Airtravel restrictions: France below 2.5 hrs

[FlightDetent]

https://www.reuters.com/article/clim...-idUSL1N2M405W

Would be interesting to hear the arguments that pushed this all the way through ...

My original A320 TR checkride LOFT would be outlawed now. Poor folks from the Airbus ATO will now need to schedule LPL-BHX or AMS-BRU

[wiggy]

I haven't been following this in detail but it's been in the works for a while as part of the conditions for allowing government money to go to AF......I guess it plays well with the Green lobby/pushes business onto the trains/releases some Orly slots for other operators.

The basic idea is to pull AF off those short routes where there is a parallel option to use the TGV.


https://www.air-journal.fr/2020-06-2...e-5221001.html

[ATC Watcher]

French internal politics, to please the EELV (ecological) party to get a coalition in the 2022 elections ..Already connecting flights are not affected only point-to point , there will be more conditions .. Wait and see the fat lady has not sung yet on that one . .

[FlightDetent]

Is there a summary somewhere of what the regulation actually will enforce? Wiggy's link is Y2020...

[ATC Watcher]

a Convention citoyenne pour le climat avait réclamé de renoncer aux vols intérieurs en cas d'alternatives de moins de 4 heures en train, et non 2 h 30. Après un débat animé et des divergences jusque dans la majorité, l'Assemblée nationale a voté, dans la soirée du samedi 10 avril, en première lecture la suppression de certaines lignes aériennes intérieures, en cas d'alternatives en train de moins de 2 h 30. Cette mesure emblématique du projet de loi climat vise à supprimer des liaisons entre Paris (Orly) et Nantes, Lyon ou Bordeaux, mais prévoit des exceptions pour les trajets en correspondance.

Le projet de loi gouvernemental entérine surtout l'existant, puisque le gouvernement avait contraint Air France à renoncer aux liaisons concernées en contrepartie d'un soutien financier en mai 2020. Il interdira aux concurrents de s'engouffrer dans la brèche. « Nous avons choisi (le seuil en train de) 2 h 30, car 4 heures ça vient assécher des territoires souvent enclavés comme le grand Massif central... Ce serait inique sur le plan de l'équité des territoires », a argumenté le ministre délégué aux Transports Jean-Baptiste Djebbari.

If you cannot read French , use google, or basically it says : it was voted yesterday in first reading in the first chamber to cancel domestic flights that can be done by train in less that 2,5 hours( EELV wanted 4 hours) connecting flights excluded. it will be definitely amended before coming to the second vote, and in the end will need a decree to take effect not for tomorrow, and in any case it does not change much of what exists already today . Big political buzz.

[Equivocal]

I can't help feeling that the fundamental principle behind it is sound, indeed, had the European Commission had their act together we could have seen improved high-speed rail systems across the region being encouraged rather than some less useful initiatives.

But how it is implemented in France will, no doubt, be skewed by the various political needs that will have to be satisfied.

[dirk85]

Banned for everyone or just for Air France?

[horizon flyer]

In many cases quicker city centre to city centre and less of a pain. Also France has the TGV connection in many of their airports. I seem to remember AF selling combined tickets like London Lyon, then TGV to Marseille. So maybe a good idea.

[Caboclo]

Politics aside, how many routes are really affected? Are there that many RJs doing 20 minute hops or is this much ado about nothing?

[FlightDetent]

Thanks, similar to others above I was curious what the practical arrangement is. Was it for everyone or just AF, which city-pairs, what exactly is a train alternative... so many questions

Now all is explained by ATC/w #5: it's the 1st reading in the lower chamber of the proposed legislation that was passed. Thus the tough times for stakeholders have just begun as the battle for the result takes place right now ...
.. but us curious outside observers really need to wait for the endresult. Significant changes of meaning are possible even with small wording adjustments.

[CW247]

Connections !

[Less Hair]

So no more "La Navette" shuttle flights from Paris to Toulouse? How long is a day trip supposed to take then?
Or is this some anti low cost airline strategy? Could I connect on U2 to -say- some long distance flight on AF/KLM?

[ATC Watcher]

@ less hair : have you read the posts above ?
its is internal French politics, buzz., does not change much to the existing situation as there are very few less than 30 min domestic flights , main affected flights by the rule would be from Nantes, which are mostly flights for the AF/KL connections but these will remain as not affected by the eventual new rule. Orly-Lyon could be affected as nearly all connections are from CDG.
@ dirk85 : yes all airlines.(as the text reads now)

[DaveReidUK]

Originally Posted by Less Hair

Could I connect on U2 to -say- some long distance flight on AF/KLM?

The ban appears to be worded so as to exempt only connecting (i.e. multi-leg) flights, so no.

[Airone2977]

The ban mainly concern flight from ORY such as ORY-BOD, ORY-RNS, ORY-NTE, ORY-LYS, LYS-NTE. This new rule also applies to foreign carrier. however, flights ORY-MRS, ORY-TLS and ORY-NCE still remains.
The main problem is TGVs are way more expensive and not that reliable and the train connexion to CDG is a nigtmare

[airseb]

Flights involves are ones where a train solution exists in less than 2:30. Excluding flights to connection hubs and including all companies.
so LYS-ORY will be stopped but LYS-CDG will remain.
TLS-ORY will remain because there’s no alternative in less than 2:30.
as said previously, internal politics, bone thrown to green party.

(Afaik for AirFrance it’s 4 routes that were done in regional jets. Not a major problem)

[Banana Joe]

If the SNCF service is anything like the DB I feel sorry for the passengers. I commuted by train for 10 months, and not a single time was the German ICE on time. So much for German efficiency.

[wiggy]

Originally Posted by Less Hair

So no more "La Navette" shuttle flights from Paris to Toulouse?

As airseb has said It looks like they will continue - the trigger for cutting routes is if the journey can be done in under two and a half hours by rail and ATM you can't do Toulouse - Paris in under two and a half hours by train (there are plenty wishing you could).

For reasons of topography/geography Toulouse has ended up in a bit of a gap in the actual high speed bit of the French TGV network....the best you can usually do, I think, is around four or four and a half hours..

https://www.theguardian.com/business...convention-mps

Banana Joe

If the SNCF service is anything like the DB I feel sorry for the passengers.

Not done long distance SNCF that much but the local rail network around Toulouse and the south west, ( used to be the RER, now TER Occitaine) which I often used for part of my journey to work, was pretty darned good and had really good punctuality..as long as there isn't a strike..

[Nick 1]

So now people will fly CGD - BCN- NCE instead to travel between the two french city , i wonder if this green genius they use elettricity or a smartphone ....

[wiggy]

Why would they do that?

Paris-Nice is (a lot) greater than 2.5 hours by train so non-stop flights between the two cities can continue.