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40% of Pakistani pilots hold fake flying licenses: Aviation Minister
Pakistani Aviation Minister Ghulam Sarwar Khan broke the shocking news that around 40% of Pilots in Pakistan have fake pilot licenses.The startling news about the ‘fake’ Pilots was released amid the presentation of the provisional inquiry report in the National Assembly of Pakistan about the recent Pakistan International Airline (PK) crash near Karachi. There are currently 860 active Pilots in Pakistan. This includes PIA, Serene Air (ER), and Air Blue (PA). Mr. Khan stated that “The inquiry which was initiated in February 2019 showed that 262 Pilots did not take the exam themselves” and that they had asked someone else to sit the exam on their behalf. He also said that they have found out during the investigation that Pilots with ‘fake’ licenses did not even have proper flying experience. The 40% of ‘fake’ pilots also include hundreds who are not currently active. It was further revealed that pilots were also appointed on a “political basis” and that “Merit was ignored while appointing Pilots.” It was also claimed that degrees of at least four PIA Pilots had been found to be fake, according to Pakistan media. The Aviation Minister said that an inquiry had been initiated in this regard and that show-cause notices have been issued to 54 Pilots. It was claimed that some of these Pilots have challenged these notices in court. So far, at least nine pilots have confessed to holding fake degrees. This might not come as a shock to most but 40% is way more than anticipated. |
The consequences of such a revelation can easily put the kibosh on any flights by Pakistani airlines into a number of countries. Not to mention insurance premiums going through the roof.
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Probably not just in Pakistan either, fair bet that a few other countries have similar.
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I used to work with a Pakistani man who told me that one of his relatives had moved to UK using his brother's passport and degree certificate and was living and working in UK as a civil engineer despite never having graduated. Is there any way to combat such things? I doubt it.
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When I was in Doha constructing Hamad Airport, there were a lot of tipper truck drivers on site. Because of their terrible safety record, one day our chief "elf' decided to do a spot check on driving licenses and found them all carrying photocopies of the same one.
Would it surprise anybody that it was in the name of Singh |
Hehe, I find it hilarious in the context of recent surge of complaints in this forum that more often than not there is notion of "cultural factors" when accidents occurs where pilot error was a root cause.
Here you go in own words of Pakistani minister. PS This is the best part of CNN coverage: "PIA has grounded all its pilots who hold fake licenses, effective immediately." Sounds like they knew about the issue and apparently even had a list but until yesterday took no action. |
Hey posters, I know that with this story, it'll be difficult, but please comment the news story, and the facts, while avoiding general culture or racist comments, okay? Regardless of feelings some posters may have, we do have to try to stay within the PPRuNe rules.
Thanks in advance for your effort to reduce modding work! |
The Inquiry began in February 2019 and has identified 262 pilots who had someone else to sit the exams.
I assume this is referring to the written exams? “Proper” flying experience was also lacking. And yet only 54 individuals have been issued with “show-cause notices”. 40% (344) of the 860 pilots hold ‘fake’ licences many of which are not currently flying. This is an astonishing situation and brings the integrity of the whole system into question. The UK has not been immune from such activity albeit on a much smaller scale. The UK CAA successfully prosecuted an individual in 2001 who had done a huge amount of “Parker pen” flying for UK CAA licence issue. 9 months suspended sentence & £4000 costs at Hove Crown Court. His licence was revoked. Clock set to ZERO with all previous experience null and void. Swearing an affidavit to confirm hours flown should your logbook go “missing” is no longer accepted in isolation by the CAA. [ Moral of the story ~ keep your logbook at home in a book shelf. A burglar is hardly likely to steal it, whereas a car broken into for a flight bag......?] Clearly this was open to abuse by some individuals without integrity and honesty. Then there was a psychiatric who faked medical qualifications in the UK (1995) from New Zealand. A fraud trial in 2018 brought matters to light. Needless to say verification procedures are now far more water tight. |
Just saw this on AP:
Pakistan to ground 150 pilots for cheating to get licenses June 25, 2020 - By MUNIR AHMED 40 minutes ago Quote: ISLAMABAD (AP) — Pakistan’s state-run airline said Thursday it will ground 150 pilots, accusing them of obtaining licenses by having others take exams for them after a probe into last month’s crash that killed 97 people in Karachi. Article: https://apnews.com/3b9899d6f9d674fdb...ign=SocialFlow |
Are we allowed to refer to news articles published in the region ? This one is a real eye opener.
https://zeenews.india.com/blog/dange...skies_269.html |
Originally Posted by Pilot DAR
while avoiding general culture or racist comments, okay?
