low limit.:(

I wonder what the Jorno's blood alcohol level is when they write some of this tosh. The printed "Mail on Sunday" was completely over the top, since toned down on its website. It is only a couple of months since a similar scare that was a very costly non event.

We are now in an invidious position where I can sit down for dinner with my wife and consume half a bottle of wine and finish it by 2100. Would anyone like to tell me what my blood alcohol level is when I report for work at 0600 because I haven’t a clue and I certainly would not be "drunk" in "journalese" and would have complied with the UK law.

Yet all the time the real story about the real danger to our passengers; fatigue due excessive roster disruption and long night duties doesn’t raise a murmur. If only someone could produce a fatigue test - "snore into this bag please".

Well said Sky 9 our occupation is being persecuted to the point where a normal moderate lifestyle is denied us ,false accusations can be readily made towards us yet the authorities seem willing to condone excessive duty periods which leave us fatigued to the equivalent of alcohol consumption well over the drink driving limits.Wake up world.!!!(And thank God for Balpa!!)

JAR-OPS 1
 

Readers of this thread might like to be reminded that what JAR-OPS 1 Subpart B prescribes is as follows:

JAR-OPS 1.085 (e) A crew member shall not:

(1) Consume alcohol less than 8 hours prior to the specified reporting time for flight duty or the commencement of standby;

(2) Commence a flight duty period with a blood alcohol level in excess of 0.2 promille;

(3) Consume alcohol during the flight period or whilst on standby.

Of course, any pilot must comply with whatever is in his employer's operations manual, which may also specify that the pilot must comply with local regulations (if lower limitations are prescribed). However, it is is extremely unlikely that a UK air operator that holds an AOC based upon JAR-OPS 1 would specify anything less than 0.2 promille.

HI All!

Lets get real. A 0.02 % alcohol blood level has nothing to do with beeing Drunk! The 0.00% is a level the politicians in scandinavia have made up so as to make the masses think that they are doing something about drunk driving accidents. It´s all BS. The guys that drove their car drunk (0.1% or greater) will still do it wheather the limit is 0.04 or 0.00%. The drunk guys are the ones causing the accidents not the 0.02% guys. There has acually been done research showing that the bloodalcohol level needs to be more than 0.08% to impare the individuals ability to operate complex machinery. The pilot has made a mistake not adhering to the strick although ludicris, swedish rules. But as far as beeing unsafe, come on get a grip! Hope he is not fired. He is probably a good guy. Never trust anyone who doesn´t take a drink!

Nugget 0.2 promille is an extremely low level very near to negligible are you really confident that you might not one day be falsely accused??.We are on the edge of detectable levels here nothing like drunkeness or impairment.The potential for miscarriage of justice is enormous.Even a teetotaller is at risk of false accusation.

Sky,

Hard as it seems, the half bottle nine hours before T/O is only legal with the 8 hours rule. In other countries a 12 hour rule exists. Some companies insist on a more restrictive rule. "Bottle to throttle" becomes "bottle to check-in" etc. Then it gets subjective - "how much alcohol?"

All that comes to naught, however when a blood alcohol level test is made - which happens more and more these days. There are police data showing how much level to expect so many hours after drinking but the test is the nitty gritty.

Alcohol is excreted via the lungs at a rate dependent upon individual factors. If you can smell the alcohol on the breath of someone, this process is for sure still in progress. If you can't, it still might be.

The only safe advice is to drink no alcohol the night before a flight. This is an enormous change in life style for lots of us. So was learning not to drive home from an evening out on the town but times are changing.

So that’s all right then.

I don’t mind complying with any rule they dream up regarding bottle to throttle. I do however, insist on as near normal a social life as one can reasonably expect in this business. If they demand I don’t drink anything for 12 hours or whatever figure they dream up, no problem…but I expect my normal days off followed by the requisite time to comply with the rules before the next duty.

The way things are heading, we’ll need at least blocks of 4 days off to comply. I wonder if they’ll agree to that?:rolleyes:

I know of a fatal where the postmortem revealed the pilot's blood/alcohol level was still over 0.05 though witnesses confirmed he ceased drinking 10 hours before the accident.

