BA CC failed a breathalyser test
At what point did Nigel see this? During the briefing, on the camera or when visiting the loo?
‘The pilot saw for himself that the crew member was in no fit state to work and engage with passengers.' https://metro.co.uk/2023/01/29/gatwi...dess-18183656/ |
Originally Posted by 70 Mustang
(Post 11376439)
And tell her to stand down, stay in the crew rest area? He continued the flight so he must have not considered it a safety problem?
Maybe he simply did not like her? If there had been a history, that could have been dealt with sooner? I just don't see that i would ever have done that to a fellow crewmember. I may have told her and the other crew, she's unwell and deal with it in the crewroom after getting more information. Someone may have put something in one or two of her drinks? She was operating already and someone could have witnessed that interaction between the two. Let’s say a passenger noticed it, reported it to the airline and police, confirming they witnessed the offender talking to a pilot, the pilot loses his license and goes to jail too. I would have done the same, it is what it is. |
Originally Posted by Raph737
(Post 11376452)
I hear you, showing some compassion etc…that said, he was left with no real option as it becomes a safety hazard and he was legally obliged to.
She was operating already and someone could have witnessed that interaction between the two. Let’s say a passenger noticed it, reported it to the airline and police, confirming they witnessed the offender talking to a pilot, the pilot loses his license and goes to jail too. I would have done the same, it is what it is. Ralph, that is one possibility, but highly unlikely as that would probably have been in the article. The most likely time that the Captain would have been able to notice that she was unfit to do her job was during the briefing. I'm not saying that it was, but it the most likely point of required interaction. Keep your eyes peeled for a media follow up report. |
A very difficult situation but as previous commenters have said if this has only come to light on board then the Captain has been left with no option but to do what he did. To just have a quiet word in her ear to say she's ill when the entire rest of the crew and god forbid pax know what's actually going on would have destroyed his credibility entirely. We don't know for a fact he's radioed ahead for police. He's perhaps radioed ahead explaining the situation to OPS who have taken action.
The fact of the matter is this is probably a high-functioning alcoholic who will now hopefully get the help she needs. The stigma around mental health and addiction is well above average in the aviation industry and seeking help has probably not been an option for this person for fear of losing her income. Shame. Edited to add she may well have been drinking throughout the duty so noticing in the briefing may not have been possible. He may even have been alerted to this by another member of the cabin crew. |
Originally Posted by airspeed75
(Post 11376454)
A very difficult situation but as previous commenters have said if this has only come to light on board then the Captain has been left with no option but to do what he did. To just have a quiet word in her ear to say she's ill when the entire rest of the crew and god forbid pax know what's actually going on would have destroyed his credibility entirely. We don't know for a fact he's radioed ahead for police. He's perhaps radioed ahead explaining the situation to OPS who have taken action.
The fact of the matter is this is probably a high-functioning alcoholic who will now hopefully get the help she needs. The stigma around mental health and addiction is well above average in the aviation industry and seeking help has probably not been an option for this person for fear of losing her income. Shame. Edited to add she may well have been drinking throughout the duty so noticing in the briefing may not have been possible. He may even have been alerted to this by another member of the cabin crew. ‘The pilot saw for himself that the crew member was in no fit state to work and engage with passengers.' |
Originally Posted by Confusious
(Post 11376458)
None of us know, but this is the sentence that caught my attention:
‘The pilot saw for himself that the crew member was in no fit state to work and engage with passengers.' This doesn't say at what point this observation was made? Perhaps this was during the process by which she was likely arrested and removed from the aircraft? Perhaps it was brought to his attention during the flight and at this point he saw it. I highly doubt he saw this prior to taking the aircraft into the air - he clearly isn't shy of reporting her so why would he wait? I don't think it changes anything and it's likely just a sad case of an alcoholic making a poor decision at the hands of addiction. I'd imagine there will be a very troubled and sad family dealing with this tonight if she has one. |
Originally Posted by airspeed75
(Post 11376461)
"A source told the Sun ‘The pilot saw for himself that the crew member was in no fit state to work and engage with passengers."
This doesn't say at what point this observation was made? Perhaps this was during the process by which she was likely arrested and removed from the aircraft? Perhaps it was brought to his attention during the flight and at this point he saw it. I highly doubt he saw this prior to taking the aircraft into the air - he clearly isn't shy of reporting her so why would he wait? I don't think it changes anything and it's likely just a sad case of an alcoholic making a poor decision at the hands of addiction. I'd imagine there will be a very troubled and sad family dealing with this tonight if she has one. |
I had a crew member reported to me in-flight for surreptitiously drinking in the galley. There had been suspicions before that the innocent fruit juice on the galley top was more than it appeared. Her fellow crew members were all pretty pissed off that her behaviour had become so blatant.
