Ethiopian asleep
 

Still at 37000 ft over Addis...

they were woken up by the autopilot disconnecting (?)....

Here is a news story with a bit more detail.

No fatigue problems of course.

I hope that each airline where this type of incident occurs asks itself the right questions:
- what combination of circumstances have led to BOTH pilots falling asleep in cruise?
- what must be changed to avoid a repetition of these circumstances?
- what safeguarding procedure can be put in place to wake up the pilots well before before a cavalry charge does it?

Does the A/P on the 737 disengage at the end of a FMC programmed route whilst in LNAV?

I was under the impression that cabin crew were required to make fairly regular visits to the FD? Note that although a fairly short flight (90 mins or so) it departs ADD at 0110, returning at 0620. The question is, do the crew make an earlier couple of rotations before that?

Was this a pax or cargo flt?

Zzzzzzz…..
 

An interesting case.

after a long boring leg over the big blue ocean, can’t really blame the crew for nodding off, especially if one of the crew was scheduled for a bit of “rest in chair” it doesn’t take too much for the other to be drawn into similar state.

thankfully as the A/P reached it’s end of programming and the “boop boop boop” began booping - someone woke up.

It’s a fine example as to why descent still needs to be dialled in and actively commanded and activated - surprised ATC let the aircraft get so far (overflying the intended destination field) without further investigation, how far would it have gone? fuel starvation? Engine flame out?

Obviously nobody knows what the glide distance is on a two engine out 787 from FL370 but I expect there are plenty of places this plane could of nailed in to - in adjoining countries and possible population areas……

Coachcpt, just FYI, it was a relatively short overland flight by a B737-800. Today's flight is indeed operated by B787.

JanetFlight, I did check that and it's a pax flight.

Could happen to any of us (except, of course, to all of us retired guys) so, let's not judge too harshly. 😉

Didn't use to... :} maybe it wanted overtime.

I believe the aircraft would continue on its present heading.

No doubt both pilots scrupulously avoided reading a decent book or magazine or watched a movie to avoid forgetting where they were for a moment and getting lost in fiction/entertainment.

I bet they stuck to Ops manuals and tech docs to keep them sharp as tacks.

/satire

Falling asleep at the wheel is unforgivable ......UNFORGIVABLE!!!!!!!!!

Doubt the autopilot it would drop out at the end of the route. I think it just goes into track hold. More likely they were woken by the pilot response warning.

Little alarm clocks are cheap

Standard response from Ethiopean (see https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-62602611)

My emphasis added, so why are they (and others) continuing to send out unrested pilots assuming fatigue to be a factor?

In a long gone era I would often ask to sit in the cockpit on long haul flights and can't help feel that the crew enjoyed some of the conversations we had and probably because it gave them a bit of variety. Though they usually seemed to have a fair bit of "admin" to do as well, I've no idea what it is like now.

Well......if it happens, it happens for a reason. What would your solution be in this instance?

Normally cabin crew are required to contact the flight deck every 20 mins or so, in person or via the inter-phone, to check all is well.

I am wondering if something bad is happening to crew training now, as well as fatiguing rosters?

On quiet long-haul flights, if I wasn't reading something or doing the crossword, I would listen to Radio 4 on the ADF receiver, which helped keep me alert. Important to be doing something - in the absence of inputs a tired brain will tend to go to sleep.

Listening to Radio 4 normally sends me to sleep.

you keep using that word… I don’t think it means what you think it means.

Don't believe B737 has a pilot response warning or anything similar.

At the end of the route I think you get FMC message and autopilot stays on. Nothing particularly loud that I'm aware of.

Comms and radar coverage spotty in this part of the world. Addis probably wasn't aware they weren't descending until they were tens of miles out.

Cabin crew should be checking though. Maybe Ethiopian don't do that or let it slip.

Fatigue or sleep deprivation. A long while back my co-pilot fell asleep on base leg into Gatwick. Early morning & I had to reach over to his shoulder & shake him awake. Obviously I was PF, but not sure how much PM I got. However we landed safely. (737-300) taught me a lesson that when the human body says enough is enough it will go to sleep whatever. We are all human maybe some understanding is in order.
(co-pilot had been awake during the descent)

If you read forums regarding ET employment and Ethiopian civil aviation authority, you will find a common theme. Lack of work/rest rules or flagrant violation of them, lots of flying, poor treatment by management, zero enforcement of regulations and a punitive culture and lack of oversight. The crew will be punished for this, there will be zero change in safety protocols or oversight and pilots will continue to fly above max duty regs and norms.

In all my 27000 hours I have never even come close to putting 300 tonnes or the lives of 300 pax in jeopardy by falling asleep
FLY THE AIRCRAFT is the first thing you learn when training and if you can't do that then you should not be up the front.

I meant it to mean you deserve the wrath of god if you fall asleep as pic anyway you cant spell proper English at the best of times (tire route etc) and no, I don't know the Queen

Most pilots, unlike you apparently, are not superhumans. Tiredness and fatigue happen and not all carriers do allow blame free fatigue calls, some routinely roster in extremely fatigue inducing ways and of course the result is obvious.

Combine that with routine use of controlled rest on the flight deck, which is actually meant as an emergency procedure to regain enough alertness for a safe landing, and you habe a recipe for both falling asleep. Especially at night and while the operating environment is fairly quiet (and without CPDLC which is a nice alarm by itself).

And on most short to medium range flights we do not have the luxury of a third or fourth pilot o cover for us while we rest or even sleep.