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Originally Posted by Pilot DAR
(Post 10820544)
... but please comment the news story, and the facts, while avoiding general culture or racist comments, okay? Regardless of feelings some posters may have, we do have to try to stay within the PPRuNe rules.
I recall there being some internal cultural transition problems in the Navy culture I flew in (early 80's) as the hard CRM lessons that had been learned in the airlines were being folded into our multi-pilot crew training. In time, it became the norm, not 'something new.' But it didn't happen overnight. |
We seem to be stuck on a specific airline in the thread title rather than the more general concern of the spread of fake credentials.
I'm not sure if this is a PIA crash investigation thread or a more general concern across all airlines. As a passenger I can avoid a specific airline until the issue is under correction but general condemnation confuses me. |
India isn’t going to be much better. A central Florida flight school was renting out cessnas and warriors to Indian nationals who held pilots licenses. They were time building. 3 chaps would take off together in the same plane and all log solo PIC. They were discovered when they all went to another flight school to do their Multi and someone made the observation that they all had same flights, same day, same destination, same tail number.
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People in that region want "something without putting the effort in" to achieve it. Be interesting if they go checking engineer exams/licences as well.
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Originally Posted by esscee
(Post 10820463)
Probably not just in Pakistan either, fair bet that a few other countries have similar.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....82db4accaa.jpg Indian arrests reveal corruption in granting of pilot licenses By Rama Lakshmi April 17, 2011 NEW DELHI — An Indian pilot made news here in January when she landed an Airbus 320 passenger plane on its nose wheel. Investigators soon discovered several alarming things: Parminder Kaur Gulati had not only made that dangerous mistake before, she also had earned her senior pilot’s license through fake grades. Worse still, she had plenty of company. A government-ordered investigation has exposed a nationwide network of flight schools, aviation officials and others routinely forging grade sheets, fudging logbooks and accepting bribes. The revelation that some unqualified aspirants have made it into the cockpit is just one of a string of scandals that have roiled India in the past six months, but it is among the most serious, potentially endangering the lives of thousands. “It is worrying that people could get away with it for so long,” said E.K. Bharat Bhushan, India’s director general of civil aviation, showing files of fraudulent grade sheets. “These look so real. It really shakes you.” Bhushan said he would not describe India’s skies as unsafe, noting, “These are only a handful of our 8,000 certified pilots.” Still, 29 pilots — including Gulati — have lost their licenses and 14 people have been arrested in the wake of the January incident, as officials comb through files from the past five years, scrutinizing the grades of more than 1,700 pilots and auditing 40 flight schools. India’s airline industry expanded rapidly during that period. From 2009 to 2010 alone, passenger traffic grew by 19 percent. There were more than 51 million domestic passengers last year, and many of them used the numerous low-fare airlines that have sprung up. The boom also triggered a rush among India’s youths for lucrative jobs as pilots. “So many flying schools opened in the boom time,” Bhushan said. “There was a lot of competition, but hardly any oversight.” To graduate from an Indian aviation school, students must log 200 hours of flying time, then pass four written tests. That qualifies them for a commercial pilot’s license, which allows them to work as a co-pilot. To take command of an aircraft, they have to fly 1,500 hours and take additional written tests, which officials say 30 percent of candidates pass. “The questions in the tests are theoretical, irrelevant and chosen by bureaucrats who have never touched the controls of the aircraft,” said a senior pilot who works for government-owned Air India and spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid jeopardizing his job. “This is why so many resort to faking their test results. It’s a well-oiled machinery. Flying hours cannot be fudged without the active connivance of aerodrome officials, aviation fuel suppliers, flying instructors and government officials. The rot affects the entire system — from top to the bottom.” Pilots suspended in the past month worked for Air India and the private airlines SpiceJet and IndiGo, Gulati’s employer. “We have busted two organized gangs from six cities that ran this racket of fudging test marks and booked them for cheating and forgery,” said Ashok Chand, deputy commissioner of police in New Delhi’s crime department. “The pilots’ licenses have been canceled, but the court has granted them bail.” Chand said the average bribe paid by aspiring pilots for a forged grade sheet was about $15,000. In India, cheating carries a maximum sentence of seven years in prison. The civil aviation minister, Vayalar Ravi, told the Parliament that a committee has been formed to develop tougher standards for verifying pilots’ test grades and licenses. He also said that online testing may soon be an option, as part of the effort to limit the opportunities for tampering. The committee’s report is expected by the end of the month. “The questions in the tests are theoretical, irrelevant and chosen by bureaucrats who have never touched the controls of the aircraft,” said a senior pilot who works for government-owned Air India and spoke on the condition of anonymity to avoid jeopardizing his job. |
So they admit these appalling statistics which likely means the reality is double the number, and having encountered some of these "highly qualified" individuals nothing would surprise me.