That's the problem with being a Captain.... People come to you to tell you stuff you don't really want to hear. Sadly I could not look the other way and the outcome was pretty much as above. Several of the comments above demonstrate precious little awareness of the working environment. |
Originally Posted by Magplug
(Post 11376467)
I had a crew member reported to me in-flight for surreptitiously drinking in the galley. There had been suspicions before that the innocent fruit juice on the galley top was more than it appeared. Her fellow crew members were all pretty pissed off that her behaviour had become so blatant.
That's the problem with being a Captain.... People come to you to tell you stuff you don't really want to hear. Sadly I could not look the other way and the outcome was pretty much as above. Several of the comments above demonstrate precious little awareness of the working environment. |
Originally Posted by Magplug
(Post 11376467)
I had a crew member reported to me in-flight for surreptitiously drinking in the galley. There had been suspicions before that the innocent fruit juice on the galley top was more than it appeared. Her fellow crew members were all pretty pissed off that her behaviour had become so blatant.
That's the problem with being a Captain.... People come to you to tell you stuff you don't really want to hear. Sadly I could not look the other way and the outcome was pretty much as above. Several of the comments above demonstrate precious little awareness of the working environment. |
I'm not operating crew but something in this just doesn't hang together. As others have pointed out, the point at which the Captain became aware of the situation is important. But if that quote to the Sun ("The pilot saw for himself that the crew member was in no fit state to work and engage with passengers") is anything close to the truth, surely the Captain had other responsibilities and actions to take. It does rather sound like the issue became apparent on the return leg - any earlier and the Captain may have questions to answer. And in this day and age, the Captain had little option.
On a more personal level, I hope the crewmember gets help if she wants it, and that it's a wake-up call to anyone heading in the same direction. |
As someone mentioned before, Could have been fine in briefing and outbound sector but then something similar to this happens that would definitely get my attention'!
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/186526...rinks-trolley/ |
Often at BA you don’t stay with the Cabin Crew and don’t actually perform a formal cabin crew brief so it is feasible the first time the pilot encountered this crew member was during a toilet break or her visiting the flight deck. I had this once myself when a crew member came into the flight deck and smelled like a brewery. I simply said to her that I suggest she reports to the CM that she is too unfit to operate and sit herself in the back row for the remainder of the flight or the other option would be a breath test on arrival. She removed herself, I had a further discussion with her after landing saying that if she did it again it would be the police. I can’t see much point in ruining someone’s life without giving them a chance. I also have had a mate that suggested the same to his FO at report I.e you should go unfit for duty or I will require a breath test before we proceed.
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Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
(Post 11376546)
I can’t see much point in ruining someone’s life without giving them a chance.
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Originally Posted by Cloudee
(Post 11376555)
You wouldn’t have ruined her life, she would have done that. By taking no formal action you’ve passed the problem on to the next guy. Command comes with responsibility.
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Originally Posted by 70 Mustang
(Post 11376439)
And tell her to stand down, stay in the crew rest area? He continued the flight so he must have not considered it a safety problem?
Maybe he simply did not like her? If there had been a history, that could have been dealt with sooner? I just don't see that i would ever have done that to a fellow crewmember. I may have told her and the other crew, she's unwell and deal with it in the crewroom after getting more information. Someone may have put something in one or two of her drinks? |
So little information, so much speculation...
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Gone are the days when some used to have a quiet sip of champers between serving courses in First Class. I doubt whether 'landing drinks' are still served these days!!!
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IMO if the rumoured problem had become known to any other crewmember and/or passenger then with the best will in the world etc IMHO the captain was very boxed in when it came to options.
crewmeal: " I doubt whether 'landing drinks' are still served these days!!!" I think they were very much a last century thing........ |
and to serve a message on others?
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Originally Posted by 70 Mustang
(Post 11376630)
To call the police is another.
I would think police would only be required to stop pax from being harmed, blatant disruption, damage, risk to others. Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003 |
A difficult situation to be in. Having something like this reported to you in front of witnesses is very different to being able to have a “quiet word” with someone and suggest a discreet course of action. The fact that it’s all over the media means that there was probably very little discretion available.
At the moment there is a shortage of pilots and crew in many airlines, and a lot of flights go with a minimum legal crew complement. Standing down a crewmember for any reason will involve mandatory reports. Being presented with someone who is visibly intoxicated leaves little room for manoeuvre. |
Originally Posted by Cloudee
(Post 11376555)
You wouldn’t have ruined her life, she would have done that. By taking no formal action you’ve passed the problem on to the next guy. Command comes with responsibility.
Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
(Post 11376546)
Often at BA you don’t stay with the Cabin Crew and don’t actually perform a formal cabin crew brief so it is feasible the first time the pilot encountered this crew member was during a toilet break or her visiting the flight deck. I had this once myself when a crew member came into the flight deck and smelled like a brewery. I simply said to her that I suggest she reports to the CM that she is too unfit to operate and sit herself in the back row for the remainder of the flight or the other option would be a breath test on arrival. She removed herself, I had a further discussion with her after landing saying that if she did it again it would be the police. I can’t see much point in ruining someone’s life without giving them a chance. I also have had a mate that suggested the same to his FO at report I.e you should go unfit for duty or I will require a breath test before we proceed.
Years ago I did something similar. The F/O was very reluctant to call sick and go home but eventually did. Cloudee, I didn't pass the problem on as he thought long and hard and learnt from it. He subsequently thanked me and we became good friends. Ollie, I didn't ruin his life, in fact I definitely helped to make him into the competent Captain he is today. I'm proud of the decision I made as it neither compromised flight safety nor ruined someone's life. |
It's all a fine line isn't it and it depends on the person's history surely?
If the person is a habitual alcoholic (imo the most likely scenario for reporting to such a job under the influence/ OR drinking on the job) then the person's life would likely be improved in the long term by being forced to face the issue; would likely qualify for help from the airline (it's no longer the case where you just sack an alcoholic and that's that) and they'd perhaps benefit into the future. If the person just showed up after a very late night with her pals drinking (less likely at 41 as opposed to 21) then yes a quiet word would perhaps be more appropriate. If the person randomly just decided this was the flight they'd have a few miniatures then a stern talking to is also perhaps appropriate but it's still gross misconduct and a slap in the face to flight safety so I'd probably report it. As some folk have said - being a Captain brings with it responsibility for the safety of the rest of the crew and the passengers. |
Originally Posted by Ollie Onion
(Post 11376546)
Often at BA you don’t stay with the Cabin Crew and don’t actually perform a formal cabin crew brief so it is feasible the first time the pilot encountered this crew member was during a toilet break or her visiting the flight deck..
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Originally Posted by airspeed75
(Post 11376704)
It's all a fine line isn't it and it depends on the person's history surely?
If the person is a habitual alcoholic (imo the most likely scenario for reporting to such a drop under the influence/ OR drinking on the job) then the person's life would likely be improved in the long term by being forced to face the issue; would likely qualify for help from the airline (it's no longer the case where you just sack an alcoholic and that's that) and they'd perhaps benefit into the future. If the person just showed up after a very late night with her pals drinking (less likely at 41 as opposed to 21) then yes a quiet word would perhaps be more appropriate. If the person randomly just decided this was the flight they'd have a few miniatures then a stern talking to is also perhaps appropriate but it's still gross misconduct and a slap in the face to flight safety so I'd probably report it. As some folk have said - being a Captain brings with it responsibility for the safety of the rest of the crew and the passengers. |
"On return from Gran Canaria".
ie sector 2. How was this not spotted and acted upon on sector 1? Hard to credit that she was over the limit 11-12hrs after coming on duty (few people I imagine drink heavily and immediately go to work as cabin crew) so the implication may well be that she was drinking from the bar - ie theft too. The poor Captain was put in a hideous position. Do nothing and be complicit to the crime or do his legally required duty and find himself reviled in the crewroom. Sadly it's his duty to act, a part of being a Professional. Compassion is probably the right approach in the crewroon at report time but doesn't enter into it once actually on duty and has no place in such an event unless the Captain chooses to abrogate his Professional duty and become an accessory to the offence. |
Originally Posted by meleagertoo
(Post 11376730)
"On return from Gran Canaria".
ie sector 2. How was this not spotted and acted upon on sector 1? Hard to credit that she was over the limit 11-12hrs after coming on duty (few people I imagine drink heavily and immediately go to work as cabin crew) so the implication may well be that she was drinking from the bar - ie theft too. The poor Captain was put in a hideous position. Do nothing and be complicit to the crime or do his legally required duty and find himself reviled in the crewroom. Sadly it's his duty to act, a part of being a Professional. Compassion doesn't enter into this and has no place in such an event unless the Captain chooses to abrogate his Professional duty and become an accessory to the offence. |
Originally Posted by FullWings
(Post 11376661)
A difficult situation to be in. Having something like this reported to you in front of witnesses is very different to being able to have a “quiet word” with someone and suggest a discreet course of action..
