I can’t find a definitive answer. Anyone know?

I don't think this is covered only in this doc. Firstly, the UK airline will need to meet the conditions of its UK AOC - that will be down to the CAA. Secondly, unlesss there is an exemption I've not seen, aircrew will be subject to the same restrictions on working in the UK as any other non-UK national. Who flies the SWG a/c that TUI have used for years?

It is without surprise to see yet again the Brexit contingent brush aside the changes as if nothing has happened or will happen. At a stroke we are now unable to work on EASA registered aircraft with our CAA licences. We will no longer be at liberty to move and work in a European country of our choice as British passport holders. This is hugely relevant now that so many have found themselves unemployed. Bases have been reduced in size around Europe and British passport and licence holders have been passed by for redeployment in alternative European bases. Regardless of COVID, junior pilot promotion is now limited to a much reduced UK based platform. It has cost millions to rearrange aircraft registry in order to comply with operational requirements. The CAA has been chopped to bare bones with many ex employees now comfortably employed by EASA. It will therefore take years to re acquire it’s full and very expensive functionality. It’s no wonder that EASA won’t accept our licensing. It’s ironic that so many pilots who’s careers and airline’s successes have been based on European integration voted to rebuff all that made it possible in the first place.

There’s definitely confusion and jumping the gun going on here.

This Annex doc can’t be so one-way as is being made out by some. If it is, that’s not ‘Europe’s’ fault but the U.K. negotiators’ fault.

Here’s hoping the wording isn’t deliberately so one-sided as to be laying the groundwork for an eventual return to the EU. That would be travesty.

One question I have (in response to some posters above) is are there many EU airlines that allow their pilots to operate under their U.K. issued EASA licence? I know Ryanair and Aer Lingus make all crews get an Ireland issued licence upon joining. I doubt a full ‘FAA to EASA’ type conversion is what is being proposed here.

Didn't a large number of BA/TUI/TCX/VS pilots vote to leave as a protest against EASA FTLs?

Will they?

DHL will be fine. On EI- or D- reg.
But I can hardly see G-regs flying for instance LEJ-VIT-OPO. However: LEJ-EMA-DUB on D-/EI- reg is possible. But what about LEJ-EMA-BFS? Would they allow EI-reg to fly that route? Or only G-?

this deal is definately better then no deal. But still a major ****-show

D9009

EASA FTL is a bare minimum. All authorities have the freedom to impose stricter FTL’s. Or companies in fact. We have much stricter planning FTL’s for instance then EASA.

UK licences won't be valid on EASA aircraft as of 1st January, so the answer is no.

EASA FTL are a minimum measure, but they are also binding and enforceable EU regulation, therefore it is legally not possible for member states to require higher limits via their authorities. Companies of course use planning limits that are to a higher safety level. That said, EASA FTL was actually a marked improvement compared to JAR FTL.

Sorry for being completely off topic here.

that really depends on what kind of operation you are in. EASA FTL is very generic with a bias to A-B-A passenger operation. But Denti, am I wrong in my understanding that member states could actually impose stricter FTL’s? I always thought they could as long as they met the minimum requirements.

So no need to leave then

It depends what you mean by a "large number". I suspect that not all of the 17.4 million who voted for Brexit were pilots.

Thanks. The U.K. negotiators obviously didn’t push it for their own reasons.

But just to address the point I’d made that you referenced in your quote; what EU airlines currently allow U.K. issued licence holders fly for them on their U.K. licences? I’m only aware of airlines requiring their crew to get a licence issued from the airline’s AOC issuing authority.

In other words, how many U.K. issued licence holders are flying in KLM, SAS, Aer Lingus, etc? I’m thinking none. So this Jan 1st changeover is largely arbitrary.

Maybe this affects Corporate Jet pilots more?

D9009

There certainly were some Brexit voters at BA who claimed Brexit would inevitably lead to "better" FTLs, not convinced it was a "large number", but certainly some were very vocal on the issue.

There is a whole world outside of flag carriers and large LCCs, you know. Smaller airlines and operators are normally fairly flexible when it comes to licencing, as the benefits of operating under a unified FCL authority aren't as obvious when you have 2 aircraft and 15 pilots compared to an airline operating hundreds of aircraft and employing thousands of pilots.

I do hope anyone currently operating or wishing to operate EASA aircraft in the future have secured their privilege to do so by moving their SOLI away from UK CAA.

Yep, fair enough. Smaller operators and corporate jets etc. Not the big carriers.

I still don’t think the Licence transfer process will be that difficult once we’re past Jan 1st 2021.

As far as i know that is not the case.

There are two levels of EU „law“, EU directives and EU regulation. Directives have to be put into national law in each member state, how they do it and if they put something on top is largely up to them. Regulations are immediately binding law in each member state, implementing regulations can be issued by each member state in a limited member, the EU regulation can not be changed however. EASA FTL i a result of an EU regulation. Companies can apply for and be granted alternate means of compliance (alt MOC), and of course companies and unions can develop much more limiting FTL schemes on their own, subject of approval by EASA (alt MOC) or the local authority.

Quite a few Netjets pilots had UK CAA licences. Not just British pilots. We've had to change them to an EASA state licence, Dutch and Irish were the popular choice.
Hopefully my AME will get EASA approval other wise it's a trip to Amsterdam next year for my medical. At a guess, I'd say we had about 300 pilots with UK CAA licences.

Best Christmas cracker joke of the year. The CAA.. 'competent'

Maybe now they are cut loose from EASA, the CAA and union will be seen by the public as either incompetent or something far more sinister... Guess we will find out in a couple of months time.

a large number of pilots are not necessarily a large number of the electorate

Err ..sorry to burst your bubble...they are only effective if they are policed...they are not. That's why the CAA has never prosecuted a single airline for breaching them.
What they do when presented with evidence of blatant abuse is send internal emails stating 'get over it'. The union...really?,,' Blue pill or red pill' it's your choice.

