Bombardier clocking out of aviation
https://www.flightglobal.com/air-tra...136534.article
Looks like (a) Bombardier is completely disappointed in aviation business and is leaving, and (b) Textron will now own Cessna, Beechcraft, and Bombardier. Will be a strong manufacturer provided its approved by anti-trust authoritires. VERY surprising move from Bombardier considering how good the A220 is. And if they think their transportation division will run smoothly in the rail segment, they are in for a huge surprise. They don't have one product that doesn't have at least two competitors. And if bailing out is their reaction to tight competition, how long till they put the entire company on a garage sale? |
Trains
The new rolling stock hasn’t made a good impression in German speaking Europe - lots of teething problems.
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Originally Posted by ProPax
(Post 10680782)
https://www.flightglobal.com/air-tra...136534.article
Looks like (a) Bombardier is completely disappointed in aviation business and is leaving, and (b) Textron will now own Cessna, Beechcraft, and Bombardier. Will be a strong manufacturer provided its approved by anti-trust authoritires. VERY surprising move from Bombardier considering how good the A220 is. And if they think their transportation division will run smoothly in the rail segment, they are in for a huge surprise. They don't have one product that doesn't have at least two competitors. And if bailing out is their reaction to tight competition, how long till they put the entire company on a garage sale? Arrogant company (weird stock class for founding Beaudoin family, invisible CEO that is paid way too much for someone who just sells divisions, the list goes on) that bit off more than they could chew. Will now be Alstom-Bombardier or something similar. If they would have stuck to trains and business jets (and they should have kept BRP) they would be ok but delusions of grandeur. No military procurement going their way as opposed to Boeing and EADS was always going to be a big issue since they would always be accused of getting 'subsidies'. Don't get me wrong, this company is a master of getting handouts at various levels of government here in Canada but that particular double standard always grated me the wrong way. End of an era, I hope Montreal still has an aerospace industry after all this. |
Originally Posted by Twitter
(Post 10680955)
The new rolling stock hasn’t made a good impression in German speaking Europe - lots of teething problems.
Laurence |
Originally Posted by Twitter
(Post 10680955)
The new rolling stock hasn’t made a good impression in German speaking Europe - lots of teething problems.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/202...star_web_ymbii |
Originally Posted by admiral ackbar
(Post 10681014)
...weird stock class for founding Beaudoin family, invisible CEO...
Originally Posted by admiral ackbar
(Post 10681014)
Will now be Alstom-Bombardier or something similar.
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Truly the end of an era but debt has sunk the company. Quebec already bailed them out once and it’s not happening again. They have no way to meet upcoming repayments without selling. Even then they might come up short. The PTB burned this company into the ground. Really sad for this once shining star of Canadian aerospace. What’s left? Floatplanes, Otters and Dash.
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I'd bet on Hitachi or Kawasaki Refer Post 3: Textron IG |
Originally Posted by ProPax
(Post 10681031)
Both are unknown to me. You mind to elaborate about stock class and "invisible" CEO?
I'd bet on Hitachi or Kawasaki. As to the invisible CEO, he is compensated well above average (the previous CEO was the grandson of the founder and attended about 4 board meetings a year while pulling a multi-million dollar salary), gets billions from the government but is never around to answer tough questions when there are layoffs, etc. Company used to be admired by the people here but now that sympathy is gone. I have linked one example of egregious behaviour (not unique amongst CEOs granted) amongst many. This CEO was hailed as a saviour and an outsider but all he has done in the last few years is divest, divest, divest and collect bonuses. Don't need to be paid millions to do that! https://igopp.org/en/cppib-backs-inv...are-structure/ https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/bom...plan-1.5112398 This is a good recap of the whole ordeal for QC and CAN taxpayers https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...lout-1.5453012 The PTB burned this company into the ground. |
Originally Posted by admiral ackbar
(Post 10681064)
PTB?
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Originally Posted by moosepig
(Post 10681071)
Powers That Be?
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Originally Posted by l.garey
(Post 10681019)
Neither has it in French-speaking Switzerland. Due for delivery in 2016, the final date is now expected 2021 - and access for wheelchairs has still not been fully resolved.
