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-   -   Ukraine and associated airspace (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/645362-ukraine-associated-airspace.html)

andrasz 26th Feb 2022 19:38

LH718 MUC ICN turned around a little north of Perm and is returning to MUC.
The only other EU registered passenger flights I can see over Russia are five AY planes and AF into NRT, soon to leave Russian airspace.

Max Tow 26th Feb 2022 21:39

Odd that U.S. and Canada are still allowing Russian airlines to overfly en route to Caribbean eg AZV787 currently over Quebec en route LED to VRA with happy holidaymakers.

nnc0 26th Feb 2022 23:37


Originally Posted by Max Tow (Post 11191172)
Odd that U.S. and Canada are still allowing Russian airlines to overfly en route to Caribbean eg AZV787 currently over Quebec en route LED to VRA with happy holidaymakers.

Waiting for their own carriers to get some of their Long Haul routes sorted before closing their airspace to the Russians?

Max Tow 27th Feb 2022 00:02


Originally Posted by nnc0 (Post 11191233)
Waiting for their own carriers to get some of their Long Haul routes sorted before closing their airspace to the Russians?

Hasn't that already happened, at least with DL & AA?

albatross 27th Feb 2022 00:10


Originally Posted by Max Tow (Post 11191172)
Odd that U.S. and Canada are still allowing Russian airlines to overfly en route to Caribbean eg AZV787 currently over Quebec en route LED to VRA with happy holidaymakers.

They, the EU, Nato Countries, Japan, Australia and other asian countries and other countries worldwide should close Airspace, airports. Closing all ports to Russian and their allies Merchant Ships could be effective.

Time to stand up to the demented school bully.


On Track 27th Feb 2022 04:25

SEATO? That disappeared a long time ago.

A319 27th Feb 2022 08:36

Denmark is closing down…

paperHanger 27th Feb 2022 08:58


Originally Posted by A319 (Post 11191371)
Denmark is closing down…

This mornings Aeroflot flight into Copenhagen is still en route.

https://www.flightradar24.com/AFL2658/2af52c2a

Meanwhile, despite Germany's apparent closing of airspace to Russia .. the Aeroflot Moscow to Berlin service is running ...

https://www.flightradar24.com/AFL2568/2af530cf

And cargo still running from DE to Moscow ..

https://www.flightradar24.com/ABW682/2af51dbb

Less Hair 27th Feb 2022 09:33

Germany wil close its airspace for russian a/c today at 3 PM local.

Max Tow 27th Feb 2022 10:15

Anyone know why Biden still won't join in the airspace ban?

Clipper7 27th Feb 2022 10:16

Iceland closes its airspace to Russian a/c
 
… and bans Russian citizens from entering the country.

Atlantic Explorer 27th Feb 2022 10:43

Very soon, Russia is going to have a lot of aircraft sat on the ground with nowhere to go!

Big Pistons Forever 27th Feb 2022 14:00

Canada has also just announced an airspace ban for Russian aircraft

nivsy 27th Feb 2022 14:06


Originally Posted by Atlantic Explorer (Post 11191429)
Very soon, Russia is going to have a lot of aircraft sat on the ground with nowhere to go!

To be fair, we have all experienced that over the past two years.

voyageur9 27th Feb 2022 14:09

Aeroflot 158 is currently overflying Canada

But more interestingly, Aeroflot 124 a SVO-JFK B777 is currently over Norway and its flightplan crosses Canada enroute to JFK.

So Ottawa's claim of "with immediate effect" is about to be tested.


Beamr 27th Feb 2022 14:48

Ok, so what happens if Aeroflot pushes onwards and declares emergency at around newfoundland? Nearest suitable vectored, AC confiscated and pax...?

ex-EGLL 27th Feb 2022 15:09


Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever (Post 11191568)
Canada has also just announced an airspace ban for Russian aircraft

Would that include the Ocean, or is that "ICAO protected"?

albatross 27th Feb 2022 15:53


Originally Posted by On Track (Post 11191295)
SEATO? That disappeared a long time ago.

My bad, typing too fast and thinking too slow. Post edited.

voyageur9 27th Feb 2022 16:02


Originally Posted by voyageur9 (Post 11191577)
Aeroflot 124 a SVO-JFK B777 ... flightplan crosses Canada enroute to JFK.

So Ottawa's claim of "with immediate effect" is about to be tested.

124 (currently beyond radar range) seems to be threading the strait between Iceland and Greenland. If so, I wonder if it has sufficient fuel to stay off the Newfoundland and Nova Scotia coasts and get to JFK via an oceanic course.

Richard Taylor 27th Feb 2022 16:36

FR24 says AFL124 is diverting, not yet confirmed where.
Edit: now says back to SVO.

voyageur9 27th Feb 2022 16:38

And Flightradar claims Aeroflot 124 is diverting back to Moscow. Although not at all clear how it will get there with all the Nordic airspace also closed

Flyhighfirst 27th Feb 2022 17:11


Originally Posted by voyageur9 (Post 11191657)
And Flightradar claims Aeroflot 124 is diverting back to Moscow. Although not at all clear how it will get there with all the Nordic airspace also closed

Countries are not going to let aircraft crash. Planes in the air will be allowed back home. Just no new flights plans will be allowed from now.

