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-   -   Frontier de-icing oops in Nashville (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/639045-frontier-de-icing-oops-nashville.html)

islandguy 4th Mar 2021 15:12

Frontier de-icing oops in Nashville
 
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....8bab4de28.jpeg


A Frontier passenger airplane nearly took off in Nashville with an ice-covered wing during last month's snow/ice storm, the airline confirmed to the Tennessean.

The plane had gone through de-icing from Trego-Dugan Aviation, but a flight attendant afterward noticed what appeared to be ice and snow mixed with de-icing fluid on one of the plane's wings, according to a tweet from an aviation watchdog Tuesday that exposed the near tragedy.

The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating the incident, an agency spokeswoman confirmed Thursday morning in an email to the Tennessean.

Experts say ice on a plane can stop the plane's lift and can create other barriers to safe flying.

In an email to the Tennessean, Frontier confirmed "this incident did occur."



But Frontier would not say what date or time it happened or where the plane was going.

"Safety is our foremost priority and we are very proud of our flight crew for identifying the issue and ensuring the matter was addressed before takeoff," the statement said.

"We are no longer using the deicing company in question."

The de-icing company, the nationwide outfit Trego/Dugan Aviation, said in a statement to the Tennessean that "there was a breakdown in the detailed and vigorous de-icing process in Nashville."



"An aircraft that had remained overnight during the storm was not fully de-iced," the statement said. "TDA applauds the efforts of the Frontier flight crew for detecting the issue before initiating flight."

Frontier would not identify that flight attendant nor make him or her available for an interview.

A Nashville Airport Authority spokeswoman would not say how many airlines use Trego/Dugan Aviation for de-icing. The spokeswoman, Kym Gerlock, referred all questions about the incident to Frontier airlines, adding the authority only "provides the infrastructure for flying at Nashville International Airport."



Trego/Dugan said there were "rigorous re-training" sessions with all operators who de-ice planes at all of its stations.

"Nothing of this sort has happened in the past 50+ years and we have vigorously attacked the underlying circumstances to prevent anything like this in the future," the company said in its statement.
https://www.tennessean.com/story/new...ng/6917907002/

Mostly Harmless 4th Mar 2021 15:33

Sprayed Type IV without first removing the ice and snow with Type I?

ASRAAMTOO 4th Mar 2021 19:16

I suspect that the deicing crews in Nashville get less practise than those in many other locations.

packapoo 4th Mar 2021 20:28

Probably the case, just not the reason...

DaveReidUK 4th Mar 2021 20:51

Or the reason, but not an excuse ...

Australopithecus 4th Mar 2021 23:05

Isn’t there a requirement for a pilot or mechanic to visually inspect and confirm ice-free surfaces prior to taxi, or at least prior to take-off? Asking for my late colleagues killed on take-off in 1989 in an iced up F-28.

Check Airman 5th Mar 2021 08:02

This is typically done by the deicing crew in the US. There are exceptions though.

Flightmech 5th Mar 2021 09:18

2-step de-icing with the first step missed. Looks like they sprayed Type 4 straight onto a contaminated wing.

Pelican 5th Mar 2021 09:22

Yeah, looks like Type V straight on contamination. This is a mistake. This can happen. What is unforgivable is that it wasn't flagged in the post application check.

And great job for the Flight Attendant for a) spotting it, and b) speaking up about it.

RetiredBA/BY 5th Mar 2021 09:43

Yes but says little for the flight crew.

After deice and after inspecting the deicing certificate one pilot, and in my case it was always me, should ALWAYS check that the wing, stab and fin are completely clear of contamination. Each time , every time without exception.

Checkboard 5th Mar 2021 10:42

That's just not practical in many cases. If you de-ice while taxiing out, for instance.

A0283 5th Mar 2021 11:15

Icing has always been a risk of all times and all types of aircraft. It is a systemic issue that just like gravity demands awareness and attention.

If I take a database with 2200 cases dating from 1956 to 2021, there are at least 98 cases of all aircraft types where icing alone (not including snow/precipitation contamination cases) was a factor, in at least 42 cases icing was causal, in 35 cases there were fatalities, in 32 cases the aircraft was written off or destroyed, the number of killed/serious/light/uninjured 1800+/200+/100+/1600+ of 3700+ PoB,

My impression is that icing got more recognition in the 1940s... icing is mentioned in many cases during WW2... One early very good report (you could use it today and most would not recognize it as being written that long ago) dates from about the 1950s if I recall correctly, but I would have to check that. Report included a very good sketch of horn-type icing on wings and horizontal stabilizer by the incident's pilot.

