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TXL to be closed "temporarily" on June 15th – is that good-bye EDDT?
Shareholders of Flughafengesellschaft Berlin today decided to close Berlin Tegel airport and let Schönefeld (SXF) handle the low number of flights during the current Covid–19 crisis. Berlin and Brandenburg governments as well as the federal government voted to temporarily lift Tegel's operation obligation. According to reports, TXL will cease operations on June 15th. All parties involved stress that is is supposed to be "preliminary".
But is it? With BER finally set to open on October 31, it's hard to see that Tegel will come back online at all. As you might guess from my handle on this humble forum, that is a sad day for me. News report (German) |
I have fond memories of operating out of TXL flying the PAA IGS. No speed limits in the three corridors. :ok:
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The closing of Tegel will be final. This way they can use Corona to force airlines out of Tegel that wouldn't want to move otherwise.
SXF is cramped and run down and harder to reach than Tegel during rush hours except by train. It's a strategic error to close all those airports for what will be two runways at EDDB for all the traffic including general aviation. |
The closing of Tegel will be final. |
It is eventually, the correct decision..
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Originally Posted by advent
(Post 10788091)
It is eventually, the correct decision..
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Ah, the weeks in TXL and all those beers and headaches...
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 10788052)
I have fond memories of operating out of TXL flying the PAA IGS. No speed limits in the three corridors. :ok:
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Well one did crash on approach to TXL in the sixties. I think PAA usually flew to Templehof at that time, at least that's where I went with them. I was based there for a while, to be honest not my favourite place. TXL had character, particularly the architecture, but also not always in a good way. The ground handling was at times a nightmare and taxy routes could be tiresome particularly by way of the bridge, which had quite an interesting incline.
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Tegel was set to be closed the moment the second runway of BER was in operation – that had been decided years ago. This can be expected on November 8th. What I thought is peculiar that they insist on the closure being "temporary" now, when everybody with a sane mind knows it's probably time for last rites.
Or would it make sense to re-open the airport for a couple of weeks? I don't see airline travel recovering to a point that SXF couldn't handle the load anytime soon. There are around 2000 passengers per day traveling through TXL and SXF combined right now. |
Originally Posted by lederhosen
(Post 10788142)
Well one did crash on approach to TXL in the sixties. I think PAA usually flew to Templehof at that time, at least that's where I went with them. I was based there for a while, to be honest not my favourite place. TXL had character, particularly the architecture, but also not always in a good way. The ground handling was at times a nightmare and taxy routes could be tiresome particularly by way of the bridge, which had quite an interesting incline.
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TXL is the only working airport in Berlin that can handle the full capacity needed. If they now close it before BER is open they again gamble. If this goes wrong again they are f......and well deserved. TXL Airlines must be pissed to move at least one more time now. This can so much backfire. I hope they get BER going finally.
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A Tegel incident a little before my time but I later knew and/or flew with every one of the players. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
And I recently corresponded with an TXL flight ops office worker who was also onboard. She said the trainee at the controls was somewhat less arrogant after the episode when he came in to file his hypo tax paperwork.
Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 9302467)
Now, this is no s**t. Or, should I say, once upon a time... ;)
Three [and a half] decades ago a U.S. airline was doing a captain's rating ride in a steam driven 737 in Berlin. The instructor was the head 737 check airman and the FAA was on the jumpseat observing. Due to the restricted Cold War airspace the required airwork was done in a tight pattern near TXL. A reject, a V1 cut and some bounces back at Tegel went well and the crew set up for the traditional no-flap full stop landing to complete the ride. The gear warning horn circuit breaker was pulled and the trap was set. They forgot to lower the gear as the check airman pointed out how difficult it was to decelerate on path in the low drag flapless configuration even with idle thrust. The PF in the left seat realized in the flare that the already nose high picture was settling too low and pushed the power up just as things started to scrape. Hydraulic components were torn off the bottoms of the JT-8D engine nacelles and they did a manual reversion missed approach. And manual gear extension followed by landing with pneumatic braking. The FAA guy was a furloughee from the airline so the incident was handled locally with discretion in the pre-social media era to protect the careers of all concerned. Years later I worked with the PF's training partner, Dale C., who was riding back in the cabin during the gear up touch and go. He was of the opinion that there was little deceleration during the runway contact and if they had not gone flying again they would have ended up in a fireball in the congested area east of the runway. |
Originally Posted by BEA 71
(Post 10788177)
All charter flights - Modern Air etc. - operated from the old Tegel Airport.
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Originally Posted by Airbubba
(Post 10788052)
I have fond memories of operating out of TXL flying the PAA IGS. No speed limits in the three corridors. :ok:
PA102 JFK-LHR-HAM-TXL PA91 TXL-STR-ZRH-JFK And all the other combos... |
Maybe
Maybe it's the correct decision, but crews who were based here know that TXL is the best in this city.