One thing for sure - nothing will change. |
Fake FAA licenses are rare in my experience. However every U.S. airline seems to have tales from the training building of folks using the wrong 'gouge' for the systems test and all flunking a la Animal House. Or, a story of the guy who stole the test from an instructor's desk and then jammed the Xerox machine in the schoolhouse trying to copy it (hey, at least I went to Zappo's to make the copies ;)).
Here's a pilot test cheating scandal that made headlines three decades ago. A long while back there was a cheating scandal at the Air Force Reserve F-16 unit at Homestead AFB near MIA. One of the guys in the unit was a fed and would give out the written tests, leave a copy of the answer sheet on the desk and leave the room. Even fighter pilots could now pass the writtens for ATP, FE and dispatcher. :D Somehow word leaked out and the whole scheme collapsed with grand jury indictments and military discipline proceedings. Don't know if anyone did hard time in this one but one of my friends (callsign 'JR') unnamed in the NYT article below, had his ATP, but not his FE ticket, pulled by the FAA. Our airline let him downbid to FE where he laid low until the FAA let him retake the exams a couple of years later. I'm told some of these folks at other carriers were fired, it probably depended on how many F-16 drivers were in the chief pilot's office. Here's a news article on this earlier case of license fraud: U.S. Charges Cheating Plot at Air Base - New York Times |
I once had 2 experienced captains in the sim from that general direction - it was glaringly obvious that something was amiss . I don't believe that they had ever flown the type of aircraft they had thousands of hours in and made a report to highlight the issue . Never heard anymore after it .
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As long as they have a piece of paper ( licence ) with their name on it, then as far as they are concerned they are now someone entitled and it does not matter one bit how that has been achieved.
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ICAO have known about this for years and turned a blind eye. Same as the English Language Proficiency Rating. Every Korean and Chineses pilot has Level 6.
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Corporate culture - or organizational culture - is often informed by the meta culture (the overarching cultural context). Attitudes and behaviors do not occur in a vacuum. This can all be discussed professionally, to be sure, rather than like a bunch of mates in the pub with a few pints in them. This topic is well worth the discussion, and I would like to promote the discussion. Certainly, if the problem is more widespread than just PIA, that is valid for discussion. I appreciate a professional discussion, which would be equally welcome in the lounge of qualified, professional pilots, anywhere in the world! |
Seems like you might be about 40% down on the numbers of qualified, professional pilots should you hold the discussion in Pakistan
The Problem of bogus flying qualifications is well known among recruiters outside the counties where these licenses are issued. Most are discovered during the hiring process, by admin staff, perhaps not all, I don’t know . Echoing the experience of a previous poster; some candidates are barely able to fly relatively simple exercises during recruitment Simulator sessions. Their ability does not match stated experience by a long shot , are their licenses bogus, or is it simply a lack of ability or both ? . I hasten to add this does not apply to all candidates from the region but sufficient numbers appear to give cause for concern . |
I seem to remember a Squadron pilot who prior to joining had apparently flown commercially in the US. His log books were by all accounts works of pure fiction but no doubt impressed OASC.
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As bad as it gets
This is not humorous. It is tragic. The world bodies must immediately check individual countries and airlines.
The airlines who let this go through - knowingly or not must be grounded with immediate effect. It is a good time to do this, during the virus crisis lull. Maybe the more deserving professional outfits can pick up some business. Absolutely unacceptable and criminal. Folks are getting killed by these bastards. Says a lot about the moral state of the World. |
Originally Posted by esscee
(Post 10820800)
As long as they have a piece of paper ( licence ) with their name on it, then as far as they are concerned they are now someone entitled and it does not matter one bit how that has been achieved.
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Originally Posted by Jonnyknoxville
(Post 10820786)
I once had 2 experienced captains in the sim from that general direction - it was glaringly obvious that something was amiss . I don't believe that they had ever flown the type of aircraft they had thousands of hours in and made a report to highlight the issue . Never heard anymore after it .
Just to flesh out your encounter with these two individuals to understand how these things happen, were you a sim instructor at an ATO where they came for recurrent training on contract as individuals ? Or were they sent there by an airline ? I assume they were not pilots at an airline where you worked ? |
Don’t forget China too.
https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/...t_11265252.htm |
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We should centrally record pilot qualifications and careers like car mileage and repairs. Any iPad and some central, neutral database could do it. Paper logbooks are not safe from manipulation.
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I tried to challenge an Air India 787 crew recently in Delhi airport about their decision making on the flight into Delhi (I was flying a similar route) but they, surprisingly, ran off.
