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-   -   Air India Runway Excursion (https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/634628-air-india-runway-excursion.html)

parkfell 8th Aug 2020 17:02


Originally Posted by rohitkapoor181 (Post 10856055)
parkfell

Amazing how you've managed to resolve the priorities of a fairly complex nation in one sentence. You might as well say remove Donald Trump to reverse global warming. Please let's stick to inputs on the topic at hand and leave such comments/conversations to Twitter.

What are your thoughts on how to improve the Indian aviation infrastructure?
The money needs to come from somewhere?

rohitkapoor181 8th Aug 2020 18:40

Privatize, the money will come - an airport like Calicut with a 3mio+ pax/yr would surely be a profitable bet. Governments shouldn't be in this business apart from framing and enforcing regulation, but that's a personal opinion.

White Knight 8th Aug 2020 19:04


Originally Posted by alf5071h
White Knight, TT,
CRM, HF, etc. It is difficult to define these terms, thus they can mean different things to different people - cultures, context

True. But it seems to work here at Emirates, what, with 150 plus nationalities sharing the flightdeck!

Willie Everlearn 8th Aug 2020 19:15

I think Monsoons have been a part of India’s geographic reality for at least ...
Well, for a very long time.
You’d think grooved runways would be an easy sell for Indian airlines to their government for at least ...
Well, a very long time.
Yet, that doesn’t seem to get much traction.
Looking at India’s aviation safety record I have to wonder, like Pakistan, if their might also be licencing issues contributing to that record.
From my past experience, I’d be suspicious of ex-IAF ‘Officers’ and their historic nepotism. Not to mention their actual competence level.
Until more is known I wouldn’t paint this Captain with that brush, but I will reserve judgement.



White Knight 8th Aug 2020 19:15


Originally Posted by flightleader
May I humbly request all to stop questioning the pilots decisions in this case.

The first thing that stands out here would be the decision making! Let's not beat around the bush....

parkfell 8th Aug 2020 19:48


Originally Posted by riobo (Post 10856097)
..........India's airports are crap like most of the rest of its infrastructure, true........
........Factually, most of India's wasted resources which could help remedy the infrastructure are spent on government mismanagement of funds, not on space.........if one is actually interested in looking at the facts rather than in spewing frankly quite ugly and disgusting prejudice.

As India is a democratic country, it is up to the elected politicians to decide how their resources are spent.
It is up to the electorate to decide which parties they vote for.
So you disagree; that is absolutely fine. There is no need to be somewhat melodramatic. There will be many views posted that you disagree with. Calm down. Think of your blood pressure, as this is purporting to be your first posting. Stick with the facts, and keep emotions under control.

Tell us what your formula for aviation improvement?

73qanda 8th Aug 2020 20:43

Three questions that should be addressed in the investigation;
What methods did Air India Express use to promulgate SAFO 19003 to flight crew?
Was the accident crew aware of the existence of the SAFO?
Did the accident crew receive any training or guidance related to the SAFO?
SAFO 19003



Purpose: This SAFO cancels and replaces SAFO 15009 and warns airplane operators and pilots that the advisory data for wet runway landings may not provide a safe stopping margin especially in conditions of Moderate or Heavy Rain.

Recommended Action: Directors of Safety and Directors of Operations (Part 121); Directors of Operations (parts 135, and 125), Program Managers, (Part 91K), and Pilots (Part 91) should ensure pilots verify, prior to initiating an approach, that the aircraft can stop within the Landing Distance Available using a RwyCC of “2” whenever there is the likelihood of moderate or greater rain on a smooth runway or heavy rain on a grooved/PFC runway.
A quick OPT calc using a flat runway and CC2 gives an auto brake stopping distance exceeding 3000m.
Is every 737 pilot fully aware of this SAFO issued in 2019?
If you say “SAFO 19003” to a 737 Captain they should immediately know what you are talking about......is that the case?

srjumbo747 8th Aug 2020 20:47

Willie Everlearn

Yes of course it does. Just witnessing their arrogant attitudes (not all of them) in the airport going through immigration or on the radio speaks volumes.
I’ve heard Indian turboprops saying they don’t need any spacing behind large jets.
Some of the more senior pilots got others to carry their bags up the stairs of the aircraft and you have really made me think about the nepotism.

jaganpvs 8th Aug 2020 22:37

First reports on what may have gone wrong

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/kera...home-topscroll



The Air India Express Boeing 737-800 aircraft which fell into a gorge at Kozhikode airport had landed more than 1 kilometre down the length of the runway in windy and rainy conditions.