We will miss this place :-( |
When romance meets reality, reality should win. Seems like a perfect time in an imperfect world to do it. Billions of dollars are being lost every week, a common sense decision this is.
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Berlin had its moments. Last seconds of a flight and a glance right to a woman beating her rug on the brickwork of her verandah. Focuses the mind, that does.
Bullets trump CB's. Stay on centreline. (we can still say, trump, can't we?) |
Originally Posted by lederhosen
(Post 10788142)
Well one did crash on approach to TXL in the sixties. I think PAA usually flew to Templehof at that time, at least that's where I went with them.
From the NTSB accident report: https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....fda956fab6.jpg |
Probably the worst possible timing for the "temporary" closure. BER is not ready yet, however the airlines are beginning to restart their service beginning in june, which of course will play havoc with those servicing TXL. SXF is a mess to begin with. A real temporary closure would have made sense in april and may, but the relevant minister was against it, precisely to keep the military side working as that is used to provide transportation to the government and other political staff.
Anyway, at the moment the closure is not a finite thing yet, it is just a possibility. One thing is for sure, the civil side will close latest on November 8th anyway, the transition to BER was planned to start at October 31st. BER terminal 1 is certified now, but is not yet ready for opening, not to mention the public transport plans to the new terminal as well as other infrastructure still needs a few months until they operate normally. That said, in a referendum the majority of berlin inhabitants were very much in favor of keeping TXL open even after BER opens, as one airport is not really enough for the city. I know airline planners have a major headache about mass diversions in case of a closure of BER, as the alternate situation, especially close to the night curfew, is not all that easy. |
Leipzig or Hannover might be the alternates of choice in the future whenever EDDB is unable to accept landings. Mind you they now have only one single working runway.
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Originally Posted by Less Hair
(Post 10788409)
Leipzig or Hannover might be the alternates of choice in the future whenever EDDB is unable to accept landings. Mind you they now have only one single working runway.
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It is a bit off topic, but it would have been the best solution to built a new airport in the centre of the Berlin-Dresden-Leipzig triangle, serving all three cities and connect them to the airport with high speed trains. This would have been possible in the early 90´s, but patchwork came out in the end. Like a mini bus shuttle from Dresden to Leipzig to connect with the daily British Airways London-Heathrow Service.
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That's due to the federal states and their different interests and rivalries. Something like Jüterbog halfway between Berlin and very populated Leipzig/Halle area next to the railway line would have been perfect and almost ready to use. There are, even today, huge deserted former soviet military tank firing ranges available for redevelopment. But this would have been the next Frankfurt airport and national hub that none of the old players wanted.
Combined with local narrow minded state politicians they ended up with the - too close to the city - BER site. |
Well, that discussion is about 30 years too late by now.
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Correct but this 30 year old misjudgment will only now become everybody's daily pain.
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Have many (fond) memories of TXL - definitely one of the very last "different" airports remaining in Europe. Just as THF I will definitely mourn its passing, but such is life, nothing lasts forever. Just sad that they could not organize a proper "farewell" party...
As others have pointed out the move is certainly rational but also risky - they are putting themselves against the wall... but if anywhere I guess that's the place where they know how to handle such situations :O. Interesting points about the lack of diversion. Leipzig would be the obvious choice and could be arranged quite nicely with proper collaboration... so won't happen. Wonder what is the "official" plan at the moment ? |
The closure of Tegel is as sensible as the closure of Tempelhof was, moving the airport further from the city again and sacrifying accessibility in search of a grandeur and "global reach" airport that BER will not become. I had the luck to fly to THF a couple of times and leaving the terminal landside onto a city square was quite unique (as the terminal architecture which luckily we'll continue to be able to enjoy as it's a listed building).
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Tempelhof is now finally to become some aviation museum: Museum für Verkehr und Technik and Alliiertenmuseum are seriously planning to display aviation stuff there. After major remodeling of the main hangar bay. And possibly Bundeswehr from Luftwaffenmuseum at Gatow will move in one day too? Not sure about the latter. It would be some fantastic place for their Cold War collection from both east and west.
Tegel is said to become partly some housing area and the terminal is planned to be converted to become some technical higher school or similar. However Bundeswehr's own VIP-helicopter squadron at Tegel Air Base will remain there at least until 2029. Only VIP-aircraft will move to Schönefeld's new built government terminal. In the very north not close to the BER site. |
Originally Posted by Less Hair
(Post 10789154)
Tempelhof is now finally to become some aviation museum: Museum für Verkehr und Technik and Alliiertenmuseum are seriously planning to display aviation stuff there. After major remodeling of the main hangar bay. And possibly Bundeswehr from Luftwaffenmuseum at Gatow will move in one day too? Not sure about the latter. It would be some fantastic place for their Cold War collection from both east and west.
Tegel is said to become partly some housing area and the terminal is planned to be converted to become some technical higher school or similar. However Bundeswehr's own VIP-helicopter squadron at Tegel Air Base will remain there at least until 2029. Only VIP-aircraft will move to Schönefeld's new built government terminal. In the very north not close to the BER site. |
West of the Schönfeld site not at the BER site itself.