Wonder why. |
Originally Posted by Less Hair
(Post 10821056)
We should centrally record pilot qualifications and careers like car mileage and repairs. Any iPad and some central, neutral database could do it. Paper logbooks are not safe from manipulation.
Unfortunately, pilots who have been terminated for cause will still get an employment verification these days. Airlines won't say much to avoid costly employment litigation if they give someone a bad reference. I can think of a few egregious examples in recent years. The pilot flying in the Atlas Air 3591 freighter crash had an abysmal training and employment record but it was swept under the rug, perhaps by the HR department. It's almost impossible to get fired (permanently, anyway) as a pilot at a major U.S. airline if you have a union card from what I've seen. Under the Railway Labor Act you get a long series of appeals and hearings and a deal is often cut along the way. Still, every few months someone succeeds. |
Ban PIA and any other carrier suspected of having an honesty issue until they can prove otherwise.
Although, to be fair, we do get them here in the west too, just far far fewer. |
Originally Posted by unitedabx
(Post 10820810)
ICAO have known about this for years and turned a blind eye. Same as the English Language Proficiency Rating. Every Korean and Chineses pilot has Level 6.
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During flight training we had an Italian, pretty much the only thing she could say in English was "ICAO LEVEL SIX". She flies the A350 now.
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Originally Posted by Sholayo
(Post 10820532)
Hehe, I find it hilarious in the context of recent surge of complaints in this forum that more often than not there is notion of "cultural factors" when accidents occurs where pilot error was a root cause.
Here you go in own words of Pakistani minister. PS This is the best part of CNN coverage: "PIA has grounded all its pilots who hold fake licenses, effective immediately." Sounds like they knew about the issue and apparently even had a list but until yesterday took no action. I would make another educated guess that there were people making money out of this corrupt system. They got caught and had to go public. I imagine the people involved are frantically trying to shift the blame away from themselves. All very typical for that part of the World. Instead of opposing Corruption - people are trying to find ways to get in on the action! That's why things never change imho Didn't their PM Imran Khan get elected on an anti Corruption platform? |
Originally Posted by flash8
(Post 10820935)
And that in my opinion succinctly and absolutely accurately nails the entire problem, it is cultural, and comes from Societies that hold very little in the way of values, the usual suspects where religion and the law are one and the same thing if you get my drift. Working for a SE Asian airline I flew with one such Captain, until I forced the issue, SOP's were not his strength, and his propensity for being a salvage merchant was well known as well as being supremely arrogant. Safety "department" was a joke.
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 10821115)
You can look up FAA licenses (but not the logbooks) here: https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airmeninquiry/
Unfortunately, pilots who have been terminated for cause will still get an employment verification these days. Airlines won't say much to avoid costly employment litigation if they give someone a bad reference. I can think of a few egregious examples in recent years. The pilot flying in the Atlas Air 3591 freighter crash had an abysmal training and employment record but it was swept under the rug, perhaps by the HR department. It's almost impossible to get fired (permanently, anyway) as a pilot at a major U.S. airline if you have a union card from what I've seen. Under the Railway Labor Act you get a long series of appeals and hearings and a deal is often cut along the way. Still, every few months someone succeeds. |
The number one priority of any government is to protect its citizens.
This PIA airbus tragedy killed all except two on board. The reckless conduct of the pilots has acted as a catalyst to investigate the corruption and forgery not only of [“fake”] licence issue, but also the conduct of revalidations & renewals to demonstrate continuing competency. This wholly avoidable event should concentrate the minds of both Regulators and airlines to get not only the ‘Safety Culture’ right, but the whole process of training and examinations by adopting best practice. Computerised exams be it FAA or EASA style. Acceptance of external audit teams through ICAO. Without that level of assurance standards will unlikely improve. The airlines flight safety depts need ask themselves but one question today ~ are we an accident waiting to happen? Those who believe a go around is a sign of weakness ( non macho style) need to think again. Heroic “Pony Express” mentality needs to be confined to the history books. The simple question crews must ask themselves ~ can the airline afford a HULL LOSS. We all depend upon each other for continuing employment. Follow the aircraft manufacturers operating recommendations. Invest heavily in flight data monitoring. The step by step process for those resistant to change must start with education ~ engage ~ explain ~ encourage ~ enforce. (Scotland’s approach the C-19 public education). |
I know of one ex employee of Airtours who faked his logbook for licence issue.
Allegedly 739 hours of “Parker Pen” flying. Eventually found out and ended up in Hove Crown Court in 2001. 9 months suspended & £4000 costs. CAA reset his “trip counter” to ZERO. All previous hours and exams : NULL & VOID The Daily Express raked it up again in 2008. |
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