Sources within the Directorate General of Civil Aviation (DGCA), the aviation watchdog, which is leading the investigations into the accident, have confirmed that this is a key factor that they are looking into before reaching a conclusion on whether the remaining length of the runway was sufficient for the aircraft to have stopped safely. What is clear is that the runway surface was wet, a factor that would have impacted the braking performance of the aircraft after it touched down.

Unable to decelerate sufficiently, the Boeing 737 went off the end of the edge of the runway, fell 35 feet into a gorge and slammed into the airport's perimeter wall before coming to a full stop
https://c.ndtvimg.com/2020-08/o0ng68..._August_20.jpg

https://c.ndtvimg.com/2020-08/rsjid9..._August_20.jpg

https://images.newindianexpress.com/...e_Crash_AP.jpg

lucille 8th Aug 2020 22:43


Originally Posted by SOPS (Post 10855955)
lucille

Really??? At both airlines I worked for.. TS within 10 nm of the field .. no take off or landing allowed.

No take off. I agree.
No landing? Not so much. With radar, you try to make safe, cautious decisions. Note - I NEVER advocated flying through a cell. Not all heavy rain comes out of a cell.


With those rules, your airline may as well rule out flying in the tropics during the wet season.

Australopithecus 8th Aug 2020 22:48

73qanda

Well, not necessarily. My airline does not identify the regulatory source of operational guidance or policy. So while we are aware of and adhere to the revised performance data, this is the first time I have encountered that nomenclature.

7478ti 8th Aug 2020 22:50

Let's await speculation for the accident investigation results?
 
Another accident that simply didn't need to happen. This event once again underscores the many decade need for GLS/GBAS, LAND3/AIII, RNP, and being able to land into the wind, ...perhaps also along with the critical need for assured runway rubber deposit and groove/PFC maintenance, in addition to considering installation of EMAS at critical runway locations.

The B737NG is a terrific safe jet when operated as designed, on any adequately maintained runway. Though tailwinds ought to typically be avoided, to assure margin for unexpected tailwinds when necessary, I've safely, successfully, and easily landed it many times in well over 25 kts of direct tailwind, during specific flight tests, even to up-slope gradient runways at elevations up to ~6,100 MSL.

We simply need to give this flight crew the benefit of the doubt, until the investigation is completed, and all the facts known. They gave their lives doing their best, and it's the least we owe their families.


WillowRun 6-3 8th Aug 2020 23:21

On aviation infrastructure, riobo, you've made a category error with regard to the U.S. budget. The problem isn't imbalance of priorities, rather it's a kind of dilution or diversion. Every Congressional Committee and Subcommittee empowers legislators (by virtue of their being rostered on them) to influence who spends the funds and how their performance is monitored, the result being akin to the "200 Spielbergs" situation observed when Chicago airport cops dragged a passenger off a flight a few years ago. Substitute less than top-drawer competence for cellphone vid cameras.

The ISRO budget hasn't been claimed here as wasted or mismanaged (I didn't claim that and don't see that parkfell did, either). But it's a matter of priority. With runways you admit are not up to some standard we all could agree does apply, and with the geographic and climatological predicates unchanging, you're still contending that at least some of the rockets and satellite funding should not be reallocated? - that this should not even be considered? (Not to dwell on anti-satellite tests, but....)

And solution proposed by rohitkapoor181, to allow and encourage privitization, isn't that significantly inconsistent with what your post identified as a "poor" legal and regulatory framework?

PJ2 9th Aug 2020 00:26

The recorders should be in excellent shape - do they have them yet?

Airbubba 9th Aug 2020 00:58

Yes, the Civil Aviation Minister said in his Saturday press conference that the CVR and FDR were recovered almost immediately after the mishap.


India's Aviation Minister Hardeep Singh Puri visited the scene of the crash on Saturday, where he announced the recovery of the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder, which could prove crucial to investigating the crash. He praised the lead pilot and said it was too early to say what the precise cause of the accident was.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-53706976

Teddy Robinson 9th Aug 2020 01:02

Two things come to mind.

Regardless of ability, landing 1000m into a limiting contaminated runway with a tailwind and ravine at the end is time for a go around.
These are the mistakes we are paid not to make, but mistakes are human and accidents happen.

Why on earth was this runway not grooved ?

Did people just pocket the cash and hope for the best ?



flightleader 9th Aug 2020 02:04

My bad for not being precise enough with my words earlier.

