Pilot who turned up drunk to fly United Airlines Glasgow to Newark jailed
 

Received a 10 month sentence, it appears Gulliver won’t be travelling for a while, see link

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotla...-west-59308991

Slight thread creep but a curious and interesting article here on possible breath test false-positives when “fasting”……now a popular weight loss and control practice.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16894360/

Happens all the time. United pilots need a crew lounge for the Paisley Sheriff Court.

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From the BBC:

Pilots arrested at Glasgow Airport before boarding US flight

Published 3 August 2019

The men, aged 45 and 61, have not been charged but remain in custody and are expected to appear before Paisley Sheriff Court on Tuesday.Police Scotland confirmed officers were called to the airport at 07:35 BST.

The men were arrested before boarding flight UA162.

It was expected to take off for Newark at about 09:00 but was cancelled.

United Airlines said in a statement the safety of its customers and crew was "always our top priority".Pilots jailed It said: "We hold all of our employees to the highest standards and have a strict, no tolerance policy for alcohol.

"These pilots were immediately removed from service and we are fully cooperating with local authorities.

"At this time, we are working to get our customers back on their journey as soon as possible."

A Police Scotland spokeswoman confirmed two men, aged 61 and 45, have been arrested and remain in police custody pending a scheduled court appearance on Tuesday 6 August for alleged offences under the Railways and Transport Safety Act 2003.

The legislation covers carrying out pilot duties while under the influence of alcohol or drugs.

The limit for alcohol detected in the breath for pilots is less than half the limit for drivers in Scotland.

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Pilot Paul Grebenc jailed for drinking before flight

Published 23 March 2017

A pilot has been jailed after he admitted boarding a flight he was due to help fly while more than double the drink-fly alcohol limit.

First Officer Paul Grebenc, 35, was taken off a United Airlines plane at Glasgow Airport on 27 August 2016.

The police were contacted after Grebenc's co-pilot, Carlos Roberto Licona, went through security and staff smelled alcohol on his breath.

Grebenc, from Humble in Texas, was sentenced to 10 months in prison.

Licona was jailed for 15 months on 10 March after he also admitted attempting to board the flight while drunk.

Paisley Sheriff Court heard that on the morning of 27 August, Grebenc and his United Airlines colleagues were brought to Glasgow Airport from the Hilton Hotel in Glasgow, where they had spent the night, having flown from the US to Scotland the previous day.

They were due to fly a Boeing 757 to Newark, New Jersey, with take-off scheduled for 09:00.

As they passed through the staff search area, security staff smelled alcohol on the breath of the other First Officer, Carlos Licona, and raised the alarm.

Removed from planePolice were contacted and went to the departure gate, where Licona and Grebenc - who was also a US Air Force reservist - were removed from the flight.

Fiscal Depute Scot Dignan said: "Police did not go on board the aircraft as they wanted to be discreet and not alarm passengers.

"Grebenc was asked to disembark with Licona as police also had suspicions regarding him.

"He was taken to a quieter spot. At about 09:30 he was asked to provide a specimen of breath for analysis which proved positive and he was taken in a marked police vehicle to Govan police station."

Grebenc's sample revealed he had 42 milligrams of alcohol in 100ml of blood - more than double the 20 milligrams limit for flying.

The flight, carrying 141 passengers, was delayed for nine hours.

Sentencing Grebenc, Sheriff David Pender said: "I realise you have had several major difficulties in your personal life and this has had an impact on your consumption of alcohol.

"While you have not been a commercial pilot for very long, you have vast skill as a US Air Force pilot and you must be aware of the dangers of flying under the influence of alcohol.

"You also deliberately flouted your employer's guidelines and ignored what they regard as a safe eight-hour gap between drinking alcohol and being on duty."Pilot's licence Grebenc admitted performing "an activity ancillary to an aviation function" at stand 28 at Glasgow Airport.

David McKie, defending Grebenc, said: "He takes full responsibility for his actions."

Grebenc's wife is also a pilot with the US Air Force and the couple, who live on an air base in Mississippi, have two children aged two and four.

Mr McKie told the court that the case would have "catastrophic consequences" for his client and could see him being dishonourably discharged from the US Air Force and losing his pilot's licence.

A United Airlines spokesman said: "We hold all of our employees to the highest standards. This pilot was immediately removed from service and his flying duties in August 2016."

People have misfired by claiming they "smelled alcohol on a person's breath" when it was ketones from a fat-and-protein intensive diet, back when that was very fashionable ("South Beach Diet"). Accurate testing showed no alcohol in the person's breath or blood. I recall one such incident involved a pilot.

In this case, with a Police alcohol meter showing them far over the limit, eyewitness evidence they had been drinking within the legal time limit for flying, and an admission of guilt, I think we're quite far from conviction based on a cheap-o car breathalyser interlock. On the other hand, clearly a pilot should not suffer adverse consequences only on the basis of a simple device such as those on a car which lack good control of their maintenance, calibration, usage circumstances, etc.

I wonder what sentence he would have been given if he were flying over the limit in the US...