EddyCurr 27th Feb 2022 17:17


Originally Posted by ex-EGLL (Post 11191598)

Originally Posted by Big Pistons Forever
Canada has also just announced an airspace ban for Russian aircraft

Would that include the Ocean, or is that "ICAO protected"?

"News release February 27, 2022 Ottawa"
.
"The Government of Canada is prohibiting the operation of Russian-owned, chartered or operated aircraft in Canadian airspace, including in the airspace above Canada’s territorial waters."
.
Previously in articles about airspace closures, there were comments about exceptions to be made for diplomatic missions and the like. What I am reading presently makes no mention of exceptions.

Closing airspace in peace time is one thing. Enforcing closure during a war where Russia is the aggressor is something else again. Someone lay out for me the probable sequence of escalations in the event of an intrusion ...

Now then, financial sanctions bear the prospect of being a different matter altogether:
.
Russia central bank urges calm amid cash run fears
By Dearbail Jordan
BBC News 2022.02.27

Russia's central bank said that customers of sanctioned banks would be unable to use their bank cards outside Russia. It also said it will be "impossible" to use cards issued by sanctioned banks for Google Pay or Apple Pay.
.
"банковская карта отклонена !"

voyageur9 27th Feb 2022 17:17


Originally Posted by Flyhighfirst (Post 11191678)
Countries are not going to let aircraft crash. Planes in the air will be allowed back home. Just no new flights plans will be allowed from now.

I understand. But what happens to Aeroflot flights that landed today in Cancun and Havana. Are they stuck there? Or do they get a pass back to Moscow.

crewmeal 27th Feb 2022 17:24

Will Sleepy Joe ban all Russian traffic as well? Canada has!

DaveReidUK 27th Feb 2022 17:36


Originally Posted by EddyCurr (Post 11191684)
Someone lay out for me the probable sequence of escalations in the event of an intrusion ...

No Russian civilian aircraft will intentionally enter closed airspace, so the question is academic.



Yeehaw22 27th Feb 2022 17:54


Originally Posted by voyageur9 (Post 11191686)
I understand. But what happens to Aeroflot flights that landed today in Cancun and Havana. Are they stuck there? Or do they get a pass back to Moscow.

Also what about Russian nationals stuck overseas? Will repatriation be allowed or will they have to get home via none closed airspace routes?

At least whilst abroad they will be able to see more of the true reasons for their sanctions rather than putin controlled 'news' at home.

eu01 27th Feb 2022 18:49


Originally Posted by Yeehaw22 (Post 11191708)
abroad they will be able to see more of the true reasons for their sanctions rather than putin controlled 'news' at home.

...with their credit cards out of use :ok: a pure pleasure.

Flyhighfirst 27th Feb 2022 19:01


Originally Posted by voyageur9 (Post 11191686)
I understand. But what happens to Aeroflot flights that landed today in Cancun and Havana. Are they stuck there? Or do they get a pass back to Moscow.

If they leave without pax they should be able to make a route back into Russian airspace without any incursions into closed airspace.

As for those Russian citizens stranded. They can make their own way to
as close as possible and then go
overland?

andrasz 27th Feb 2022 19:17


Originally Posted by Flyhighfirst (Post 11191756)
If they leave without pax they should be able to make a route back into Russian airspace without any incursions into closed airspace.

They can easily make it back even with pax taking the long route via North Africa/ME with a technical stop somewhere.

Squawk_ident 27th Feb 2022 19:51

It's interesting to observe the AFL flights between KGD/Kaliningrad and Russia on FR24. Because of the different bans, they can't fly in the forbiden FIRs and so they fly ON the FIRs limits until they reach the good Russian airspace. EL AL does exactly the same by flying on the FIR boundary between Egypt and Saudi Arabia when they go to the East.

voyageur9 27th Feb 2022 20:41

Both AFL157 Punta Cana to SVO and AFL111 MIA-SVO are in the air. Both have filed flight plans that enter Canadian airspace. Both flights could (depending on fuel loaded) avoid Canadian airspace -- but not EU and Nordic.

It will be interesting to see if "with immediate effect" actually means AFL flights get a one-way free pass back to Putinland


Rt Hon Jim Hacker MP 27th Feb 2022 20:51

I see Aeroflot overflying Turkey. As a NATO member I would like to see the Turks offer the same hospitality to all Russian owned/operated aircraft as the rest of NATO. Ground their bloody fleet so they can only fly domestic routes until the spares inventory runs out.

BRUpax 27th Feb 2022 20:53

To me it would make sense that "repatriation" flights are exempt.

Flyhighfirst 27th Feb 2022 21:25


Originally Posted by andrasz (Post 11191765)
They can easily make it back even with pax taking the long route via North Africa/ME with a technical stop somewhere.

