Airtravel restrictions: France below 2.5 hrs
 

https://www.reuters.com/article/clim...-idUSL1N2M405W

Would be interesting to hear the arguments that pushed this all the way through ...

My original A320 TR checkride LOFT would be outlawed now. Poor folks from the Airbus ATO will now need to schedule LPL-BHX or AMS-BRU :}

I haven't been following this in detail but it's been in the works for a while as part of the conditions for allowing government money to go to AF......I guess it plays well with the Green lobby/pushes business onto the trains/releases some Orly slots for other operators.

The basic idea is to pull AF off those short routes where there is a parallel option to use the TGV.


https://www.air-journal.fr/2020-06-2...e-5221001.html

French internal politics, to please the EELV (ecological) party to get a coalition in the 2022 elections ..Already connecting flights are not affected only point-to point , there will be more conditions .. Wait and see the fat lady has not sung yet on that one . .

Is there a summary somewhere of what the regulation actually will enforce? Wiggy's link is Y2020...

If you cannot read French , use google, or basically it says : it was voted yesterday in first reading in the first chamber to cancel domestic flights that can be done by train in less that 2,5 hours( EELV wanted 4 hours) connecting flights excluded. it will be definitely amended before coming to the second vote, and in the end will need a decree to take effect not for tomorrow, and in any case it does not change much of what exists already today . Big political buzz.

I can't help feeling that the fundamental principle behind it is sound, indeed, had the European Commission had their act together we could have seen improved high-speed rail systems across the region being encouraged rather than some less useful initiatives.

But how it is implemented in France will, no doubt, be skewed by the various political needs that will have to be satisfied.

Banned for everyone or just for Air France?

In many cases quicker city centre to city centre and less of a pain. Also France has the TGV connection in many of their airports. I seem to remember AF selling combined tickets like London Lyon, then TGV to Marseille. So maybe a good idea.

Politics aside, how many routes are really affected? Are there that many RJs doing 20 minute hops or is this much ado about nothing?

Thanks, similar to others above I was curious what the practical arrangement is. Was it for everyone or just AF, which city-pairs, what exactly is a train alternative... so many questions

Now all is explained by ATC/w #5: it's the 1st reading in the lower chamber of the proposed legislation that was passed. Thus the tough times for stakeholders have just begun as the battle for the result takes place right now ...
.. but us curious outside observers really need to wait for the endresult. Significant changes of meaning are possible even with small wording adjustments.

Connections !

So no more "La Navette" shuttle flights from Paris to Toulouse? How long is a day trip supposed to take then?
Or is this some anti low cost airline strategy? Could I connect on U2 to -say- some long distance flight on AF/KLM?

@ less hair : have you read the posts above ?
its is internal French politics, buzz., does not change much to the existing situation as there are very few less than 30 min domestic flights , main affected flights by the rule would be from Nantes, which are mostly flights for the AF/KL connections but these will remain as not affected by the eventual new rule. Orly-Lyon could be affected as nearly all connections are from CDG.
@ dirk85 : yes all airlines.(as the text reads now)

The ban appears to be worded so as to exempt only connecting (i.e. multi-leg) flights, so no.

The ban mainly concern flight from ORY such as ORY-BOD, ORY-RNS, ORY-NTE, ORY-LYS, LYS-NTE. This new rule also applies to foreign carrier. however, flights ORY-MRS, ORY-TLS and ORY-NCE still remains.
The main problem is TGVs are way more expensive and not that reliable and the train connexion to CDG is a :mad: nigtmare

Flights involves are ones where a train solution exists in less than 2:30. Excluding flights to connection hubs and including all companies.
so LYS-ORY will be stopped but LYS-CDG will remain.
TLS-ORY will remain because there’s no alternative in less than 2:30.
as said previously, internal politics, bone thrown to green party.

(Afaik for AirFrance it’s 4 routes that were done in regional jets. Not a major problem)

If the SNCF service is anything like the DB I feel sorry for the passengers. I commuted by train for 10 months, and not a single time was the German ICE on time. So much for German efficiency.

As airseb has said It looks like they will continue - the trigger for cutting routes is if the journey can be done in under two and a half hours by rail and ATM you can't do Toulouse - Paris in under two and a half hours by train (there are plenty wishing you could).

For reasons of topography/geography Toulouse has ended up in a bit of a gap in the actual high speed bit of the French TGV network....the best you can usually do, I think, is around four or four and a half hours..

https://www.theguardian.com/business...convention-mps

Banana Joe

Not done long distance SNCF that much but the local rail network around Toulouse and the south west, ( used to be the RER, now TER Occitaine) which I often used for part of my journey to work, was pretty darned good and had really good punctuality..as long as there isn't a strike..

So now people will fly CGD - BCN- NCE instead to travel between the two french city , i wonder if this green genius they use elettricity or a smartphone ....

Why would they do that?

Paris-Nice is (a lot) greater than 2.5 hours by train so non-stop flights between the two cities can continue.

Nick 1

No obviously not, because CDG-NCE will be unaffected as you can't get from Paris to Nice in less than 2.5 hours (or anything close to that) by train.

This concept is clearly not finished. But to me it looks like killing smaller airports and maybe smaller airlines. France has many remote regions that need to be connected right away and France is big. TGVs don't go everywhere. And they connect at Paris.
Will the limit not kill electric flight before it is on the market?