At this very moment, the facts are yet to fully surface. Instead of saying all the ‘the pilots should have done or should not have done’, let’s just explore possible contributing factors besides pilot error. Every aviation accident/incident I came across had some form of human error. Pilots, dispatcher, ATC, mechanics, etc. They flew the way that got themselves killed, no doubt that was an error. The investigation will eventually elaborate all the details.


TimmyTee 9th Aug 2020 02:15

how about we explore all possible factors, including pilot error? What does the outcome of whether someone dies or survives have to do with factual information? Don’t want to sound cold, but regardless of the outcome, the errors that were made are facts.

TimmyTee 9th Aug 2020 02:16

I also wonder how you could switch off an engine to save lives? At what point? I’d prefer he be using max reverse right up until A complete stop. If he managed to shut them down after that point then good stuff. But how would that line up with him not surviving?

Grav 9th Aug 2020 02:27

Personal and purely theorical thought: I don’t know if shutting down the engines and consequently losing all the reverse thrust is worth the reduced risk of post crash fire. I am not so sure that in a few seconds the temperatures of the engine core would drop below a safe level, not to mention the fact that other sources can start a fire (sparks cause by friction, severed wires, other objects hit by the plane, etc.). I’m curious to see in the report if the engines were actually shut down and how this affected the consequences of the impact.

Turnleft080 9th Aug 2020 02:40

PORT TO PORT - INDIA'S NO 1 VESSEL POSITION
The last prang about 10 years ago I thought would of brought to the attention for these mesa airports
to install net barriers that could be extended for the duty runway. Something that can absorb 60T at 40kts

Callicutt Kid 9th Aug 2020 02:53

Use to operate into Callicut Airport on the same type.The monsoon rains in Kerala are the heaviest I have ever seen compared to other tropical regions I operated to.
With that and in combination of poor runway conditions and general lack of infrastructure at the airport the Swiss cheese lines up pretty quickly.
Sad to see these “occurrences “still happening.
Ex AIX Driver.

Wannabe Flyer 9th Aug 2020 04:56


Originally Posted by TimmyTee (Post 10856424)
I also wonder how you could switch off an engine to save lives? At what point? I’d prefer he be using max reverse right up until A complete stop. If he managed to shut them down after that point then good stuff. But how would that line up with him not surviving?

&
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....0acf1b520.jpeg
& the stupidity in reporting continues. As is the nature there is a rush to start a narrative of making people into hero’s or villains. A post from a so called relative is going viral about how he came in for a belly landing because it was raining & there was no choice & switched off the engines. Surprisingly the media is lapping this up.

C310driver 9th Aug 2020 05:00

Thrust levers at forward stop
 
From the cockpit picture posted above, it’s clear that the forward thrust levers are at/near the forward stop (max thrust) and both reverse thrust levers are stowed. Both engine start levers also seem to be in the idle detent (engines running), from the angle the picture was taken.

It seems puzzling why some members here, are putting the PIC on a pedestal and lauding his (presumed) actions, when the reality of this aircraft cockpit configuration speaks for itself. That throttle quadrant was set up for a max thrust go-around in panic mode (evident since the flap handle is still in flaps 30/40 whereas the standard go-around flaps setting of the -800 is flaps 15(2 engines) or flaps 1(1 engine inoperative). Also, the landing gear lever seems to be in the down position & the autobrake selector seems to be set at 3. For any non-pilots wondering, the speed brakes will auto-retract if the thrust levers are advanced after touchdown. That explains why the speed brakes & ground spoilers are stowed in the post crash images.

Why they didn’t go-around earlier, from this horribly unstable approach, I don’t know (CRM? Cockpit gradient? Get there itis?)

73qanda 9th Aug 2020 05:02


Well, not necessarily. My airline does not identify the regulatory source of operational guidance or policy. So while we are aware of and adhere to the revised performance data, this is the first time I have encountered that nomenclature.
Yip good call.
My angle is that we should look closely at how the latest in-flight runway performance information makes its way from the manufacturer and issuing Regulator to the Airline and finally to the PinC. Is that being done well enough considering the critical nature of the information?
Does the PinC have a clear understanding of when different condition codes should be used? If not why not?
This isn’t aimed at the PinC of the accident flight in any way. It’s just something that needs looking at IMO, Industry wide.

mayam13 9th Aug 2020 07:07

Air India Flt. IX1344 crash at Kozhikode
 

Originally Posted by TheEdge (Post 10855504)
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....cf2b7b6573.png
looks one approach to 28, then 10 ?