I am not shifting from my zero tolerance stance on falling asleep as pic.
I am not claiming to be superhuman but my skipper and I would always be well rested for a long haul across the pond.
We did have the luxury of a third crew member which allows a rest during the flight but I defy any self respecting commander to sleep when travelling at .75 and having 300 souls on board.
Yes it gets tedious calling levels and headings for most flights and we would welcome some chop or a unexpected level change just for "something to do"
Falling asleep is as funny as a fire warning in the cruise and I would bin your epaulettes as a consequence

You fly for BA, right?

Not if they routinely had "... the luxury of a third crew member which allows a rest during the flight"...

You are not claiming to be an idiot either but it is obvious for all to see.

ICYMI the crew were operating a B737. It can neither accommodate 300 SOB or has a third crew member unless there is some form of training or checking going on. You are also assuming that the crew were only operating 1 sector. This could have been sector 4 which had included a BOC duty. They did not fall asleep because they were incompetent or couldn't give a flying f#$k for the people in the back. They probably fell asleep because they were fatigued to a point that their bodies decided that the eyes were to close and the brain was to close down to rejuvenate. Fatigue is a world-wide problem in aviation and will only get worse with lax regulators and airlines wanting to make up for lost revenue from the last 2 years.

I wonder what sort of airliner carries 300 passengers and only cruises at .75? Furthermore, we haven't had Souls on Board for quite some time (SOB) - it should be People on Board (POB).

27,000 hours and still a first officer?

Absolutism is always bad. Falling asleep as a PIC (or SIC) can be the safest course of action in many instances, if done in a controlled manner. Which means for a fairly short duration to prevent deep sleep and sleep inertia, cabin crew has to be informed and regular checks done.
Several things to unpack here. Apparently you have never operated on a narrowbody aircraft and short haul route structure. Which means that you might be on day six or seven of your duty block, having done four or five sectors each day always under considerable time pressure. Which is quite different from leisurely climbing aboard your already prepared widebody aircraft, operating just one sector being fed first class food (sans the wine) and then take a nice nap before doing the only landing for that month and having another day or two to relax afterwards before flying back the same way and then having a week off. And yes, i know reality looks quite differently for most long haul crew anyway.

The only thing is of course, the commander in this case, according to you, would not be able to have that nap as he doesn’t stop being the commander even in the bunk.

Well this idiot is still saying falling asleep whatever the reason is unacceptable the rest is semantics

Unlikely...ADD radar and comms are quite good. Plus I believe they have ADS-B and should have been quickly able to identify the plane wasn't descending or programmed to descend as it was supposed to by that point.

Sure. And pilots shouldn't crash perfectly good aircraft into the ground, yet here we are....

When did you retire? It's obvious that you've haven't quite experienced the 'limits as targets' lifestyle that airline flying has become. Day 6 of 6 on leg 4 of 4 at the end of a 100 hour month? I've done those hours, and those pairings. And whilst it was a high, it wasn't that much higher than the average I'd done for the last six months (85-95 hrs per calendar month). You can preach on about 'UNFORGIVABLE!!!111!' as much as you like, but true professionals might want to take tiny little looky-loo at possible causes before they go all high and mighty. That is, like it or not, how aviation has actually advanced. You're basically saying both the crew intended to fall asleep and overfly their destination? Or did they not intend that? If not, why did it still happen? Did they not try and stay awake hard enough? So.....we could just 'try harder' next time, that's really going to be your final answer? Sure you weren't in management at some point? I'm not ruling out blatant dereliction of duty, but I would advocate for taking a closer look. Fatigue is hard to combat, both from a practical perspective, AND ESPECIALLY from a managerial and regulatory perspective.

Frankly, it's only the professionalism of the crew that keeps them awake with some of these ridiculous rostering practices......and of course 'we value safety as our number on priority, and all operations are according to the strictest standards etc etc bla bla'. Meanwhile, back at rostering....

Like I've said before - the planes are so good now that they don't crash enough to keep airline managers honest anymore. Which is why we see some of these ridiculous causes and incidents now.

/rant

Nor have I.

But I have taken off - having rested responsibly and feeling fine - only to find 8 hours later that I am getting sleepy. If that happens I mitigate it by telling the other pilot, taking 20 mins controlled rest, and drinking coffee etc.

We didn't have bunks either, so "sleeping" as one of heavy crew was extremely unsatisfactory - curled on the floor at the back of the cockpit (yes, really), or possibly having a seat in the cabin with a curtain round it. The curtain of course did not prevent the conversations of the passengers having drinking parties coming through.

So, what did you do if you felt sleepy on a flight? Did you immediately open the DV window and jump out - since "obviously" you were unfit to be in the cockpit?

Look, I realise you are trolling, but nobody falls asleep at work on purpose. Spare a thought for those who do fall asleep, owing to terrible rosters, (probably), and perhaps have a think about why this might happen.

Better scheduling, more rest before flight and less hours every week/month/year will help but till it happens some threat mitigation survival techniques need to be deviced. Fatigue should be included in briefing as a threat. Like many suggesting cabin crew periodic check, hot towel/ cold towel, more caffeine may be or when it's worse a Modafinil tablet. It's suggested to combat pilots so couldn't be a psychotropic substance. Better check it. I used it on a nine hours drive starting early morning and it did help. May be they knew all this but missed out. If not, good to start now.

You can't just pop Modafinil like sweeties and they are - certainly IMHO - prescribed medication and for certain medical conditions only. Should you have such a medical condition you should not be flying without having declared it to your company and declared to and agreed by your AME.

LOL. I know what you meant, and you're right, but it still gave me a chuckle. Thanks.