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Brexit and the Aviation industry
A brief summary of the deal is out,
Heading Two – Aviation Title I – Air transport 99.The Agreement builds on existing precedent and sets out the arrangements for the operation of air transport services between the UK and the EU. UK airlines that are majority owned and controlled by UK and/ or EU/EEA/EFTA nationals at the end of December 2020 may continue to operate air transport services between the UK and the EU. EU airlines that are majority owned and controlled by EU/EEA/EFTA nationals may also continue to operate air transport services between the UK and the EU. 100. The Agreement provides operational flexibilities for UK and EU airlines. For example, UK airlines may lease aircraft and crew from UK or EU airlines and other providers to operate air transport services between the UK and the EU. UK airlines will also have extensive opportunities to cooperate with other airlines to offer a wide range of tickets to consumers. 101. The Agreement reflects the shared ambition of both the UK and the EU to cooperate in future, including commitments for continued cooperation and consultation on air traffic management, aviation security and consumer protection. 102. The Agreement also sets out the conditions under which the operation of air transport services between the UK and EU would not be permitted. Grounds for such action include reasons of aviation safety and security. Title II - Aviation safety 103. The Agreement is largely in line with precedent and sets out a framework for cooperation on aviation safety, and a process for agreeing Annexes to the agreement that will facilitate recognition of UK and EU certificates, approvals and licences. Areas where the UK and EU could agree Annexes in future include: monitoring of maintenance organisations; personnel licences and training; operation of aircraft; and air traffic management. 104. The airworthiness Annex to the Agreement sets out the conditions for the UK and EU to recognise each other’s aeronautical products and designs. For example, minor changes and repairs to aeronautical products and designs that are approved in the UK will be automatically accepted by the EU. In addition, the Annex foresees the possibility of the EU extending their scope of automatic recognition of UK aeronautical products and designs once it gains confidence in the UK’s capability for overseeing design certification. 105. The Annex also provides for the recognition of production certificates and regulatory oversight. For example, UK production certificates and oversight will be automatically recognised by the EU providing that the relevant aeronautical products were subject to UK oversight before the end of December 2020. |
As expected, UK airlines have lost their right to operate between any two points in the EU
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Thanks for that. Basically, the status quo then!
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What will happen to IAG, being EU based, and BA?
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osborne
I hope that is mutual? |
Yes, it is, a major blow to all EU airlines serving UK domestic routes. They won't survive.
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Well put! Why would Lufthansa want to fly between LHR and GLA? However those double drop legs of UK charter carriers are over.
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There shouldn't be an issue, as no passengers would both start and finish their journey in the EU.
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armagnac2010
I know. There were an awful lot of Air France, KLM, Aegean, LOT and TAROM aircraft flying UK domestic routes. They didn't deserve such a devastating blow, but what can we do about it, life is unfair. On a serious note, the LCCs did the right thing back in the day by separating their UK businesses into UK AOCs. |
After 4.5 years surely the people managing these airlines would have anticipated this and made their plans accordingly? I know that 2020 has had a huge impact on everyone, but the world continues to rotate.
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Some did. Easyjet Europe has an Austrian AOC so will be able to fly point to point in Europe.
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The present status of the UK having left EASA is, that the UK CAA recognises and accepts EASA competence, but not the other way around. It's a major pain in the administrative posterior, not least knowing it's only a matter of time before EASA adopts mutual recognition. So thousands of aviation business, who are already struggling, will be wasting thousands of man-hours on quality and administration changes that will almost certainly be rolled back within a year but probably a lot sooner.
Bonkers. |
osborne
Are there any UK airlines doing point to point in Europe outside of the UK? - Jet 2? |
PaulH1
Easy have an issue in that less that 50% of their ownership is EU/EEA/EFTA nationals - they have proposed that UK shareholders lose voting rights but I'm not sure if that is enough to meet EU rules. |
For example, UK airlines may lease aircraft and crew from UK or EU airlines and other providers to operate air transport services between the UK and the EU. UK airlines will also have extensive opportunities to cooperate with other airlines to offer a wide range of tickets to consumers. |
Don't european pilots only have the same employments rights as any other European worker?