If I was the airline I would not want to be planning any technical stops right now. More than likely your plane is gone for good no matter if you think it’s a friendly country. Right now I don’t think Russia has any friends.

Dump the passengers and get the aircraft back. You can pay to get the pax back in alternative carriers.

I think the way this is shaping up anything confiscated is never going to be returned. Houses, yachts, cars, planes…

As it should be, all proceeds sent to Ukraine for reparations.

RHagrid 27th Feb 2022 21:28


Originally Posted by voyageur9 (Post 11191820)
Both AFL157 Punta Cana to SVO and AFL111 MIA-SVO are in the air. Both have filed flight plans that enter Canadian airspace. Both flights could (depending on fuel loaded) avoid Canadian airspace -- but not EU and Nordic.

It will be interesting to see if "with immediate effect" actually means AFL flights get a one-way free pass back to Putinland

Looks like AFL111 is being let through by the Canadians. So the NOTAM from 16.41UTC today was basically pointless. Well done!!

triplosete 28th Feb 2022 00:08


Originally Posted by RHagrid (Post 11191843)
Looks like AFL111 is being let through by the Canadians. So the NOTAM from 16.41UTC today was basically pointless. Well done!!

That same NOTAM also had this:

THIS RESTRICTION DOES NOT APPLY TO ANY AIRCRAFT FLYING IN ACCORDANCE WITH PERMISSION FROM CANADA'S MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT. AFFECTED AIRCRAFT WISHING TO OBTAIN AN AUTHORIZATION OR CLEARANCE INTO THE ABOVE-MENTIONED AIRSPACE MAY APPLY TO THE MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT AT 1-877-992-6853 OR 1-613-992-6853. 27 FEB 16:41 2022 UNTIL 25 MAY 16:00 2022 ESTIMATED. CREATED: 27 FEB 16:41 2022

fdr 28th Feb 2022 01:12


Originally Posted by Flyhighfirst (Post 11191842)
If I was the airline I would not want to be planning any technical stops right now. More than likely your plane is gone for good no matter if you think it’s a friendly country. Right now I don’t think Russia has any friends.

Dump the passengers and get the aircraft back. You can pay to get the pax back in alternative carriers.

I think the way this is shaping up anything confiscated is never going to be returned. Houses, yachts, cars, planes…

As it should be, all proceeds sent to Ukraine for reparations.

  1. The UN announced last week, 2 days before PUTINIA invaded a sovereign neighbor that the 51 Billion reparations for the 1990 Iraq invasion of Kuwait had been paid back. I would think that the freezing of PUTINIA government-owned banks, including those that are essentially dedicated to supporting his military, will make the reparations faster this time round. Apparently the former KGB emperor of the country of organized crime and oligarchs that have had a rapacious appetite to plunder the natural resources of the Rodina didn't listen to the news on that day; he was too busy lying to the rest of the world.
  2. Have little sympathy for the oligarchs wealth being confiscated, and first up being applied to compensate their victims in Ukraine, and the balance being put towards the recovery of Ukraine from the numb skull actions of Putin. The oligarchs have made hay by empowering Putin, they are the problem as much as he is.
  3. Organised crime from the former USSR is a major threat to the rest of the world, and nothing has been done worth a damn to check that. It is an issue in the USA, and in UK, and within Europe. This is a great time to shut them down, and kick their sorry butts out to the 12 mile limit off Kamchatka, and give them oars. The greatest export from Russia has been AK74's and organised crime. Putin is the peak of the criminal syndicate that Russia has become.
  4. Ordinarily, I would have great sympathy for the populace of Russia that are caught outside of their state as borders close, ordinarily. Until their crime boss, Putin elevated nuclear alert status. After that, they can look after themselves. Just like those families in Ukraine that have been impacted by their government that they have passively sat by as it devolved into a crime state.

ex-EGLL 28th Feb 2022 02:32


Originally Posted by RHagrid (Post 11191843)
Looks like AFL111 is being let through by the Canadians. So the NOTAM from 16.41UTC today was basically pointless. Well done!!

Well, AFL111 made it through as you said but AFL157 (PUJ - SV0) and AFL159 (CUN-SVO) both seem to have taken a somewhat circuitous along the US Canadian border before turning to a more northerly heading when east of Canadian Domestic Airspace

brak 28th Feb 2022 03:31


Originally Posted by ex-EGLL (Post 11191918)
Well, AFL111 made it through as you said but AFL157 (PUJ - SV0) and AFL159 (CUN-SVO) both seem to have taken a somewhat circuitous along the US Canadian border before turning to a more northerly heading when east of Canadian Domestic Airspace

https://www.cnn.com/europe/live-news...47079bf0d6f4e2

“We are aware that Aeroflot flight 111 violated the prohibition put in place earlier today on Russian flights using Canadian airspace. We are launching a review of the conduct of Aeroflot and the independent air navigation service provider, NAVCAN, leading up to this violation. We will not hesitate to take appropriate enforcement action and other measures to prevent future violations,” Transport Canada said Sunday


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