The US system got a warning in for example 1982 with the Air Florida 737. The 1989 case pointed out a systemic failure of the Canadian aerospace system (crew, airline, regulations, knowledge,...) and not a specific aircraft,

lederhosen 5th Mar 2021 12:26

Excellent contribution from the flight attendant! and this is an area where in my opinion things have definitely improved with people speaking out. I am a little intrigued by what RetiredBA/BY means. The concept that someone needs to confirm that the aircraft is clean is obvious. But does he mean the pilot personally? Most of the times I have deiced it was with engines running and I am unclear how you could personally check the fin and in most cases the stab. Going back to look at the wings in inclement conditions I have done regularly. But our manuals always made clear that we were delegating the inspection in most circumstances to the lead deicer. The deicing report is also verbal and then entered on the tech log. In this case there seems to have been a clear failure by the deicing crew.

Check Airman 5th Mar 2021 13:25

RetiredBA/BY

Only in certain circumstances will the crew be required to visually check the wings. This situation is clearly an exception to that. How’d you go about checking the empennage?

FlyingStone 5th Mar 2021 13:59

RetiredBA/BY

How do you check the stab and the fin after remote de-icing with engines running?

FlightDetent 5th Mar 2021 14:08

Unless you're willing to put own age in the profile and it is within radio range from 76, perhaps a smaller calibre is more gentlemanly for the first round, gents. It may well be that during R.BA/BY active career such was the best practice and SOP, or self-preservation instinct alone. The industry develops...

IIRC there are some types where a tactile check is required before departure after deicing.
https://images.app.goo.gl/kiJbiuSZiArek8J18

For the record, I have never seen a requirement to physically leave the cockpit and go see the result post-spraying. Wrong, bad? No idea but also only 2 types on the logbooks.

n.b. The empennage pretty much flies on the angle of incidence or it could if needed. Dirty wing under EO not so much.

Pistonprop 5th Mar 2021 14:37

Was it really noticed by the F/A? Or did a passenger draw attention to it from whereon the F/A informed the cockpit? I know that if I'd looked out the window to see that I would not have remained silent! Nevertheless, good that the F/A followed up.

Herod 5th Mar 2021 15:04

Somebody (the airline?) getting their CRM right. The F/A felt able to tell the flight crew and, more importantly, the flight crew listened.

ASRAAMTOO 5th Mar 2021 16:07

To be fair, Retired BA/BY led with the 105mm howitzer rather than the mini gun when he said this: "Yes but says little for the flight crew.".
There is a wealth of experience on this forum and when shared, we can learn through the benifits of others experience, without going through the pain ourselves.
BUT, aviation changes ( and I appreciate not always for the better) so I think it can be useful for those now detached from the industry to research current practice before pointing the 105 at their feet.

GlobalNav 5th Mar 2021 16:11

This was a Gift
 
Clearly this deicing failure should not have happened. But the discovery by the cabin crew, their ability to notify the flight crew and the consequent decisions saved us from a terrible outcome.

It also resulted in retraining of the deicing company employees, probably company-wide. There were clear deficiencies of knowledge and judgment that are being addressed and probably removed in some cases.

I would expect that every deicing vendor will take advantage of this event by giving extra emphasis on how to do the job right. This is embarrassing, yes, but it is a gift.

Likewise, I can imagine that cabin and flight crews of many operators have taken note of this event and it has reinforced training they received in the past.

May we give thanks to Providence that are not mourning for the loss of passengers and crew. Thank Him also that a gradual degradation of safety has at least for the moment been turned around.


JW411 5th Mar 2021 17:01

I don't know what sort of aeroplane BA/BY has been flying but I simply cannot go along with his statement that "the wing, stab and fin are completely clear of contamination. Each time, every time without exception". Is he really telling me that every time I taxied my DC-10 through the de-icing rig at CDG I did this? Not once on a BAe146 did I ever get out, mount a 30 foot cherry-picker and check the upper surface of the stabiliser. There are times in aviation that you have to rely on others to have done their job.

RetiredBA/BY 5th Mar 2021 17:04

ASRAAMTOO

Well, I have been retired for 24 years but flew jets for all of my 34 years of jet flying, since I was 18. I have never been deiced engines running, so I checked the wings, stab, and fin from pax and service doors of my 73/ 75/76 or whatever. Seen no reason why the wings, at least can’t be checked via the D. V windows or the pax windows.

Ice contamination is a potential killer , remember the Potomac, hence my extreme caution, for which I make no apology.

Perhaps the world has moved , but in this aspect Im not sure it has improved.

Denti 5th Mar 2021 17:17

As others have mentioned, we always have to rely on others. Be it maintenance doing their job correctly (not all always do), be it cabin crew, or deicing crews. All of those are (hopefully) well trained professionals and we do have to rely on them. And yes, deicing with running engines, often right next to the runway, is nowadays the norm, has been for a long time in the area i operate in. Additionally, there is of course the thing with the holdover times, getting out of the plane, do a leisurely walk around, organizing stairs to the wing and stabilizer, climbing up there and check myself and then climbing back into the flightdeck, do the last bit of checklists and briefing and then the normal sequence would most likely violate the holdover times, especially in precipitation.