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I must’ve read a different set of regs to many here. I’m not seeing the issue. It’s largely the status quo, no?
To those of you making Armageddon type posts, what is the problem here? BA can wet lease in an Air France plane and crew if they want. Just like before Brexit. As already mentioned, there’s no significant, if any at all, market for non-U.K. airlines to operate solely U.K. domestic routes. Any EU airline that wants to do that, will have to get a U.K. AOC. Which already happens; Ryanair, Aer Lingus, Wizz, Norwegian, etc. Also, IAG is not an airline. Someone mentioned that as a particular issue. Iberia is permitted too fly MAD-LHR under these new regs just like pre-Brexit. These regs even say personnel licensing will be recognised etc. Again, other than minor rule tweaks just to make this Brexit deal look real and genuine, what is the issue here with these new rules? |
I assume we will find out exactly if our licences will be recognised or not. I do believe it is been said the a wide range of professional qualifications will not be. Only time will tell.
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Originally Posted by sprite1
(Post 10954455)
It’s largely the status quo, no?
But other than that, yes, nothing is really changing. |
103. The Agreement is largely in line with precedent and sets out a framework for cooperation on aviation safety, and a process for agreeing Annexes to the agreement that will facilitate recognition of UK and EU certificates, approvals and licences. Areas where the UK and EU could agree Annexes in future include: monitoring of maintenance organisations; personnel licences and training; operation of aircraft; and air traffic management.
Says EASA will continue to recognise UK Licenses or have I missed something ? |
Originally Posted by sprite1
(Post 10954455)
These regs even say personnel licensing will be recognised etc.
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Originally Posted by Driver airframe
(Post 10954465)
Says EASA will continue to recognise UK Licenses or have I missed something ?
Originally Posted by https://www.easa.europa.eu/the-agency/faqs/brexit#category-aircrew-training-and-licensing-
As of January 1, 2021 licenses and certificates issued by UK will no longer be valid in EASA Member States and will be treated as a third country licences and certificates. Accordingly, as of that date a UK issued ATPL cannot be used to operate aircraft of commercial operators under oversight of EASA Member States.
As of January 1, 2021 in order to obtain a Part-FCL licence from an EASA Member State, UK licence holders must follow a conversion process as per Commission Delegated Regulation (EU) No 2020/723. |
To say that EASA states do not recognise U.K. CAA as a competent authority under this ruling is simply laughable.
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I think one needs to read the full text before passing learned comment
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Dannyboy39
The problem is not the status quo. Of course the UKCAA is mirroring EASA rules at the moment. However in the future it will divert from the alignment and therefore it will have to be treated the same way as EASA is dealing with the FAA for example. It was the choice of the British government to leave EASA. In fact you don’t even have to be a EU member state to be part of EASA. |
Sure, and as per the above we need to wait for the full text. It is a completely needless thing to do for the U.K. to leave EASA but I guess if it had EU in the name, the Brexiteers in Chief would’ve been crying foul. EASA being the most rigorous safety authority in the world.
I just think it’s laughable that despite the U.K. having some of the finest certifying staff in the world, a CAA Form 1 for example is not acceptable for a French MRO for instance, or now an aircraft would need to be exported from UK to EASA state and the whole airworthiness review programme started from scratch. Bureaucracy for bureaucracy sake. I guess there may be instances (flight time directives) that the U.K. may want to divert from, but can you really imagine a Tory government doing something which helps the workers? |
Don't think you can be EASA without being tied to ECJ.......Ergo.... off we trot to ensure UK aviation suffers and pays the price financially and administratively at every level with delays that will prevent businesses from even beginning the process as CAA will not have enough staff, experience or leadership to help UK aviation prosper.... I'm not trying to diss the CAA but after 30 years of flying, I really hope they can change their monika from 'Campaign Against Aviation' to 'Concerted Aviation Accelerator' ... We will see, but - again as others have said... The devil is in the detail and we will have to wait to interpret the exact text to see how it affects us.