Pilots are going to show up drunk for a flight, it's an unfortunate fact of life in the flying business. In my observation many of these incidents never make the news and some are handled administratively through an Employee Assistance Program.

A few of the many earlier PPRuNe discussions here:

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/...-arrested.html

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/...hol-delta.html

Over the legal limit again - PPRuNe Forums

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/624104-delta-pilot-suspected-drinking-arrested-msp.html

Sun Article - US Pilot Arrested for being over alcohol limit - Page 2 - PPRuNe Forums

https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/210708-american-airlines-pilot-arrested-manchester-not-guilty.html

Why the delay of over two years, between the offence and sentencing?

The wheels of justice turn slowly.

Probably the Covid19 pandemic. It has delayed hundreds, if not thousands of cases through the Courts.

Unpopular opinion here-

Clearly, showing uop drunk to fly is an enormous infraction and deserves punishment both legal and pofesstional-BUT.....

While we know for a fact that drink-driving has led to countless deaths, we can't point to the same for flying. Why is it automatically a worse crime to show up over the limit to fly, then it is to drink and drive?

Because flying an airliner is done professionally and driving a car is not.
similarly, you shouldn’t show up drunk in the control room of a nuclear power plant either. Or at the operating table in a hospital.

Because we need Pilots to be at 110% when the brown stuff hits the fan.

From a policy point of view: More people theoretically involved and can be harmed, both on board and on the ground. Much higher energies involved which increases the damage caused.

And of course the conclusion that we cannot point to massive numbers of deaths due to drinking in aviation, has to do with both a quite heavy policing of alcohol use in aviation, and very low accident numbers in general. However, there are some cases where alcohol use was at least mentioned as one possible part of the problem, like for example in the case of Aeroflot 821.

Wizofoz

Lower alcohol limits are not unique to aviation. They are quite rightly applied to most areas of public transport. For instance in the UK the limit for a train driver is 13mcg against 35mcg for a car driver.

I think it is important that pilots, like other professionals, take their role seriously enough not to turn up drunk to work.

I think you've put your finger on it.

Sallyanne1234

In Scotland the limit for car driving is 22mcg

Let me ask you this Wiz...
Would you board an aircraft and fly if you knew for a fact that the pilots were legally intoxicated?

Because I sure as hell wouldn't...

Oh, and as others have noted, there have been fatal crashes where a pilot that was drunk or under the influence of other drugs was - at the very least - a contributing factor to the accident.

I just wish the same amount of effort went into preventing tiredness and fatigue, which are the real killers. More insidious than alcohol and probably more deadly.

When I joined the industry, I was amazed at the drinking culture that prevailed; now that appears to be history, apart from the odd rare individual with problems. It used to be normal to have landing drinks, then more on the crew transport, then a quick one at the bar before heading out! These days, it’s not unusual to meet in the gym and go for a protein shake after...

You can check for intoxication and get a number. Tiredness and fatigue are akin to hypoxia as they are difficult to self-diagnose, let alone check for. How do you define “unfit to operate”? What level of tiredness is that? How do you measure it? Any sort of flying produces some level of exhaustion, minor or otherwise. Does this make night flights impossible?

Commercial pressure and regulatory capture have made a farce of FTLs in EASA land. I wouldn’t sit next to someone whose blood alcohol level was impairing their performance but I do it all the time with people who are tired. It’s the nature of the job...

The best thing would be rehabilitation for alcoholism. Alcoholism can be treated .
Anyone who cannot turn up sober to work needs counselling and possibly rehab .
it can be very sad to watch someone suffering from addictions , much nicer after they get help .

tdracer

No. But i wouldn't get in a car with a drunk driver either. My point is not that a drunk pilot hasn't transgressed and doesn't need to be sanctioned, my point is I don't see that he's done so any more than a drunk driver- yes, a car driver can kill less people, but statistically is much more likely to do so.

Someone mentioned train drivers- if one is caught over the limit, I imagined they get sacked and fined- but would they get a ten month jail term if they hadn't actually harmed anyone?

Gordon3333

As should anyone who gets behind the wheel of a car. In either case there should be punishment. My point is, why is the punishment for a pilot SO much higher then that for a car driver, when the driver is actually FAR more likely to cause death and injury?

The sentence has to contain a measure of deterrence. Also, it's normal to punish the crime and not merely its outcome. Exceptions exist, but I for one speaking as SLF would wholly support severe sentences for such wilful negligence whether it be a taxi driver, train driver, pilot, boat skipper or whatever. Nobody should ever be allowed to gamble with other people's lives and get off lightly just because they were lucky enough not to kill someone.

Wiz, at least in the US, conviction of a DUI (Driving Under the Influence) will usually get you significant jail time - up to a year in Washington state for a first offense.
10 months for potentially putting hundreds of passengers at risk doesn't sound out of line in comparison.

Well, in most of the rest of the world, including the jurisdiction this pilot was jailed in, it's not even a criminal conviction- it's fines and disqualifications from driving for periods- sometimes even with provisions like the driver get's a restriction so he can still drive to work.

And this is my point- it seems the pinishment is nbased on the perception rather than the actual risk.