For TLS, the line remain because Airbus headquarter is there, and is the major employer of the area. Before covid there was 23 rotations each day to Paris. There is also a project to build high speed track to Bordeaux, but not confirmed as of today.
Marseille and Nice will still have their connexion to Paris, as mentionned before

Yep, that proposed extension to the TGV network gets an airing in the local Toulouse press and elsewhere about every year or so and has done for about 40 years..TBH I think the Paris flights are safe for a while yet.

https://france3-regions.francetvinfo...e-1776991.html

Pooh-poohers of the train, consider that there is good wifi, reasonable food (except recently), more space, no seatbelts, no security, fewer idiotic announcements, and less of a trek to your destination... quite a civilized way to travel, really

So just to make sure I understood. Air France was bailed out, and as a compensation measure these short flights are now banned for everyone, with the exception of connecting flights, coincidentally operated by Air France.
So basically not only AF was saved with an insane amount of cash, but its competitors will suffer as well by having some flights made illegal? Did I get it right or am I missing something?

SOP in France and elsewhere, are you surprised??

@dirk85 : not much . The AF B$ bailout and the 2,5h ban were in fact 2 separate things initially but in politics things can merge..... Bruno Lemaire, the French economy minister said a few months ago clearly and openly that the French State will never let AF disappear. . You cannot say they do this in secret

Nothing related to Airbus being in Toulouse!
The only reasonable TGV possibility from Paris to Toulouse is the high speed line between Bordeaux and Toulouse, as per Wiggy's post.
In any case, if the line is effectively built (I am quite doubtful on that due to environment considerations), the time will be more than 2h30mn, being already 2h10mn, at the minimum from Paris to Bordeaux. So, the flights Paris to Toulouse would be kept.

However, other French organisations ask for the limit to be set-up at 4 hours instead of 2h30, which would have much more important consequences on air transport in France.

2.5 hours is a bit too long, 1.5 or possibly 2 hours would have been better as long as the route was served by a TGV.

Japan has an excellent high speed rail system and could easily do the same, with very little disruption.

In the UK, from London, rail travel predominates as far as Newcastle. North from there, even though the extra distance to Scottish cities isn’t great air travel takes over. Train to Newcastle, fly to Glasgow.

A similar ban wouldn’t be possible in the USA due to the lack of a decent rail network, let alone a high speed one.

horizon flyer

Valid point, most of the TGV station are in city centers, that is a true advantage. Most of french holliday makers choose train instead of plane to travel within the contry. It is in fact very popular, expecially for familes. I used train and plane from marseille to paris, and to be honnest, TGV is way more faster.
There is direct connexion only for CDG and LYS airport, the product use to be called "TGV Air". AF used to have a projet to have and drive their own TGV to that matter, I never knew if this was a rumor or realy true, though it would make sens nowadays

There are trains that run from Strasbourg railway station to CDG specifically for air passengers ... with AF flight numbers. Still a heck of a lot more hassle* than the regular 11-minute rail shuttle to SXB Entzheim, and then a quick hop on Hop! to CDG.

(* Sadly through personal experience on more than one occasion!)

The problem is the TGVs are fine for travel to/from Paris but not as useful for most other trips. Its ok saying that the TGV journey is under 2.5 hours but once you factor in getting to/from the station it can be much quicker to fly unless you are travelling city centre to city centre. The paradox is that banning flights is likely to cause a shift to road. I did a quick calculation and energy use is roughly even between two people travelling by car flying so a family uses less energy travelling by car, a solo business traveller more. (Warning its much more complicated than that!) I can't really speak for France but I reckoned that travelling with Southwest Airlines in the US actually saved energy compared with driving. That said France is a centralised country and a lot of things are in central Paris. I wonder if UK policy is moving in that direction?

Looking at the UK you certainly have to consider regional development issues when looking at the demise of FlyBe which connected many regional cities. Cross Country rail can be much slower (if available at all) for many airport pairs but we are moving above my pay grade.

Will TGVs be regulated like a utility? Fine if there is a guaranteed low cost fare at all times. That is the model of some railways like the Deutsche Bahn ICE services but not French TGVs which in a way paradoxically apply the airline yield management approach. What if the absence of air competition causes fares to rise?

You could always book a route involving a connection but then only use one leg (although not with luggage - we all know about the issues with airlines). Doubtless that would cause all kind of problems if a lot of people did it.

Why?

Claiming that trains are "green" is tricky due to the huge amount of concrete, steel, etc. involved, although electricity in France is quite green due to lots of nuclear plants.
Peter47 there is a train station directly at CDG, enabling mixed plane / train journeys which really is the way things should be. Vienna sorted this out a few years ago too. London sadly still a backwater where one must trundle along in the Tube for ages to get to a train station.
The SNCF train booking site oui.sncf offers diesel-powered buses and petrol-powered car shares too, which are often cheaper than trains (although presumably less civilized, I have yet to try).
Saturation on the Lignes Grand Vitesse was a problem pre-Covid leading to 800m long pairs of double-decker trains every 2 mins, whereas still plenty of sky available.
Not sure that banning a rather small number of flights operated by CRJs and such will suddenly make a huge difference to mother Earth when China is still opening a new coal fired power station every two weeks. My $0.02, I think hydrogen or electric (or both) aircraft are the future for short flights.

How long before they ban you flying around in your Cessna or your (French) SOCATA Tobago?

New tech GA aircraft like Jet fueled Diamond's use less fuel than many cars over the same distance.