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Originally Posted by Less Hair
(Post 10789154)
Tempelhof is now finally to become some aviation museum: Museum für Verkehr und Technik and Alliiertenmuseum are seriously planning to display aviation stuff there. After major remodeling of the main hangar bay.
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Planning for a new aviation museum at this time is probably a joke. Our friends in the East of the nation, who have burned billions of Euro already, should first of all make sure their " BER " is running properly and become a modest international airport. BER will never become a intercontinental airport, no matter what people dream of, for as long as I can remember, all attempts to operate intercontinental services from Berlin have failed. As a former Lufthansa sales manager, based in Berlin, once said, the whole East is a cheap ticket market. It is rather suited to carriers like Easyjet, which already is sort of a flag carrier in the region.
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Not anymore. There are a lot of small companies in Berlin that have passed the startup phase and are now profitable, growing and generate business travel especially to the US. IT companies especially. Even Siemens is moving back to Siemensstadt their prewar HQ now.
I don't see Berlin becoming a global hub but there will be business routes viable especially to Asia. They are closer to Asia compared to western Europe. Berlin still needs to catch up with tens of years of lost development when it was divided and isolated. But it does recover surprisingly fast. Finally not by state aid programs only but more and more by private investments. There are MANY new asian company people in Berlin now, it is dynamic so to say. Give it another twenty years and it's a global business place again. |
Î hope you are right, Less Hair, your judgment regarding 20 years sounds realistic. What is forgotten very often is the fact that to make a long haul route profitable you have to fill 200 seats or more every day, depending on the size of aircraft, 365 days every year. You can only achieve this with a feeder service, which, in this case, would mean to divert feeder traffic from Frankfurt and from Munich. I doubt they would surrender a single passenger to BER.
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As posted above intercontinental flights work best with a hub. Lufthansa group already has two in Germany, and three more nearby if you count Brussels, Vienna and Zurich. Flights to other airline's hubs for example in the Middle East and USA will almost certainly be a feature of Berlin. But Lufthansa ditching Munich to hub and spoke in Berlin looks highly improbable, particularly as Munich is much closer to Italy which has been a major feeder of transfer passengers. The upside with SXF over TXL should be the integration of better onward travel links particularly long distance rail. TXL was pretty limited with only bus transport into the city or to the nearest underground station, which was a few kilometres away.
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LH will not do it. That's no surprise. They prefer to route Berlin passengers through their own existing hubs.
However this leaves some of the few developing markets in Germany to other competitors. At least the airport to do it will finally be there now. It will not be a formal legacy airline fortress hub it will be p-t-p flights by different players. But with spoke routes connecting throughout Europe. And this is what makes LH nervous. Remember when EK wanted traffic rights to fly to Berlin? |
Indeed. Berlin already had direct connections to Beijing and Singapore before Corona, as well as a few US flights. I do agree that there won't be a hub in Berlin, there is neither an airline willing to make the case nor really the terminal for that, the new BER is already too small if measured at 2018 traffic levels, even with the hastily developed Terminal 4 and the decision to keep the old SXF terminals open for ryanair and wizzair (complete lunacy, but then, it is berlin...). And yes, of course part of that is the tourist and party crowd, but an increasing amount of passengers is there for business reasons, after all berlin has a very vibrant startup and IT scene right now, it is not really a surprise that Tesla opens its european design and development center in the city, not to mention the new factory right outside of it (and very close to BER).
But of course, the city still has a lot of catching up to do, after all it was basically closed down for business for around 40 years. |
Originally Posted by BEA 71
(Post 10789254)
Planning for a new aviation museum at this time is probably a joke. Our friends in the East of the nation, who have burned billions of Euro already, should first of all make sure their " BER " is running properly and become a modest international airport. BER will never become a intercontinental airport, no matter what people dream of, for as long as I can remember, all attempts to operate intercontinental services from Berlin have failed. As a former Lufthansa sales manager, based in Berlin, once said, the whole East is a cheap ticket market. It is rather suited to carriers like Easyjet, which already is sort of a flag carrier in the region.
Then again, I'd label the connections to China, Qatar and the UAE (Aby Dhabi, by AB) as pretty "intercontinental", too. Then there is the EWR-flights by UA and YYZ (seasonally) by Rouge. Tegel lacks the parking-space for more intercontinental jets, which is the main constraint for long-haul. |
Toryu the Qatar and United routes are the flights to other airline's hubs I mentioned earlier. The Air Berlin flights may have had reasonable load factors, but their yield is unknown. Given Air Berlin's losses over the years it is unclear how much money these and a lot of other routes were making. It is irrelevant now because there is no equivalent German airline likely to step in. Norwegian or someone similar might have given it a go in different times. But right now everyone is just scrambling to survive and starting a lot of new services is likely postponed to the indeterminate future.
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