In this case i am very happy that a professional cabin crew and a professional flight deck worked as they should and assured a safe course of action.

Flying Clog 5th Mar 2021 18:29

Retired BA/BY - you have no clue how things operate these days, so please refrain from positing nonsense if you don't mind.

Obviously, we all rely on engineers on the bay, and remote rigs with engines running to deice. We never, ever inspect the wings as pilots before take off. I have personally, as a 747 captain, never looked at a wing post deice. I just want to get to the bloody runway and get the show on the road.

Anyway, it'll all slide off before V1, so she'll be right!

FlightDetent 5th Mar 2021 19:43

I second the agreement about the gameplay having changed procedure-wise. The trade-off between ability to check in person and being deiced while #2 for take off is an easy one.

Keeping a good flow of aircraft through the parking bays is helpful to everyone too, keeping the stress level low and having a beneficial effect on the safety margin in snowy precipitation.

The PAX / CC / FC team work had been praised deservedly above, so only one thing remains:

How much (little) do they pay the trucksmen, so they could not be bothered advising the job is not done. My fearestimate is that those were not trained hands who did (not do) the job.

RetiredBA/BY 5th Mar 2021 20:01

Well, may be I don’t but I DO know how it was done in my day, kept me and my crew and pax. safe for all those years, so hardly nonsense, thank you.
I, too, wanted to get to the B runway, BUT with a clean wing !

Check Airman 6th Mar 2021 08:20

Thanks for coming here and sharing the wisdom of your experience with us. Your method would indeed be ideal, but it’s either impractical, or impossible, given how I’ve seen airlines do it nowadays.

As an example, at my current airline, we deice with both engines running, and (usually) well away from the gate. If and when required, a crewmember will inspect the wing, but opening a door to inspect the tail is out of the question under normal circumstances.

mustafagander 6th Mar 2021 08:33

CRM works.
Such a great outcome that the F/A felt comfortable to take it to the Cpt.

maxxer1977 6th Mar 2021 09:57

Check Airman

As i remember they have to deice at a fixed place where they can recycle the stuff, seems glycol doesnt dissolve quickly.

ManaAdaSystem 6th Mar 2021 10:31

I hazard a guess that our retired friend did not deice very often. The one time i deiced in LHR it was done at the gate, and it would have been possible to open the door/window and have a look. If I wanted to.
The last time I went to work was a four sector day and I deiced on three of them. Engines running. No way I can open doors or have time to enter the cabin to check the wings.
That is what a HOT is for.

RetiredBA/BY 6th Mar 2021 11:58

Yes, I am retired (how did you guess ?) However, I respectfully suggest you guys read the Boeing winter ops. procedures, the requirements of the FAA , CAA, EASA, and Transport Canada. So far as I can see they are not type specific.They all relate to the “clean” concept. Except, of course for frost under the wing tank surface due cold fuel.
Then go and read the accident reports of : AF 90
SAS 751,
China Eastern 5210
Arrow 1285
Air Ontario 1363
US 405


All very sobering and all relate to improper deicing procedures, and reflect on what might have happened to that flight, if the ice had not been seen by the cabin attendant as say, at night !

...and if the cabin crew could see out of a cabin window, why could’nt the captain take a look himself ?

Coffee finished !

You might learn something.

FlyingStone 6th Mar 2021 12:06

Nobody here is contradicting the clean wing concept, just the fact that pilot inspecting all surfaces post de-icing is just not something that can realistically be done in many situations.

HOT can be sometimes as short as 10 or 15 minutes, depending on the conditions. If you can tell me how it is possible for a pilot to inspect all de-iced surfaces after de/anti-icing has been completed and still depart within the HOT period, I would be more than happy to learn something new.

Denti 6th Mar 2021 12:09

I had the „pleasure“ once being advised by a colleague in the cabin from another airline and rated for a different type that we were not allowed to take off as we had cold soaked fuel frost on the wings, while already being cleared for takeoff. After a short chat with the Senior Cabin Crew and on her advise, we taxied back de iced, right at the runway of course and with engines running, and went on our way. After the flight we asked him into the flight deck and kindly explained that cold soaked fuel frost in certain limits (black lines on the wing) is actually allowed on this type.

Knowing a little can both be costly and ultimately dangerous.