And editted to add- you're wrong. No offence within the last 7 years? manditory jail time for a DUI in Washington State is 24 HOURS......
Seattle DUI Attorney - Washington State DUI Penalties - DUI Penalties & Laws Washington State, Seattle, WA

Remember, those are the minimums. They can still get up to 364 days in the slammer if convicted. Yes, first offenses usually get off fairly lightly, but not always.
Oh, and why do you say "why is the punishment for a pilot SO much higher then that for a car driver, when the driver is actually FAR more likely to cause death and injury"? What can possibly make you believe that an intoxicated pilot is far less likely to cause death and injury than an intoxicated driver? There are large numbers of intoxicated drivers out there pretty much any Friday or Saturday night, yet they don't get into accidents all that often. Do have reason to believe that intoxicated pilots regularly fly safely?
Further, unlike most drivers, pilots are highly trained professionals who regularly have hundreds of lives in their hands - they should be held to a higher standard.

Wizofoz

... the jurisdiction this pilot was jailed in, it's not even a criminal conviction ...

Conviction for a DUI in Scotland is most definitely a criminal conviction and it is worth noting that Scotland has a lower breath/alcohol limit than the rest of the UK.

A conviction carries a minimum disqualification period of 12 months as well as the possibility of a prison term of up to six months and a fine of up to £5,000 for a first offence.

https://www.mygov.scot/drink-drive-limit-scotland

I be interested in a case, equivelent to this in terms of level of intixication, where it WASN'T lenient. It was this guys first offence, and bang- 10 months.

Because a SOBER pilot is far less likely to cause injury than a SOBER driver- Aviation today is many times safer than driving, and the things that make driving more dangerous- basically proximity to things you can run into-are magnififed even more by intoxication.

Unless you believe every pilot who turns up intoxicated is caught, then yes, there seem to be people getting away with it, as there are very few accidents where alcohol is a factor.

Yes- and loss of job, career and professional qualification would be holding them to that higher standard- but my contention is they haven't done anything worthy of greater CRIMINAL sanction.

Bellerophon

Thanks- but I'd be suprised if any first time DUI offender, absent any other record, recieved a custodial sentence- can you cite one?

I guess we're going to have to disagree on that one - I happen to think most professional pilots actually act like professionals and don't show up for work intoxicated.
Even if they are not that professional, the consequences of being caught are so severe that someone who was smart enough to become a professional pilot would be smart enough to not let it happen.

The sheer naiivety of so many of the above posts is surprising.
If young (and some not so young) people get together in an exotic new environment with time on their hands it can hardly be unexpected that some, sometime, will go on the piss and overdo it with regard to report times the following day.
Professionalism notwithstanding, shaving the limits is inevitably going to happen fairly often.
Sure, it happens far less than it used to - time was when it was pretty much the norm, and that was not too long ago either, but to imagine that it is unusual nowadays is, I think, rather surprising.

No, just no. You cannot apply such a statement on 'aviation safety' in this way!

Amongst various issues with this post the effect of intoxicating substance on a pilot could be construed as being more likely to cause injury (or death) given there's another vector dimension to flying, that there are typically many more people directly involved (slf), not to mention that the velocity at which aircraft typically travel at is much higher than most ground-based vehicles etc etc.

Think about this for a second. PPRuNe - Professional Pilots Rumour Network.
We have posters on a Professional Pilots form basically defending flying paying passengers while intoxicated.
Sometimes you just can't make this :mad: up.
I pray I never end up a passenger with one of you in the pointy end.

Trouble is td you have crews who are effectively flying whilst intoxicated every day. There are numerous studies of pilot fatigue that have equated their fatigue level to a particular level of intoxication, study results are readily accessible by a web search, don't want to give the mod a heap of reading otherwise would post links. It's OK to flog crews so they are effectively intoxicated, but they can't drink. Well, just a bit of reading perhaps. ;)

https://upperlimitaviation.edu/stres...e-in-aviation/

Megan, I understand what you're saying - and yes serious fatigue is also dangerous.
The difference is that fatigue is not easily measured, or often controlled (getting a lousy nights sleep isn't always within an individuals control).
Alcohol and other drugs are very much within the individuals control.

Pilot CRM courses should tackle this topic. Some of us will stay up till 3am on our body clocks just to get a drink in before next report. We rush to the bar like our lives depend on it. It's sad and pathetic.

First_Principal

Sure- there is also an extra person n the flight deck aleviating the situation.
Look at is this way- drunk drivers involved in accidents were obviously only detected BECAUSE they were involved in the accidant. The virtual absense of alchohol related aviation incidents suggests the few who have turned up over the limit and noit been caught have NOT caused accients.

The accident rate for commercial airliners is, of course, very low. If one pilot being over the limit doubled the risk, it would have to happen pretty often before it would be statistically likely to cause an accident. It doesn't necessarily follow that a doubled risk on a particular flight is acceptable.

TWA prohibited cockpit crew members from partaking in any alcohol consumption while on layovers

I doubt that stopped many people but maybe that type of policy is inevitable

Great shame, having a couple of drinks responsibly in good company was one of the delights of the job and a good stress reliever