European Court of Justice jurisdiction 34.The European Court of Justice (ECJ) has ultimate jurisdiction over EASA rulings. In the case of third country member states, ECJ jurisdiction operates indirectly through arbitration committees. If the ECJ decided that a EASA ruling was inapplicable or had to be modified, EASA would abide by the ECJ’s decision, and a third country member state would have to accept EASA’s modified rules. |
Miles Magister
Indeed. Though I suspect that there won't turn out to be much difference from the fairly dire predictions that were being made as long ago as 2017, and most recently earlier this year: Civil Aviation Regulation - What Future after Brexit? Civil Aerospace Aviation and Space Post Transition Period. |
I ask again. With Eastern European ACMIs still allowed to provide ultra cheap services to UK airlines using their own European equipment and staff, are British employees at an even greater risk of never finding employment again? Brits will not be able to work for those ACMI providers without a visa. In theory, a UK airline can outsource 50% of its operation out to a company that doesn't need to hire Brits for those jobs. Why am I the only one getting angry about this? There is no protection for the British workforce in any of this.
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Can anyone explain any other reason than the ECJ why Britain made the decision to leave EASA? The RAeS papers certainly don’t seem to support it. In the short term U.K. license holders are disadvantaged if I have understood correctly, while my EASA license is OK in the UK. Looks like there will be some jobs going at the CAA but otherwise I don’t get it. Could not the UK for example have remained an EASA member with the option to review this at some later date?
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Originally Posted by Jet II
(Post 10954413)
osborne
Are there any UK airlines doing point to point in Europe outside of the UK? - Jet 2? as is west altlantic goign to hit the freighters pretty hard by the look of it, the only guys in aviation that still have a job/no pay cuts or redundancies get hit via the back door.... |
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Big D thanks for replying but when I click on the link it opens a document without page numbers and which does not obviously mention EASA. There is a link in it to another document with page numbers that at least on my browser do not correspond to the actual number of pages. In short can you just cut and paste the relevant text.
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I think one needs to read the full text before passing learned comment Pages 221-225 apply. https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/re...X-1-PART-1.PDF |
Originally Posted by CW247
(Post 10954608)
I ask again. With Eastern European ACMIs still allowed to provide ultra cheap services to UK airlines using their own European equipment and staff, are British employees at an even greater risk of never finding employment again? Brits will not be able to work for those ACMI providers without a visa. In theory, a UK airline can outsource 50% of its operation out to a company that doesn't need to hire Brits for those jobs. Why am I the only one getting angry about this? There is no protection for the British workforce in any of this.
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Originally Posted by CW247
(Post 10954608)
I ask again. With Eastern European ACMIs still allowed to provide ultra cheap services to UK airlines using their own European equipment and staff, are British employees at an even greater risk of never finding employment again? Brits will not be able to work for those ACMI providers without a visa. In theory, a UK airline can outsource 50% of its operation out to a company that doesn't need to hire Brits for those jobs. Why am I the only one getting angry about this? There is no protection for the British workforce in any of this.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....79f0e62c6.jpeg |
DHLAir will be fine, thanks
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Just a thought, there will be 2 contracts to be considered, right? The withdrawal agreement from start of 2020 and the Trade Agreement from end of 2020. I think one needs to read both of them in conjunction. Missing a regulation in one doesn't mean it's forgotten.
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Originally Posted by Bonway
(Post 10954663)
Really...? Give that remark some thought.
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Originally Posted by ORAC
(Post 10954646)
Full text published by the EU this morning.
Pages 221-225 apply. https://ec.europa.eu/transparency/re...X-1-PART-1.PDF |
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