Unfortunately somebody on the crew (who was not involved at all in the evenings events) wasn't feeling quite as "comradery" and the problem got back to base... Not real harm was done but I'm afraid post that incident my advice to aspiring commanders was in this modern world once a third party is witness or even hears about something questionable you have to CYA. |
Reporting is one thing…
… no, reporting a suspicion of intoxication onboard by aircrew always leads to management calling the police. Who do you think can carry out the drug and alcohol tests? There’s no such thing as reporting a crew member who is drunk, and they go home to sort out their hangover afterwards. The law in unforgiving, maybe for you brits is more relaxed? In the real world that doesn’t happen and the airline will always look to cover their backs. |
Originally Posted by meleagertoo
(Post 11376730)
"On return from Gran Canaria".
ie sector 2. How was this not spotted and acted upon on sector 1? Hard to credit that she was over the limit 11-12hrs after coming on duty (few people I imagine drink heavily and immediately go to work as cabin crew) so the implication may well be that she was drinking from the bar - ie theft too. The poor Captain was put in a hideous position. Do nothing and be complicit to the crime or do his legally required duty and find himself reviled in the crewroom. Sadly it's his duty to act, a part of being a Professional. Compassion is probably the right approach in the crewroon at report time but doesn't enter into it once actually on duty and has no place in such an event unless the Captain chooses to abrogate his Professional duty and become an accessory to the offence. “complicit to the crime” “ accessory to the offence”morally maybe, legally on what basis? Criminal law or SERA ? And it is of course an alleged crime until proven. Smelling of alcohol isn’t a crime and is very subjective anyway. The impairment ( reason undiagnosed in flight ) was dealt with. The problem ( professional duty) is how to prevent said crew member from operating impaired in the future. Tested, charged ,sacked, convicted and jailed will solve the problem but I feel for our colleague who needs compassion and help. |
70 Mustang
Perhaps it is a generational thing? " When i started, i was told there were very few real rules. Don't break the airplane, don't hurt anybody, what happens in the flt deck, stays in the flt deck, what happens in the cabin, stays in the cabin. As much as possible. Other than that, deal with it "in house." The less individuals informed, the better. I'm not sure you can rely on the same solidarity now .........(now that might be the generational thing and how they are managed)... |
I'll take a bet that everyone here has at some point in their career made a mistake which was successfully 'covered up' by their colleague(s), which otherwise would have landed them in a spot of bother with the company.
The scenario of stealing from the bar and drinking enroute is the only one which would leave no options of exercising compassion, especially as it must have been reported by others. |
Given I no longer have a say in this, probably my final input on this..
Given all we have is an MSM report on this I'm not sure why there seems to have been a bit of a rush to assume what the captain did or didn't do or say to anybody, or indeed what their entire role in the incident was....there seems to have been a bit of a rush to claim they could have been handled more sympathetically, but who knows? Maybe when/if this sadly goes court we will be better informed. |
Originally Posted by wiggy
(Post 11376808)
Given I no longer have a say in this, probably my final input on this..
Given all we have is an MSM report on this I'm not sure why there seems to have been a bit of a rush to assume what the captain did or didn't do or say to anybody, or indeed what their entire role in the incident was....there seems to have been a bit of a rush to claim they could have been handled more sympathetically, but who knows? Maybe when/if this sadly goes court we will be better informed. |
For one we don’t know if an individual is in a particular stressful period of their life. Divorce, break-up, custody battles, financial problems, eviction pending or a multitude of other reasons.
You can make the assumption that an individual is a functioning alcoholic but you don’t know that for sure. Showing up unfit for duty maybe habitual or a one time never happens again. We can’t end someone’s career on the 50/50 chance we may be wrong. |
Originally Posted by B2N2
(Post 11376840)
For one we don’t know if an individual is in a particular stressful period of their life. Divorce, break-up, custody battles, financial problems, eviction pending or a multitude of other reasons.
You can make the assumption that an individual is a functioning alcoholic but you don’t know that for sure. Showing up unfit for duty maybe habitual or a one time never happens again. We can’t end someone’s career on the 50/50 chance we may be wrong. |
Originally Posted by SWBKCB
(Post 11376815)
Agreed - for all we know she was can-canning up and down the aisle or pouring coffee over customers, or maybe just a victim of a malicious colleague ("if you don't do something about it, I'll report you..."). So many bricks being made from so little straw.
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Agreed...here's why - back end of my career I stupidly thought we had resolved a problem down route to everybody's satisfaction. |
Originally Posted by Flyhighfirst
(Post 11376939)
Sorry. You are forgetting this person tested over the limit. They can not under any circumstances be a victim. They may have a problem, and this may force them to deal with it, but a victim they are not!
Passengers looked on in shock as their Airbus A320 parked on a remote stand and was locked down for 45 minutes on arrival in the UK on Thursday afternoon. |
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