The pilot appears to have done a TOGA, having done that, he should have landed at the alternate RWY at nearest Kannur (60 miles away) instead of coming back to the rain ravaged destination. The reserve fuel for Kannur is likely consumed in the two missed approaches which explains why there was no fire.

parkfell 9th Aug 2020 07:17


Originally Posted by flightleader (Post 10856417)
My bad for not being precise enough with my words earlier.

At this very moment, the facts are yet to fully surface. Instead of saying all the ‘the pilots should have done or should not have done’, let’s just explore possible contributing factors besides pilot error. Every aviation accident/incident I came across had some form of human error. Pilots, dispatcher, ATC, mechanics, etc. They flew the way that got themselves killed, no doubt that was an error. The investigation will eventually elaborate all the details.

You seem first to say that “pilot error” should not be discussed, and yet you say:

“they flew the way that got themselves killed, no doubt that was an error”.

I wouldn’t disagree with you. Their options reduced until they landed downwind & it ended in tragedy.
There are clearly other contributing factors which lead to this accident.

What isn’t in dispute is that a perfectly serviceable aircraft is now an insurance write off with tragic consequences.

Unless you can persuade those i/c PPRuNe that it is inappropriate to do so, that is exactly what the contributors will do. They will analyse the information as it becomes available. Different points of view will emerge. Disagreements will surface.

That is the nature, the very life blood of what PPRuNe does.

The FDR & CVR have been recovered. The investigation has commenced and hopefully an interim report will be published next month.

That will generate comment, as was recently demonstrated with the interim PIA 8303 report.

Dixi 9th Aug 2020 07:24

i met a guy who wanted to apply to my gig,all of a sudden he comes out with this story:
"you know i am tired of flying the 737 here ,especially during monsoon times it is really hard.
Sometimes we have to do 6 go arounds before being able to land at destination".

C310driver 9th Aug 2020 07:53

Wait for the preliminary report
 
Your question can be answered by an official source after the preliminary investigation report is published or by the airline itself. We will never know the MEL items open on that aircraft unless you have access to the Airplane Technical Log for VT-AXH or the airline engineering/technical department.

For any failures in-flight, it hasn’t been reported as yet if the pilots informed ATC or their ground operations about any technical issues affecting their approach & landing capabilities.

andrasz 9th Aug 2020 08:10


Originally Posted by C310driver (Post 10856459)
From the cockpit picture posted above...

Seems to have been removed, or am I missing something ?

From the photos seen so far it appears to have gone off the end of the runway with a substantial speed for that kind of damage to occur. I would not be surprised if the FDR reveals yet another attempted G/A after reversers deployed...

FullWings 9th Aug 2020 09:16

It would be interesting to know if AXB do much training in baulked landings. From what has surfaced so far, it appears that it was a deep touchdown on a contaminated runway with a considerable tailwind component. There is also some evidence that they were trying to get airborne again at a late stage. Since the EK accident in DXB, many airlines have put increased focus on stability and the option to reject up to reverser selection.

I prefer to think of pilot actions (or inaction) as opposed to “mistakes”, at least until something official comes out. They may have done things that were incorrect but we don’t know yet whether that was due to SOPs, technical failures, training, environmental issues, incapacitation, etc.

TimmyTee 9th Aug 2020 09:56

C310driver

Surely they didn’t do a 15kt tailwind landing, on a shortish runway, heavy, in driving rain on a smooth runway, and NOT select Max autobrake??

Unless they ran the numbers for the reciprocal prior to the first approach, reckon there was even enough time to crunch the numbers for this on that short reversal and approach?

pineteam 9th Aug 2020 10:19


Originally Posted by Rapid D (Post 10855797)
Did you at all consider that these overruns had nothing to do with the airplane type. Research all of them and post again if pilot error was a factor. The recent PIA A320 accident. Why wasn't that caused by the aircraft vs pilots? That's your theory right? Aircraft type causes accidents...


​​​​​​​I asked a friend of mine who's flying the 737-800 to do the landing computation at the exact same weather condition and runway as I did on A320 CEO with Sharklets. For standard condition and a weight of 60T the VAPP on 737 is 138kt versus 135kt on A320. The landing distance with manual braking is 1207 meters versus 1153 meters on A320. So unless I'm missing something the 737 is slightly more prone to overrun the runway than an A320.