Laurence https://www.qt.com.au/news/queenslan...ts-ne/3359054/ |
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Hmmm, a 1.5 bill bailout to save the company from a rogue take over and massive layoffs and they vote themselves a 50 percent extra bonus and then lay off the workers anyway.
Then to top it, the government gives them another 372 mill. The sheer arrogance of these people is shocking. After reading the facts, I hope the company dies a quick death. Perhaps they can go back to snow mobiles again and make a go of it. Just wow Fog |
Originally Posted by Fogliner
(Post 10681348)
Hmmm, a 1.5 bill bailout to save the company from a rogue take over and massive layoffs and they vote themselves a 50 percent extra bonus and then lay off the workers anyway.
Then to top it, the government gives them another 372 mill. The sheer arrogance of these people is shocking. After reading the facts, I hope the company dies a quick death. Perhaps they can go back to snow mobiles again and make a go of it. Just wow Fog Oh don't worry about the snowmobile division, Seadoo/personal watercraft division and motorcycle division all known as part of the BRP group, because they are doing very well... In fact they used to be part of the global company until the "family" bought them outright from the main company in a shady deal which is now fully controlled by the family and making money. BTW, Bellemare the CEO, got a $26M bonus while asking for government help/subsidies to help them with their debts. |
Originally Posted by Old Dogs
(Post 10681277)
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Originally Posted by Old Dogs
(Post 10681277)
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Originally Posted by ProPax
(Post 10681513)
Based on that article alone, I'd say, thank you, Quebec. If I understand it correctly, Quebec is so indignated by spending 1.3bln on the company when it was in trouble that they refuse to support it when it's on the brink of making billions on a successful if risky project. Whatever the margin notes are (CEO, bonuses, etc), it looks like an unprecedentedly obtuse move on their side. Killing a goose two days before it starts laying golden eggs. That's exactly what happened to Airbus, only France and Germany persevered and now they have a successful aircraft manufacturer.
That killed the project and forced the sale of the now Airbus 220. Few products can survive a 292% tariff. 😏 https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...st-bombardier/ |
Originally Posted by Old Dogs
(Post 10682199)
No doubt the management made a lot of mistakes, however, America, at Boeings request, implemented a 292% tariff on the C-Series.
That killed the project and forced the sale of the now Airbus 220. Few products can survive a 292% tariff. 😏 Sorry, but that tariff mess had minimal long term affect on Bombardier's failure. |
Originally Posted by tdracer
(Post 10682205)
That tariff was overturned and removed well before deliveries were scheduled to start, and years before Bombardier gave the C-series to Airbus.
Sorry, but that tariff mess had minimal long term affect on Bombardier's failure. Pease read the attached Seattle Times article. |
Wasn't me that said it, it was the Seattle Times.
Last time I checked they were American, ..... no? |
Originally Posted by Old Dogs
(Post 10682199)
No doubt the management made a lot of mistakes, however, America, at Boeings request, implemented a 292% tariff on the C-Series.
That killed the project and forced the sale of the now Airbus 220. Few products can survive a 292% tariff. 😏 https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...st-bombardier/ |
The tariff announcement was made in Sept/2017 and finalized later that year. It would be disingenuous to suggest the tariff only existed for 30 days when the damage was done months before. While there might be some blame to lay at the feet of Quebec comparing Bombardier to AB is another fallacy. Both companies where in completely different positions at the government bailout juncture.
Bombardier suffered death by a thousand spears. The tariff only amount to a few dozen of those. |
Jobs in QC are "a" factor
Seattle Times article notes that acquisition by Airbus also granted AB "option" to buy out remaining ownership interests held, after the AB deal, by Bombardier and Quebec government. Without any access to the pertinent transaction documents - and while accepting as accurate the news reporting as far as it goes - what conditions for exercise of that option may exist at present, as opposed to what was projected for 2026 as referenced in the article, we can only guess.