Surely for me to comply with the law I have to be able to measure it. Can I buy a machine to measure my blood alcohol level in the morning ; or should I just go "sick" if I had a drink the night before just to make sure that I am legal because that is what will happen?

At the moment the JAR-OPS 0.O2 promille limit is largely unenforceable in the UK. The current requirement in the Air Navigation Order is simply that a member of crew shall not "be under the influence of drink or a drug to such an extent as to impair his capacity so to act". There is no limit set in legislation and there are no powers to require to require crew to provide samples of breath etc for testing.

This will be changed by the Railways and Transport Safety Bill introduced in the House of Commons earlier this month. Part 5 contains clauses which establish an alcohol limit of 0.02 promille for flight and cabin crew and ATCOs and provid the police with the power to require samples (breath, blood or urine) from anyone suspected committing an offence.

http://www.parliament.the-stationer...040/2003040.pdf

My understanding is that the 0.02 promille limit is higher than than the level of alcohol that can be natuarally produced by the body in most circumstances.

I am not advocating getting drunk before you go and fly but any rule that means you cannot enjoy a glass of wine or a pint with your dinner at 19:00 in the evening and not be legal to fly at 6:30-07:00 the next morning is bloody pathetic and has no pathological basis at all.

If you are operating in a country where that is the law then you clearly have no choice but to comply. I can just imagine the sort of self-righteous, Boss suit and thin slitty black rimmed glasses wearing jobsworths who came up with these sorts of rules. Ughh, it makes me wretch, I'm off for a lunchtime pint. (No flying till Wednesday so I think that should be OK!)

For what it's worth, I still think the 8hr "bottle to throttle" rule should be extended to at least 12hrs. I do understand that it's sociable and relaxing to have a beer after a flight, we've all done it, but I think lessons need to be learned from the recent events at BA and in the US. More importantly, how would you feel if you had been breathalised and found to be over the limit? People's lives are at stake. Anyway, that's my opinion - cheers http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/guin.gif

Real dangers to airsafety.
 

We all agree that nobody should fly a plane under the influence of alcohol.This applies to any other profession which involves the safety of the general public.

However in the case of airline pilots there are many more factors that can reduce performance other than alcohol and to label a pilot unfit to fly just because he had a drink the night before, is more of a danger than any misleading alcohol test.

Hidden factors such as tiredeness, depression, stress, mood swings,etc can compromise safety just as much if not more than alcohol, but these are not measurable using technology and are nevertheless very real factors.

If a pilot doesn't drink any alcohol but stays up all night, surely he is more dangerous to the airline and the public, but because this is not measurable noone is penalised for it.

Safety rules are a fundamental part of our societies, and your industry in particular, but common sense should also prevail.

If this specific BA pilot had only a drink (still to be proven) the night before the flight, it would be a crime to label him a drunk, as the media has done, as this could potentially ruin his career without any "real" foundation for disciplinary action.
It is only the extremities of the Swedish law that have bought this situation to the public attention and laws are made by falable human beings.

I am not a pilot, but I feel this is a case of following the letter of the law too severely, in this particular case a law that is almost impossible to implement because of its extreme severity.
Asking people to drive at 5mph normally doesn't result in them doing so because it is almost technically impossible to do so without stalling. In the same way this rule goes beyond the limits of common sense and doesn't contribute to better safety at all.

Sunday Express has a banner splash reading "Arrested In The Cockpit - Drunken BA pilot dragged from controls by police". So it's good to see that Britain's no. 1 pornographer-owned newspaper is keeping things in perspective! PS, pro mille means parts per thousand, no? So certainly not double the same number of percentage points! In fact it's that divided by 10.

The Capt involved posned LHR-ARN the day before and was met by ground staff who reported that he was drunk then and crews at the crew hotel saw him continuing drinking thru the evening. There was no way he would be sober for the early morning departure and thought that the crew should report sick and delay the departure. The authorities at ARN were pre warned and fully aware of his condition.
A very sad situation and he SHOULD know better.

You might like this.