ManaAdaSystem 9th Aug 2020 10:55

TimmyTee

Hole #1. Wet, non grooved, slightly limited runway.
Hole #2. Tailwind landing.
Hole #3. Long landing.
Hole #4. Autobrake 3.

Bad decision and/or a very poor understanding of the situation.
Now we just need FL30 to add an extra hole in the cheese.

Regarding thrust levers at the forward position, that could have been caused by the impact. Time will tell.


alf5071h 9th Aug 2020 10:56

The term “human error” should be used carefully and sparingly - if at all
 
parkfell, #110 :ok: et al,

'Error'; a word in many languages, but it has to be used in context - more often not so; thus 'error' is very emotive. If we choose to use error, then add explanation, context; failure to do so restricts opportunity for learning. *

Crews do not intend to make an error, but when we attribute it after the fact we only learn from our attributions - our biased point of view, not that of the crew, operator, or regulator. We should try to learn from 'adverse events' (link #65) opposed to 'error'.

'That is the nature, the very life blood of what PPRuNe does.'

A frustration with Pprune is that it is difficult to differentiate between simmers - want to be pilots, and some pilots who act like simmers, and other contributors with interest, knowledge, and wisdom. Then the 'wait for the report' group, who then fail to read, or understand it when published - a frozen mindset. This could be the 'life blood of Pprune' - may be good for the web site, but not necessarily for aviation - wrong blood type.

The relevance to this thread is that these 'human' features can be identified in most cultures, operations, and crews. A way forward is to try to understand 'their' point of view - national culture, operations and infrastructure, and the individuals.
We must not let our culture dictate what is appropriate for others, nor without explanation attempt to force our views on them.

A lesson learnt from a discussion with a senior airline manager during an international ALAR safety promotion (India). Error and thence blame were embedded in that culture; blame (and punishment) had to be identified for closure, and although this restricted what might be learnt it did not prevent learning in their way of thinking - their culture.
The Indian DGAC did publish materials (FSF ALAR tool kit) - their format; there was a 2 hr 'blockbuster' video on monsoon conditions - every aircraft at every wet runway in India - the message 'divert or go around'.

Each to their own, a balanced view, explanation, and justification.
'Error' after the event; risk before hand.
Risk - the amount of uncertainty that crews are expected to manage in a situation.

* https://www.ida.liu.se/~729A71/Liter...berti_2001.pdf

'… the gap between risk-control and actual risk-management. … collectively, our societies will have to agree not to lie to themselves about safety issues.' https://www.icesi.edu.co/blogs/bitac...nd-failure.pdf

alf5071h 9th Aug 2020 11:06

Mana #119 :ok:

http://www.pacdeff.com/pdfs/Errors%2...n%20Making.pdf

Ambiguity, Underestimating risk, Goal conflicts, Consequences not anticipated.

ManaAdaSystem 9th Aug 2020 11:41

pineteam

At 60 tons, FL30 the -800 has a Ref speed of 142 kts, so 147 kts with the 5 kts add. With autobrake 3 and 13 kts tailwind and standing water it will stop in 2672 m. The numbers for max auto and max manual are not very much different.
FL40 gives a Ref speed of 134 kts, and 2514 m. IF FL40 was used, a lot of pilots don’t like to use FL40.
These are raw numbers, no safety margins added and standing water on the runway.
Wet performance is very optimistic given the conditions, but FL30 AB3 gives 2191 m and 1717m with max manual.
FL40 AB3 gives 2024 m and 1610m with max manual.

Add about 3 kts and 100 m for 62 tons. The flights from ME to India are often landing weight limited so the numbers would most likely be in the region of 62-64 tons. Less than max since there is not enough space to bring all the luggage that pax want to bring home.

This landing was only possible with wet conditions and a landing at the correct spot.
Standing water. No.
Slippery when wet. Just, raw data only, but not with the required margins. Not even with FL40 and max manual.

FlyingStone 9th Aug 2020 12:02


IF FL40 was used, a lot of pilots don’t like to use FL40.
If one is landing with a significant tailwind on a 737, flaps 40 is the default choice, whether you like it or not.

Reduced flap setting into a limited runway with a tailwind is asking for trouble in any aircraft type, from C150 to 747.

aterpster 9th Aug 2020 12:45


Originally Posted by Teddy Robinson (Post 10856398)

Why on earth was this runway not grooved ?

Are any runways in India grooved? Do any runways in India have EMAS?

single chime 9th Aug 2020 13:14

Can't remember any grooving in India, even the newest runway in Delhi or the new airport in Bengaluru. Poor drainage too...


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