Probably the CAQ party currently in charge of Quebec government would find nice advantage in giving a superior performance on the matter of retaining good, well-paying jobs in the province, as comparrd to Trudeau's party rather botching similar interests with engineering firm SNC-Lavalin. And quite plausibly there is a path forward that could work out well. Instead of buying the interest AB didn't originally acquire, it should consider a modified consortium arrangement. The jet reportedly is a strong seller, correct? - and it is in the market ahead of other potential rivals. Don't shift production to Mobile - Quebec's aerospace heritage and its accomplished workforce not only match up well but surpass even strong resources in Mobile. Use an "earn-out" structure for taking a greater ownership interest now, and a reconfigured option later on. The more revenue and earnings, the more paid to Bombardier and QC for the fractional additional interest conveyed now, as well as under the later-deferred option. It's innovative as a structure if you want to call it that, but it's really about dropping the pretense of resolving "who did what to whom" until now and instead getting on with, you know, the business of building airplanes. |
Originally Posted by WillowRun 6-3
(Post 10682995)
Instead of buying the interest AB didn't originally acquire, it should consider a modified consortium arrangement.
It's innovative as a structure if you want to call it that. |
However are Bombardier, and in the background the QC Province, bargaining smartly enough? Of course if there is no business incentive for AB, then it can drive the reportedly imminent deal to their own optimal terms - I wouldn't dispute that.
But allow a reference to the prior deal. Press reports indicated that AB was becoming obligated to bring its worldwide marketing, sales and support, and presence to bear in favor of the A220 program. Has AB done that sufficiently, and in accord with and fulfillment of the deal's terms (assuming the contract and related documents from the original deal, in the hands of a competently assertive attorney, provide a realisitic basis for "pushing back" on AB)? From QC's perspective, one could realistically expect that no stone will go unturned in endeavoring to keep jobs in aerospace here. AB has plenty of finance capacity, or so its apparently unblinking response to a four billion dollar civil penalty would suggest. And QC, and more broadly Canada (and its friends) could have pretty long memories. Not least the intensity of loyalty to the French-speaking tradition is easy to underestimate - but the sting when resentment is applied is not easily forgotten. I don't know what the deal documents from the first AB deal say, but I do know that the entire earlier deal occurred in the grips of a strange, totally uncalled-for Tariff Delusional Fever from someplace south of Mirabel and Dorval, and it stands to reason there is leverage to be found from that earlier, hasty or hasty-seeming deal, if wise business people only will look for it. (Notice, no possible wisdom is claimed for any lawyers, SLF here included.) |
Scoop!
I'm going to say that Bombardier is going to sell their train division and keep the Business Jet division. |
An interesting and detailed read.
https://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...ier-everything https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....79e34be448.png |
Great write up from the Gazette. Yup, death by a thousand spears. Big economic hit to Quebec and Montreal. Sad.
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https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....3876d75b83.png
QUOTE: "Adieu, A220. Farewell, commercial aviation. Bombardier Inc. is transferring its 33.6-per-cent stake in the partnership that builds the plane formerly known as the C Series to Airbus SE and the government of Quebec, the companies said in a statement issued early Thursday. Airbus paid Bombardier $591 million to boost its stake to 75 per cent, while Quebec now holds the remaining 25 per cent. The deal, which is effective immediately, cements Bombardier’s exit from commercial aerospace. It also frees the Montreal-based manufacturer of future capital requirements to Airbus Canada LP, as the venture is called, just as production is ramping up. Bombardier put the future contributions at US$700 million." Full article https://montrealgazette.com/business...series-chapter |
Quebec’s only option and it’s a good one. They are positioned for a ROI while saving some jobs and getting rid of Bombardier’s corporate malfeasance impacting their bailout money. Not what they hoped for but the best they can do now.
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Not to worry,those poor exec's will do fine on the 30 million bonus they voted themselves after the last fiasco.
Surprised that JT isn't trying to throw some more bonus money their way. Fog |
The Beaverton (a Canadian satirical news outlet) sums things up well: https://www.thebeaverton.com/2020/02...-a-jet-engine/
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WSJ reporting Bombardier in preliminary transaction, to be announced Monday if terms completed, to sell train unit to Alstom, for reported approx. $7 billion.
If completed (per Journal reporting) this deal would mean recently reported talks with Textron for sale of business jet unit would be terminated. |
I can't keep up!
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...ary+17%2C+2020 |
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So the CSeries almost took Bombardier bankrupt
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Originally Posted by The Range
(Post 10689963)
So the CSeries almost took Bombardier bankrupt
Just terrible for those poor exec's, how does one survive on a measly 30 million bonus? Maybe another bonus for unloading the rail as well. Sad fog |
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