It is a matter of time before ME3 airlines will heavily invest in UK airlines. Short term outlook, the UK will feel some pain but long term, the UK aviation industry will become stronger.

As someone who has suffered through an airline heavily invested into (in total around 3 billion € direct operational investment) by an ME3 airline: that might not be entirely good for both employees and customers.

Aaah but Brits do more licky licky bum bum with the Arabs you see (and always have done) whereas Germans were pretty new to the experience.

I hope the UK CAA don't bring back CAP371 is all I can say. EASA FTL bought a level playing field and with even fewer UK AOC's left it wouldn't be great to put them at a commercial disadvantage now. Those UK AOC's left also have the UK WTD and or Union agreements to manage the difficult parts of EASA FTL.
And Denti that's an interesting remark about JAR FTL strange that all the EU Airlines managed with it before the 'unsafe' EASA FTL came along.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that aircraft on the OE-reg have more flexible rules (for airlines that is) than other member states? With this a reason why some owners and operators are using this registration as a quasi flag of convenience.

Any one any information regarding the following?

Will it be possible to transfer a UK CAA license to an EASA License later down the road? Or does this mean all the EASA atpl exams have to be retaken?

Is it possible to have a UK CAA license and an EASA license valid at the same time? (As EASA will see the UK license as a 3rd country license?

Dannyboy39

Very efficient CAA.

FlyingFrl

My understanding is that after 31st March 2021 ATPL exams have to be retaken, and it will be possible to hold both UK and EASA licences. But that sounds like double the bureaucracy, double the recurrent training, double the fees.

I stand to be corrected.

You're not the only one. I got quite animated about it in a letter to my MP (Tory) a couple of years ago. I still have the reply that assured me that the UK would be remaining in EASA and there was nothing for me to worry about. Another letter will be winging its way to her as soon as the xmas cheer has worn off. :mad:

On initial reading, it looks like there has been a massive fudge on ownership rules to enable the likes of BA etc to continue despite not being majority UK owned. New start-ups may need to be careful with ownership rules but there is a grandfather rights clause built in for the current players. So little change other than for the likes of Easyjet who have had to re-structure to work beyond the 3rd and 4th freedoms but for other operators there is little change so long as they have a UK AOC and UK based subsidiary. (Not sure what game Ryanair are playing).
As for UK pilots, it seems that they have been well and truly shafted. UK airlines are on their knees and HMG have made it virtually as easy as it was before for foreign operators to continue to push into UK territory. they can continue to bring their own staff with them or recruit from outside the UK, either through the new softly softly immigration system, intra company transfers or in the case of Irish Nationals via the Free Travel arrangements. As many have pointed out, HMG has managed to negotiate its way into a situation where Irish passport holders have more freedoms rights in the UK than British passport holders.:ugh: And to add insult to injury, we have had our Freedom of movement taken away so even when (if) things start to improve, British pilots have less chance of picking up contract or ACMI work. More dole time or retrain in cyber seems to be the only option for the Brits. Thanks a lot HMG.:mad:

Different point of view, i guess. Back then i was a union rep and EASA, despite it’s shortcomings, was actually quite an improvement over JAR as JAR was quite a bit more relaxed and allowed airline management even worse rostering options. Of course for those coming from CAP371 the EASA rules were quite a bit worse. But in reality EASA rules were the middle ground between JAR and CAP371.

Can you clarify this point? EU airlines used to have the same right as UK airlines to operate from the UK - how is this still as easy?

Love to know how DHL LUK reg aircraft and crew can continue to operate with point to point in Europe.

As far as Im aware West Atlantic, after a take over from Swift Air(Spain) were subjected to redundancies for the UK pilots and a relocation of their FedEx aircraft to the Swedish AOC. From what I’ve been told there is also a company migration of licences to transport Malta. Seems a smart move, but if someone from DHL UK can explain why it’s not I’m sure a lot of now Maltese registered pilots would be very interested.

My understanding
On jan 1 2021 UK Licenses become ICAO . There will be a 2 year transition period for EASA Licensed pilots to fly G reg aircraft . That ends after a 2 year period . It is by no means clear what the future arrangement will be . Norwegian Airlines have a number of pilots with UK Licenses on their payroll . Many of their aircraft have EU registrations . The CAA have just appointed a CEO with no airline experience on 700 K a year . I would expect an announcement fairly soon to clarify the situation .

You would expect the CAA to be hiring hundreds of staff. But that is not the impression you get from their website, which from a quick scan seemed to be mainly looking for a range of newish looking roles, for example space mission specialists. So for UK aviators and other experts looking for a new challenge the sky is not the limit. (It looks ground based before you get your hopes up.)

Have they already found enough people at EASA or elsewhere and are ready for the brave new post Brexit world. I believe something like 200 posts were transferred to EASA. Is anybody in the know how the CAA is getting on?

And that’s the UK CAA’s reply:

https://www.caa.co.uk/News/UK-Civil-...press-release/

I’m no fan of the UK CAA (au contrair!). But I can’t really fault them on this matter.

Nothing to do with Brexit then. According to the Brexit agreement UK airlines can still wet lease in EU crew and aircraft, EU carriers can only wet lease from EU providers, but not from UK providers. So ryanair UK can continue to wet lease within the limits set by the local authority. Having only one aircraft on the UK register just seems to be trying to take advantage of wet lease rules.

hopefully UK will finally sink under its own arrogancy