Kirks gusset 6th Mar 2021 12:24

The airport has a legal obligation to ensure de-icing contractors are familiar with both the rules and specifics for individual types, having said that, commercial pressures, boredom and being human means mistakes are made. but the ultimate responsibility for ensuring the aircraft is fit to fly is with the Captain.
Cabin crew are usually briefed in cold weather ops and in fact encouraged to look out of the windows, the wing inspection lights are not just ornaments.
Flight deck to ground ops and cabin communications should be sufficient to cover most scenarios, of course you cannot plan for them squirting guilds where they are not meant too. e.g 737 horizontal stabiliser tracks.
It is not practical for the Flight crew to physically inspect post de-icing, unless it was done on the ramp before boarding and there are no HOT issues, having said that it is again usually not practical as pax marching through dripping fluid and contaminating the interior and steps is a bigger problem.
De-icing with engines running, or one running is not uncommon is packs are off and the crew make an had about the blasting going on outside,
This event merely shows the system "works" and cabin crew suggestions should be encouraged, of course, we've all had the "know it all" pax in the cabin, "difficult decisions are the privilege of rank"

safetypee 6th Mar 2021 13:00

Flying Clog ‘Anyway, it'll all slide off before V1, so she'll be right!’
If thats for real; … or even making an erroneous statement, which could mislead others, you should first reconsider other cultures, language, or humour in this forum.

The properties of deicing fluid affect the amount of fluid which remains on the wing.
A Boeing study many years ago (737 re T1 and T2 fluids), suggested that more than the assumed 6% of deicing fluid remained on the wing. However, there was a reassuring statement that the climb performance was not affected, but no proof given.

Following initial difficulties with T4 (dry-out, gel, refreezing), several manufacturers flight tested the residual effects of T4; significant amounts of fluid remained on the wing. I cannot recall if any aircraft had revised performance data for use after deicing, but some required special procedures and restricted configurations, trim settings.
‘… these new fluids were sub-misted for aerodynamic acceptance and holdover time testing, it became apparent that the differences among Type IV fluids were greater than those among Type II fluids. Experience with Type IV fluids also showed that some fluids had unacceptable dryout characteristics.’

We cannot judge how a residual mix of fluid and contaminant will behave during takeoff; see refs below re dilution. A worst case is partial melting and refreezing of the lower levels of contaminant on a cold wing - solid ice.

Flow off characteristics Fig 4, 25% pass/fail boundary.
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aer...o_08/deice.pdf

Fluid characteristics, page 72 -
https://www.skybrary.aero/bookshelf/books/3404.pdf

Info;
https://www.boeing.com/commercial/ae...7_article3.pdf

Big Pistons Forever 6th Mar 2021 16:15

The bottom line is the deice crew told the captain that the aircraft wing was clean, when in fact it had a foot of snow on it. The FA action prevented an accident but she was the final link in the safety chain.

This in IMO, is criminal negligence on the part of the deice lead

Check Airman 6th Mar 2021 16:17

maxxer1977

Here in the US, it varies quite a bit. Some airports, you’ll be sprayed at the gate, others, at the runway. I don’t recall where it’s done in Nashville.

Marius_S 6th Mar 2021 22:42

safetypee

Without having de-iced in the US, it seems like Type IV fluid is more common there than Type II. I don't have any experience with Type IV, but from reading up on it, it does provide a longer HOT. In Norway, where I do 99% + of my flying, the only types used are I and II, and I've never had any issue with HOT. Is the reason it's used longer taxi times from the de-ice pad to the runway compared to other places?

Uplinker 7th Mar 2021 11:11

There have been some really awful avoidable crashes owing to airframe icing.

The manuals talk about the importance of a proper inspection of the aircraft's surfaces, yet in my experience there were never steps provided on the ramp during icing conditions, with which to check the upper wing surfaces. One had to do a visual check from an aircraft doorway, or ask to go up the refueller's steps, (which were never quite high enough to reach the upper wing surface).

I never got a satisfactory answer about whether the de-ice crews understood that, while the tops of the wings must be clear, the bottom of the THS is the important surface to be sprayed since it operates "upside down".

OMA specifies the need for a pre-take-off contamination check, Opening the locked cockpit door to check through the cabin windows with the engines running has security risks. DV windows, wing lights, and the difficulty of checking wings at night or in LVPs is not very satisfactory.

So we are left with the poor sod(s) freezing his nuts off on the de-icing rig; on his 12th aircraft on the ramp or through the de-icing bay in steadily worsening conditions. Is he able to give a truly objective report, and did he do all the wings, or did he miss one out? Is his eyesight annually tested?

ICEHOUSES 7th Mar 2021 12:21

Here in Europe as I imagine the USA most deicing operations are carried out by third party handling agents, most employees are payed just above the minimum wage, many been furloughed for months, many with no job security, high turnover of staff, handling agents making a big loss due covid. I’m not questioning their training but maybe the post deicing check should be carried out by engineers in these current times or at least the regulators need to inspect the handling agents ability to de-ice.


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