It is from the UK ACPO Manual of Guidance on the Police Use of Firearms

11. TEMPORARY UNFITNESS TO BE ISSUED WITH A FIREARM

11.1 The consumption of alcohol or the use of drugs in medical treatment or otherwisemay reduce the alertness and performance of an officer. Officers carrying firearms
should not consume, or be unfit whilst under the influence of, alcohol. Any officer who is receiving a course of drug treatment should seek the advice of their own doctor or Occupational Health Unit concerning the possible side effects. Any other concerns, or medical advice given to an officer should be brought to the attention of their immediate supervisor, who should take appropriate action.

There used to be a 24 hour before rule. Now, however, an officer's fitness to carry, given regard to all circumstances, is considered by the individual and their supervisor.

Just because you had a drink eight hours ago and there is residual alcohol in your system, doesn't necessarily make you unfit to carry out a task.

This all goes back to what is a safe level.

Having been fully trained as a custody suite breathalyser operator, you would be surprised how much you do have to drink to get it to provide a big reading. One of the main things is how much food you have eaten. Half a lager on anempty stomach is a recipie for disaster

I don't quite get this.

I assume these 'gound staff' who met him were there to arrange his transport to the hotel.

If he was positioning, he was on duty, therefore should not have been drunk.

So who exactly did the ground staff report this to and when?

FlapsOne

I'm not quite sure where your're coming from?

<<If he was positioning, he was on duty>> Yes

<<therefore should not have been drunk>> Under the ANO - yes - nobody should be "drunk" on an aircraft.

However, "having a drink" while on duty (e.g. while positioning) is not against BA rules, or any others I know, provided out of uniform and obviously not operating afterwards i.e. a rest period first.

The worrying thing as you say is that this seems to have been noticed by a number of people over a period of time, and all that seems to have been done was lay the trap? If all the above is true, it does not condone the behaviour of the individual, but some direct intervention earlier might have saved the individual and BA a lot of hassle, whilst still getting the point across.

Sorry Flaps one, Why can't you have a drink whilst positioning. If You are not within a Flight Duty Period. The point is when are you going to actually operate an A/C thats when timing matters.:confused:

I'm a humble PPL and I like my pint (or three) but for me the 12 hour "bottle to throttle" rule is paramount - even here in Thailand where the rules might sometimes be a little less strict.

If the pilot's breath was bad enough to initiate a breath/blood check then (I'm sorry) I have no sympathy for the person involved and can only applaud the decision taken to remove them from the flight deck.

From the Indiana Prevention Resource Center website:

BLOOD ALCOHOL LEVELS
Conversion Factors for Alternative Measurements
The most common system for measuring and reporting Blood Alcohol Levels (BAL) is calculated using the weight of alcohol (milligrams) and the volume of blood (deciliter). This yields a Blood Alcohol Concentration that can be expressed as a percentage (ie. 0.10% alcohol by volume), or as a proportion (ie. 100 mg. per deciliter). This system is the one prescribed by almost every state, and is sometimes referred to as the "weight by volume" or "w/v" method.

A few states prescribe a "weight by weight" or "w/w" method (milligrams of alcohol in milligrams of blood). For forensic evidence purposes, the w/w can be calculated by dividing the w/v by a factor or 1.055 (the average specific gravity of blood).

Although most evidentiary rules specify that the proportion of alcohol in the whole blood be used to measure the level of intoxication, most hospitals routinely calculate the proportion of a drug in the plasma portion of the blood. While this measurement is the most useful one for medical purposes, it is not the appropriate one for most legal purposes. Since the addition of red and white blood cells would add to the blood volume that dilutes the alcohol, using only the plasma fraction would result in a percentage of alcohol that is higher than would be found in whole blood. Although there is some variation from person to person, depending upon the density of their bloods, the average adjustment factor is 1.16. In other words, to estimate the alcohol level in whole blood using the alcohol level in blood plasma, divide by 1.16. For example, a plasma alcohol level of 0.15% would convert to a blood alcohol level of 0.13%.


Comparison of Blood Alcohol Level Reporting Systems
Six different methods of reporting the same blood alcohol measurement.

Xeque!

A bit harsh there, don´t You think! Not so humble. The mans breathelizer test showed 0.02%!! This is NOT beeing drunk and is a leagel level in most countries! Lets get the blood test and give this guy the benefit of the doubt!:cool: